why not a larger rotary?
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: Czech republic
This is why I ask, The pistion data is nothing new for me.
The question still stands. I would assume you know what peak torque/mean torque is, how did he figure this out for a rotary? Don't get me wrong I know who he is but the math on diminishing returns of Peak vs Mean torque, one would think, would be less than how it has been graphed. It looks to me as if he is counting the rotary as a 2 stroke and using the rotational difference between a piston engine to figure out that the 4 rotor has the highest mean torque.
You do also know that passing the peak/mean ratio will still grant you positive results?
For automotive use the I6 requires little to no internal balancing just as the v12. I4 and V8's are easy to balance internally and V12 engines where used for the extra power output over there smaller counter part and a stunningly smooth running engine. V12 engines have perfect even and odd harmonic balance making them very smooth but with the higher peak/mean than the I6 it is even more so. Engines with more than 12 cylinders are usually not used in cars due to the cost of making them run smooth enough for use in an auto is grater than the NOW DIMINISHING returns of the added cylinders. notice the now diminishing returns.
For you the cost may not be your thing but like Veyron you hate just due to its auto maker more power can be made in a smoother engine with a longer life.
So what ever.
The question still stands. I would assume you know what peak torque/mean torque is, how did he figure this out for a rotary? Don't get me wrong I know who he is but the math on diminishing returns of Peak vs Mean torque, one would think, would be less than how it has been graphed. It looks to me as if he is counting the rotary as a 2 stroke and using the rotational difference between a piston engine to figure out that the 4 rotor has the highest mean torque.
You do also know that passing the peak/mean ratio will still grant you positive results?
For automotive use the I6 requires little to no internal balancing just as the v12. I4 and V8's are easy to balance internally and V12 engines where used for the extra power output over there smaller counter part and a stunningly smooth running engine. V12 engines have perfect even and odd harmonic balance making them very smooth but with the higher peak/mean than the I6 it is even more so. Engines with more than 12 cylinders are usually not used in cars due to the cost of making them run smooth enough for use in an auto is grater than the NOW DIMINISHING returns of the added cylinders. notice the now diminishing returns.
For you the cost may not be your thing but like Veyron you hate just due to its auto maker more power can be made in a smoother engine with a longer life.
So what ever.
but back on topic.
Could you share some ideas how would you build or couple e-shaft for such 6 rotor?
been working and i think im getting sick 
not on par with what i would like to post but here you go.
Edit: I should note the missing intermediate housings are unmodified and should clear as they do in other rotarys, and i said "with" instead of "width"
not on par with what i would like to post but here you go.
Edit: I should note the missing intermediate housings are unmodified and should clear as they do in other rotarys, and i said "with" instead of "width"
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Austin TX.
comon get real,, all this stuff is worse than math class!
nobody is ever gonna manufacture somthin, like what you guys are talkin about!
its all theory and conjecture, there are much better ways of makin a new type power unit.
mazda has it, as far as its going, to fit into real life, at a cost that real people will go for!
nobody is ever gonna manufacture somthin, like what you guys are talkin about!
its all theory and conjecture, there are much better ways of makin a new type power unit.
mazda has it, as far as its going, to fit into real life, at a cost that real people will go for!
So the three sets of eccentric lobes would be 120* apart? Do the four rotor guys use splines? Good tight fitting splines like you have drawn are a bitch to get right (from a machinists point of view). It's hard to get them to go together easy and have zero slop. So many surfaces and so much surface area. Good for load, I know, but such a bitch to make precise. Most axles and such have a bit more clearance than one would want for a crankshaft. I think.
lol.. ya well they say that about instant center as well. The modern world revolves around theory and conjecture, the only people who know any thing know that they know nothing.
The mazda one is a spline type but most of the kits have a keyway https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=114 link to jantor's build post 114. Splines are not really hard, the just have a SLOW feed rate and it takes forever to finish a part.
