So my motor is gone - convince me to stay rotary
11-18-07, 02:05 AM
#77
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Lol, it's okay, I don't think I've been shunned yet. The all aluminum LS1 is only slightly heavier than the rotary. With all of the rotary's accessories added to the equation, the LS1 is only ~50lbs. heavier. Not really much of a difference. I'm drunk too though, lol, it's my birthday.
11-18-07, 02:21 AM
#79
People love to compare a stripped LSx longblock to a fully dressed, bone stock rotary with emissions and turbos. Why not make the comparison of the simplified LSx with the simplified turbo rotary? Nobody involved in these discussions is still running the stock sequential turbo rotary with emissions that weighs ~375lb.
LSx weights are estimated in the 425lb range from what I can find with a quick search. That does not appear to include PS or AC, so we won't include those with the rotary discussion either since a lot of people opt to run without those in their swap regardless.
A rotary shortblock weighs 185lb, then you add the no-emissions intake manifolds/TB (25lb), waterpump/housing (10lb), alternator (8lb), turbo/manifold/wastegate (35lb), flywheel (15-20lb), and misc. brackets/pullies/hardware/oilpan/plumbing (10-20lb) and, well, at ~300lb for a simplified rotary versus ~425 for an LSx, you can see why the bullshit flag needs to be raised on those who claim the weight is the same.
LSx weights are estimated in the 425lb range from what I can find with a quick search. That does not appear to include PS or AC, so we won't include those with the rotary discussion either since a lot of people opt to run without those in their swap regardless.
A rotary shortblock weighs 185lb, then you add the no-emissions intake manifolds/TB (25lb), waterpump/housing (10lb), alternator (8lb), turbo/manifold/wastegate (35lb), flywheel (15-20lb), and misc. brackets/pullies/hardware/oilpan/plumbing (10-20lb) and, well, at ~300lb for a simplified rotary versus ~425 for an LSx, you can see why the bullshit flag needs to be raised on those who claim the weight is the same.
11-18-07, 02:29 AM
#80
^True. Though you're ******* talented Kirk. Not all of us. Most people want to sacrifice finesse for bruteness and reliability. Yes, a rotary can be just as reliable.... but an LS can be maintained by any mullet job. It takes a special someone to maintain a rotary and keep it running at optimum.
It boils down to what type of work you are willing to put in towards your car. I love rotary power. **** I own a 7 and a 8. Would I also own an LS 7, .............. hell yeah. Just cause I'd like the torque without the ghey Camaro/Corvette body to go with it.
It boils down to what type of work you are willing to put in towards your car. I love rotary power. **** I own a 7 and a 8. Would I also own an LS 7, .............. hell yeah. Just cause I'd like the torque without the ghey Camaro/Corvette body to go with it.
11-18-07, 02:37 AM
#81
So. You have decided you want a sportscar, and you have set forth certain criteria for your choice.
You want one that sits low to the ground, has limited interior room with 2 seats, and a rough ride in stock form. You want to have plenty of torque and growling exhaust note at your disposal. You want to make it into a street warrior and track beast. You plan to run staggered wheels with wide tires. You want it to run with/better than just about whatever is on the street or the track. You want the engine to be fairly reliable and the gas mileage to be in the high teens or low 20's for mixed driving. You want people to look at you and admire your car everywhere you go.
You have 2 choices. Buy said vehicle in stock form, or build it from parts and pieces of several vehicles.
Yes, such a vehicle already exists, and it is called a Z06 Corvette. Drive up, hand over the money, sign the title, put the key into the ignition, and drive away. Done.
The one you could build is the v8 rx7. The money will end up being about the same whether you buy or build your corvette...er rx7. IT will take you months to do and/or thousands of dollars in labor costs and custom parts if you pay someone else, and it will end up as a bastard child of a conversion when it is done. You will have nagging electrical interface issues for every function of the car...cruise, a/c, p/s, gauges, cooling, etc. Some places you go, your car will be admired and welcomed, other places you will get hated on and your car will be shunned at rotary gatherings, not to mention on the internet forums.
The choice sounds simple to me, but hey...what do I know?
You want one that sits low to the ground, has limited interior room with 2 seats, and a rough ride in stock form. You want to have plenty of torque and growling exhaust note at your disposal. You want to make it into a street warrior and track beast. You plan to run staggered wheels with wide tires. You want it to run with/better than just about whatever is on the street or the track. You want the engine to be fairly reliable and the gas mileage to be in the high teens or low 20's for mixed driving. You want people to look at you and admire your car everywhere you go.
You have 2 choices. Buy said vehicle in stock form, or build it from parts and pieces of several vehicles.
Yes, such a vehicle already exists, and it is called a Z06 Corvette. Drive up, hand over the money, sign the title, put the key into the ignition, and drive away. Done.
The one you could build is the v8 rx7. The money will end up being about the same whether you buy or build your corvette...er rx7. IT will take you months to do and/or thousands of dollars in labor costs and custom parts if you pay someone else, and it will end up as a bastard child of a conversion when it is done. You will have nagging electrical interface issues for every function of the car...cruise, a/c, p/s, gauges, cooling, etc. Some places you go, your car will be admired and welcomed, other places you will get hated on and your car will be shunned at rotary gatherings, not to mention on the internet forums.
The choice sounds simple to me, but hey...what do I know?
11-18-07, 02:45 AM
#82
No disagreement there. I could afford either. Point being is "others" and what "they" want. I don't think you'll have a shortage of business anytime soon. Believe me though, it sounds cheap, but I'd let somebody else fork over the significant cost for the swap and THEN take it off their hands. Yeah, it's a bastard move; but I'm okay with that.
This thread will always go back and forth. My first love will always be rotary. ****, I'll probably own a rotary until the day I die. Will it be my main mode of trans? Probably not. That's okay, sacrifice is sacrifice. Will I enjoy the hell out of it? You ******* bet your life on it!
This thread will always go back and forth. My first love will always be rotary. ****, I'll probably own a rotary until the day I die. Will it be my main mode of trans? Probably not. That's okay, sacrifice is sacrifice. Will I enjoy the hell out of it? You ******* bet your life on it!
11-18-07, 04:12 AM
#83
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So. You have decided you want a sportscar, and you have set forth certain criteria for your choice.
You want one that sits low to the ground, has limited interior room with 2 seats, and a rough ride in stock form. You want to have plenty of torque and growling exhaust note at your disposal. You want to make it into a street warrior and track beast. You plan to run staggered wheels with wide tires. You want it to run with/better than just about whatever is on the street or the track. You want the engine to be fairly reliable and the gas mileage to be in the high teens or low 20's for mixed driving. You want people to look at you and admire your car everywhere you go.
You have 2 choices. Buy said vehicle in stock form, or build it from parts and pieces of several vehicles.
Yes, such a vehicle already exists, and it is called a Z06 Corvette. Drive up, hand over the money, sign the title, put the key into the ignition, and drive away. Done.
The one you could build is the v8 rx7. The money will end up being about the same whether you buy or build your corvette...er rx7. IT will take you months to do and/or thousands of dollars in labor costs and custom parts if you pay someone else, and it will end up as a bastard child of a conversion when it is done. You will have nagging electrical interface issues for every function of the car...cruise, a/c, p/s, gauges, cooling, etc. Some places you go, your car will be admired and welcomed, other places you will get hated on and your car will be shunned at rotary gatherings, not to mention on the internet forums.
The choice sounds simple to me, but hey...what do I know?
You want one that sits low to the ground, has limited interior room with 2 seats, and a rough ride in stock form. You want to have plenty of torque and growling exhaust note at your disposal. You want to make it into a street warrior and track beast. You plan to run staggered wheels with wide tires. You want it to run with/better than just about whatever is on the street or the track. You want the engine to be fairly reliable and the gas mileage to be in the high teens or low 20's for mixed driving. You want people to look at you and admire your car everywhere you go.
You have 2 choices. Buy said vehicle in stock form, or build it from parts and pieces of several vehicles.
Yes, such a vehicle already exists, and it is called a Z06 Corvette. Drive up, hand over the money, sign the title, put the key into the ignition, and drive away. Done.