So the three sets of eccentric lobes would be 120* apart? Do the four rotor guys use splines? Good tight fitting splines like you have drawn are a bitch to get right (from a machinists point of view). It's hard to get them to go together easy and have zero slop. So many surfaces and so much surface area. Good for load, I know, but such a bitch to make precise. Most axles and such have a bit more clearance than one would want for a crankshaft. I think.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
Although i like your design witch simplify assembly and reduce the need to modify center plates. but the only issue i have with this design is Shaft flex in areas of the Un modded center plates witch reduce support of the shaft and may cause flex.
okay now i may have another issue, is the double ended stationary gear bearing.from my understanding of after market 4 rotor engines is the fact that they use machined OEM front stationary gear and bearing for the modded center plates. and judging from the pics, only one bearing and stationary gear can be fitted in the plate and if by an chance you were able to mod the oem front bearing to except the second stationary gear. i think it may cause bearing structural problems. so the solution for this problem is to design and machine yourself the double ended gear and bearing.
P.S although i have other suggestions for your design...i just wanted to keep this post simple and not hurt peoples eye's with my dribble
This is 10 minutes of thought on a 6 rotor, I have wanted one for a long time but given the rarity of 10a parts and the cost involved I never put a lot of time into thinking how to implement it and im sure there are lots of things that can be improved. I have ideas on how to work out some of the problems but again as I, nor most any of us have the parts or cash to build such a beast just put the basics out there. Shaft flex should not be to bad the 3 rotor is made like this and they have *from my understanding* more problems with twist than flex.
Rotary Enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 862
Likes: 0
From: Austin TX.
givin a little thought to your project,
it will require one helluva ECU, by the time one chamber fires the shaft twist will throw the end ignition way out of timing, and things like spark scatter and ignition phenomen, you havent even started to think about yet!
the lube system itself should be interesting, to say the least
how many blowups before it runs at a high output hp?
the money it would take , will be scary!
anyway i wish you good luck on it,, and we will be waitin for results!
it will require one helluva ECU, by the time one chamber fires the shaft twist will throw the end ignition way out of timing, and things like spark scatter and ignition phenomen, you havent even started to think about yet!
the lube system itself should be interesting, to say the least
how many blowups before it runs at a high output hp?
the money it would take , will be scary!
anyway i wish you good luck on it,, and we will be waitin for results!
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
givin a little thought to your project,
it will require one helluva ECU, by the time one chamber fires the shaft twist will throw the end ignition way out of timing, and things like spark scatter and ignition phenomen, you havent even started to think about yet!
the lube system itself should be interesting, to say the least
how many blowups before it runs at a high output hp?
the money it would take , will be scary!
anyway i wish you good luck on it,, and we will be waitin for results!
it will require one helluva ECU, by the time one chamber fires the shaft twist will throw the end ignition way out of timing, and things like spark scatter and ignition phenomen, you havent even started to think about yet!
the lube system itself should be interesting, to say the least
how many blowups before it runs at a high output hp?
the money it would take , will be scary!
anyway i wish you good luck on it,, and we will be waitin for results!
All this thinking is making my fragile Brain hurt
very good point's all around,i think the safest bet for an increased displacement rotary is the upcoming 16x engine. witch will finally use aluminum side plates and direct injection
so when it finally comes out,the after market rotary guru's can manufacture 3 or 4 rotor shafts for this puppy.
so just image 32X 4 rotor with direct injection and....with peripheral port intake,exhaust..
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
I know it has merit and do like it but it need's more work...
Current HP for a 13b renesis with peripheral port intake and side port exhaust tested by racing beat is 264hp,that's like a 50hp loss compared to regular 13b pp.
however??? if they have ported the exhaust port and use IDA style electronic fuel injection throttle body instead of the weber,then we might have something
oh!! and just for an added measure how about billet aluminum rotor's
There's about 120+ hp difference, not 50. All motor guys are making upwards of 350-400 hp to the wheels in 13bpport with peripheral type exhaust. Now, how much merit is that?
I'm making almost as much power with my 12abp, than the renesis pport.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
The side port exhaust don't even come close to flowing as much as a peripheral port exhaust.