The one you could build is the v8 rx7. The money will end up being about the same whether you buy or build your corvette...er rx7. IT will take you months to do and/or thousands of dollars in labor costs and custom parts if you pay someone else, and it will end up as a bastard child of a conversion when it is done. You will have nagging electrical interface issues for every function of the car...cruise, a/c, p/s, gauges, cooling, etc. Some places you go, your car will be admired and welcomed, other places you will get hated on and your car will be shunned at rotary gatherings, not to mention on the internet forums.
The choice sounds simple to me, but hey...what do I know?
11-19-07, 01:25 PM
#84
This thread encompasses a lot of questions and discussions which are more generalized engine topics. I'm going to move this to the Rotary Performance section. While the thread also has conversation about LSx conversions, the Rotary Performance section will give visibility to both camps.
11-19-07, 02:48 PM
#85
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This thread encompasses a lot of questions and discussions which are more generalized engine topics. I'm going to move this to the Rotary Performance section. While the thread also has conversation about LSx conversions, the Rotary Performance section will give visibility to both camps.
So I guess I'll continue the discussion.
11-19-07, 03:11 PM
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Ok, after some serious deliberation between me and both camps, I have come to the conclusion that I'm gonna finish the experiment that I started a year ago.
I bought the car because I wanted to find out about rotary engines and build a race car at the same time. Well I got the race car thing figured out but I still don't know enough, in my opinion, about the motors.
The only way I can justify staying rotary is to do it myself. I can't justify paying someone else to do it and not know that I've got perfect parts and it's done to my standards. I'm sure I'll pop a few motors but in the process, I'll learn 2 things.
a) how to build a rotary motor and make it as fast as possible, yes that includes porting the irons.
b) how to tune a rotary. Sure I'm gonna pop a few motors but that's how you learn. I asked Steve Kan how he got so good at what he does, he answered by saying that he blew up a lot of motors. I'm sure that my track record won't be any better than his so here we go.
There's two sides to this argument, the logical argument and the emotional argument.
Logically, it makes sense to go with the V-8, it's got gobs of torque, can make as much power as I would ever need, and it's as close to bulletproof as you can be. Also, it would be cheaper for someone in my situation because I've got gobs of money tied up in aftermarket stuff for my rotary that would still fetch close to the same price I paid for it. I got good deals on everything I bought and I would still be able to sell the stuff without much of a loss if any.
Emotionally, it's a rotary. They're different, not every redneck in the world has one and there's something to be said for the underdog. It may not be the best design in world but it's special and elegant in it's design. It may not be the most powerful engine or produce the most torque but it's kindof an esoteric thing that most just wouldn't understand. I didn't really realize how much it would grow on me when I bought the car but there really isn't anything quite like the rotary. As an added argument, my family heritage is German and the Wankel is a German invention, just adds to the emotional aspect.
On the intellectual side, I come from a long list of engineers in my family and I'm a computer scientist so I'm intrigued by the motor. Sure the same principles apply to any internal combustion engine but the rotary tackles the problem in an entirely different way. I love new ways to solve problems. I haven't learned everything there is to know about these engines so I'm still hungry for knowledge, the only way to satisfy that is to crack open that motor and figure out what's inside. I'll do the same with a piston motor as well, but for now, I'm gonna finish the experiment that I started in the first place.
Please feel free to add anything to the debate. I had to ask very nicely to get this thread re-opened so we could continue the debate. Please let me know what your thoughts are.
Jeremy
I bought the car because I wanted to find out about rotary engines and build a race car at the same time. Well I got the race car thing figured out but I still don't know enough, in my opinion, about the motors.
The only way I can justify staying rotary is to do it myself. I can't justify paying someone else to do it and not know that I've got perfect parts and it's done to my standards. I'm sure I'll pop a few motors but in the process, I'll learn 2 things.
a) how to build a rotary motor and make it as fast as possible, yes that includes porting the irons.
b) how to tune a rotary. Sure I'm gonna pop a few motors but that's how you learn. I asked Steve Kan how he got so good at what he does, he answered by saying that he blew up a lot of motors. I'm sure that my track record won't be any better than his so here we go.