There's about 120+ hp difference, not 50. All motor guys are making upwards of 350-400 hp to the wheels in 13bpport with peripheral type exhaust. Now, how much merit is that?
I'm making almost as much power with my 12abp, than the renesis pport.
There's about 120+ hp difference, not 50. All motor guys are making upwards of 350-400 hp to the wheels in 13bpport with peripheral type exhaust. Now, how much merit is that?
I'm making almost as much power with my 12abp, than the renesis pport.
First off I'm calling B.S on the 350-400 hp p-port 13b's without nos. 320-330 with good tune then i can see it,unless your using MFR type housings with 3 spark plugs and using 787b like intake???
However i do agree that if you want all out horse power,then all peripheral is King!!!!
13B
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: cali/kansas
and it will be along time before we see a Top Fuel car be beat in the 1000ft drag race.
about a month ago NEW record set 307mph, in 3.8tenths seconds, in 1000ft.
now how you gonna beat that, goes against the laws of physics, engineers all over the world, sayin ,NO way!
and with ancient American technology, V8 two valve , push rods, from an engine designed and sold in 1952.
course gives ya somthin to shoot for!
about a month ago NEW record set 307mph, in 3.8tenths seconds, in 1000ft.
now how you gonna beat that, goes against the laws of physics, engineers all over the world, sayin ,NO way!
and with ancient American technology, V8 two valve , push rods, from an engine designed and sold in 1952.
course gives ya somthin to shoot for!
Maybe you haven't heard of the hydrogen peroxide powered cars.
Look up Kitty O'neil.
Ran the 1/4 mile in 3.22 seconds @ 412 MPH.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: Czech republic
I know it has merit and do like it but it need's more work...
Current HP for a 13b renesis with peripheral port intake and side port exhaust tested by racing beat is 264hp,that's like a 50hp loss compared to regular 13b pp.
however??? if they have ported the exhaust port and use IDA style electronic fuel injection throttle body instead of the weber,then we might have something
oh!! and just for an added measure how about billet aluminum rotor's
Current HP for a 13b renesis with peripheral port intake and side port exhaust tested by racing beat is 264hp,that's like a 50hp loss compared to regular 13b pp.
however??? if they have ported the exhaust port and use IDA style electronic fuel injection throttle body instead of the weber,then we might have something
oh!! and just for an added measure how about billet aluminum rotor's
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: Czech republic
First off I'm calling B.S on the 350-400 hp p-port 13b's without nos. 320-330 with good tune then i can see it,unless your using MFR type housings with 3 spark plugs and using 787b like intake???
However i do agree that if you want all out horse power,then all peripheral is King!!!!
However i do agree that if you want all out horse power,then all peripheral is King!!!!
320-330 BHP was back in the 80s in endurance engines at only 8,000 Rpms. R26B had 448 lb.ft of torque-again, endurance engine. Through port timing, intake, exhaust tuning, VE% curve can be altered/shifted... so 13B with equal BMEP as R26B can have over 420 BHP at only 10,000 RPMs...
Firstly, engine was tested by Mazdatrix, secondly Iīm sure nillahcaz wasnīt talking about outright power-If you looked at video of this engine on dyno, you would see that idle is like in side intake/peripheral exhaust "stock" engine. But torque is very high and that 264 HP is achieved at only 7500 RPMs-reasonably powerful N/A rotary which can be quiet down.
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
Firstly, engine was tested by Mazdatrix, secondly Iīm sure nillahcaz wasnīt talking about outright power-If you looked at video of this engine on dyno, you would see that idle is like in side intake/peripheral exhaust "stock" engine. But torque is very high and that 264 HP is achieved at only 7500 RPMs-reasonably powerful N/A rotary which can be quiet down.
First off my apologies with respect to witch company did the dyno,i meant mazdatrix.
And by the way with all due respect i understand that your from the Czech republic and may have a problem with the English language,so let me quote my Previous post that you didn't understand
"I know it has merit and do like it"(How it idle's and how more quite it is compared to regular 13b pp) "but it need's more work"(Compared to HP's of regular 13b pp engines)
"however??? if they have ported the exhaust port and use IDA style electronic fuel injection throttle body instead of the weber Carb",(Witch was used on the mazdatrix dyno)then we might have something"(in terms of hp levels)
P.S Please next time read my post more carefully or any one's for that matter before you respond,Thank you...
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
350-400 HP at the wheels
320-330 BHP was back in the 80s in endurance engines at only 8,000 Rpms. R26B had 448 lb.ft of torque-again, endurance engine. Through port timing, intake, exhaust tuning, VE% curve can be altered/shifted... so 13B with equal BMEP as R26B can have over 420 BHP at only 10,000 RPMs...
320-330 BHP was back in the 80s in endurance engines at only 8,000 Rpms. R26B had 448 lb.ft of torque-again, endurance engine. Through port timing, intake, exhaust tuning, VE% curve can be altered/shifted... so 13B with equal BMEP as R26B can have over 420 BHP at only 10,000 RPMs...
"350-400 hp 13b pp at the wheels"?? On Which endurance car? because i would like to know?? please state fact's with links please. and i will gladly be wrong.
Once again let me quote to you my previous post in which you have the nerve to restate to me like i am some kind of child with down Syndrome.
"First off I'm calling B.S on the 350-400 hp p-port 13b's without nos. 320-330 with good tune then i can see it,unless your using MFR type housings with 3 spark plugs and using 787b like intake???"
P.S If you can't understand That??!!!! Then i can't help you any more
Have you read Liborek's posts? His English is damn good and the point he made was logical given the interpretation of your post *a misunderstanding he and I both made*
The post looked to emphasize the fact it was missing peak power but not talking a lot about the fact it has as much or more area UNDER the torque curve.
P.S next time please post more clearly, Thank you...
The post looked to emphasize the fact it was missing peak power but not talking a lot about the fact it has as much or more area UNDER the torque curve.
P.S next time please post more clearly, Thank you...
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
Let me guess,you didn't read my post entirely??? or you didn't understand it as well.
Ladies and Gentlemen of this Forum,I don't want to be a troll and be an ******* to any one. but for the love of god!!!!!! try to read every post in it's entirety and try to understand it!!!! if anyone does not understand any of my post's and wish that i be more specific, i will gladly do.
Until then..READ THE GOD DAM POST MORE CAREFULLY!!!!!
P.S THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR ALLOWING ME RANT,AND MERRY ******* CHRISTMAS...
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 297
Likes: 0
From: Chicago,IL
Have you read Liborek's posts? His English is damn good and the point he made was logical given the interpretation of your post *a misunderstanding he and I both made*
The post looked to emphasize the fact it was missing peak power but not talking a lot about the fact it has as much or more area UNDER the torque curve.
P.S next time please post more clearly, Thank you...
The post looked to emphasize the fact it was missing peak power but not talking a lot about the fact it has as much or more area UNDER the torque curve.
P.S next time please post more clearly, Thank you...
LMFAO,,,DISREGARD MY RANT
I guess i can't Allway's assume that everyone on a rotary engine forum has rotary common sense.
Wait a minute you all should!!!!!!So? Shame on all of you's..
More on the OP's topic of a larger rotary.. rather than more rotors.
I stumbled upon this picture last night. Apparently these are "8.6, 60, and 1920 cubic inch rotors made by Curtiss-Wright, another licensee of Wankel rotary engine technology from NSU. This program eventually developed into the John Deere/Lycoming SCORE engine."
this is all from
http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg08.htm
I stumbled upon this picture last night. Apparently these are "8.6, 60, and 1920 cubic inch rotors made by Curtiss-Wright, another licensee of Wankel rotary engine technology from NSU. This program eventually developed into the John Deere/Lycoming SCORE engine."
this is all from
http://cp_www.tripod.com/rotary/pg08.htm