There's two sides to this argument, the logical argument and the emotional argument.
Logically, it makes sense to go with the V-8, it's got gobs of torque, can make as much power as I would ever need, and it's as close to bulletproof as you can be. Also, it would be cheaper for someone in my situation because I've got gobs of money tied up in aftermarket stuff for my rotary that would still fetch close to the same price I paid for it. I got good deals on everything I bought and I would still be able to sell the stuff without much of a loss if any.
Emotionally, it's a rotary. They're different, not every redneck in the world has one and there's something to be said for the underdog. It may not be the best design in world but it's special and elegant in it's design. It may not be the most powerful engine or produce the most torque but it's kindof an esoteric thing that most just wouldn't understand. I didn't really realize how much it would grow on me when I bought the car but there really isn't anything quite like the rotary. As an added argument, my family heritage is German and the Wankel is a German invention, just adds to the emotional aspect.
On the intellectual side, I come from a long list of engineers in my family and I'm a computer scientist so I'm intrigued by the motor. Sure the same principles apply to any internal combustion engine but the rotary tackles the problem in an entirely different way. I love new ways to solve problems. I haven't learned everything there is to know about these engines so I'm still hungry for knowledge, the only way to satisfy that is to crack open that motor and figure out what's inside. I'll do the same with a piston motor as well, but for now, I'm gonna finish the experiment that I started in the first place.
Please feel free to add anything to the debate. I had to ask very nicely to get this thread re-opened so we could continue the debate. Please let me know what your thoughts are.
Jeremy
11-19-07, 03:29 PM
#87
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Thats what I started doing. You'll love seeing the simplicity inside. They really are good once you know what is going on? So very few do. They have a problem and blame it on the motor then jump ship or never fix the actual problem. Good luck. I think you would be much happier single as opposed the the twins.
11-19-07, 03:31 PM
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Thats what I started doing. You'll love seeing the simplicity inside. They really are good once you know what is going on? So very few do. They have a problem and blame it on the motor then jump ship or never fix the actual problem. Good luck. I think you would be much happier single as opposed the the twins.
It was actually slated for this winter but unfortunately, something else has come up.
Eventually I'm going with a T4 divided GT35r.
11-19-07, 06:47 PM
#90
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it's cheaper to sell my parts and do the swap
I need some sucess stories. I need to know how long I can expect to run a ported motor at just above 400hp from Gotham Racing. I've already stated that I race the car all the time. I want to hear from someone who has done what I'm talking about doing without popping their motor every year.
Can anybody supply me with those?
I need some sucess stories. I need to know how long I can expect to run a ported motor at just above 400hp from Gotham Racing. I've already stated that I race the car all the time. I want to hear from someone who has done what I'm talking about doing without popping their motor every year.
Can anybody supply me with those?
I know Steve Kan and I know he is one of the best tuners out there. Gotham builds great motors so feel confident if you go that route. My advice to you is this, get the motor done properly. Get it tuned on the rich side. Get a quality wideband in the car and add a water/methanol injection kit for added safety. If you do those items, your motor will last a very very long time.
Anthony
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i hear AI and premix or 2stroke omp kits are very good for reliability if thats what you are looking for.
09-21-09, 12:52 PM
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Ive learned to fix, build, port and tune rotarys. Like you mentioned, the only way youd be able to justify keeping the rotary was if you knew these things, I fully agree. But even then, you can also learn a V8 or any other engine for that matter.
The initial cost of the V8 will be a lot, but in the end, it will end up saving you money. A lot of my paycheck goes to my rotary engine, and I hate to think about that...
If you havent invested too much in the rotary (Seems like you have not), and plan to keep the car for a long time, go LS1, it will be cheaper in the long run and more reliable.
The initial cost of the V8 will be a lot, but in the end, it will end up saving you money. A lot of my paycheck goes to my rotary engine, and I hate to think about that...
If you havent invested too much in the rotary (Seems like you have not), and plan to keep the car for a long time, go LS1, it will be cheaper in the long run and more reliable.
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