RX-7 specialties apex seals???
05-01-05, 09:13 PM
#51
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offrotor, if you aren't trying to do a smokescreen, wat are you trying to do? all your posts are basically dedicated to throwing a smokescreen to coverup adam. you claim max has bad tuning, then then basically assume adam's builds gd motors? from wat i remember from reading your posts you never met max or adam for all i know. wat you did from the begining was really insulted people more knowledgeable then you and actually help people. you can throw the smokescreen all you want. i am posting to let you know that i see right through it, and it is not only 3 people that saw a problem. i post links to threads like this in other forums, so yeah, people can do research themselves, which you seem to discourage.
05-02-05, 12:53 AM
#52
We're not just talking about black93rx7's motor. Hell if all we wanted to talk about was Chris Ng's, Max's first motor, and Soloracer's we would have an arguement. None of those mentioned motors could do over 80psi on hot motors, and all of which were fairly low km engines. All built by the same builder.
I posted the polls because you said it's always the same 3 guy's, I thought we would find out what other people think. So far it's not looking so good. The poll is a simple question, you've got two motors, I mentioned NOTHING about one being cranked faster than the other, I assumed people are smart enough to understand both motors are tested using the starter to crank them. All I want to point out is that if people are spending hard earned money to have an engine built, and they're getting motors that after they're broken in can barely make what Mazda consider's the wear limit for compression that in my opinion the people got ripped off and there motor is not going to run to the potential it should. So far thing's have stayed fairly civil I intend to keep my posts that way, I hope you will do the same.
I posted the polls because you said it's always the same 3 guy's, I thought we would find out what other people think. So far it's not looking so good. The poll is a simple question, you've got two motors, I mentioned NOTHING about one being cranked faster than the other, I assumed people are smart enough to understand both motors are tested using the starter to crank them. All I want to point out is that if people are spending hard earned money to have an engine built, and they're getting motors that after they're broken in can barely make what Mazda consider's the wear limit for compression that in my opinion the people got ripped off and there motor is not going to run to the potential it should. So far thing's have stayed fairly civil I intend to keep my posts that way, I hope you will do the same.
05-02-05, 02:07 PM
#53
offrotor2: Do I know you? I do not appeciate the way you used me as an example in your post. I can only guess you read an old post of mine and wrongfully assumed I haven't learned a thing since buying my car.
When I first bought the car, your right I didn't know how to check compression. That was almost 3 years ago. I have learned alot since then.
For your information, I checked the compression twice with the help of an experienced rotary mechanic in Winnipeg since the rebuild and it has never held more than 60psi.
Please refrain from using my name in an attempt to justify your argument.
When I first bought the car, your right I didn't know how to check compression. That was almost 3 years ago. I have learned alot since then.
For your information, I checked the compression twice with the help of an experienced rotary mechanic in Winnipeg since the rebuild and it has never held more than 60psi.
Please refrain from using my name in an attempt to justify your argument.
05-02-05, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by SAiamNE
I'm not trying to be rude or anything but i'm just curious as to how you check compression then?
Originally Posted by black93RX7
That's a very good question. I asked that exact question and was never really given a straight answer.
I guess when your motor blows it means you have really bad compression and should probaly replace it.
I guess when your motor blows it means you have really bad compression and should probaly replace it.
Black93rx7---- this is what led me to believe you did know how to test compression.. Now you do good, its nice to know that kinda of stuff when you have a high maintenance car. I respect the fact you do not want me to use you as any part of any example to further my arguments,(my apologese). I will Stop, just after this question... How did this experienced rotary mechanic in Winnipeg do the compression test on your car? The answer to that should clear half of this mess up... I dont so much agree with the this statment:
Originally Posted by jreynish
don't just believe because someone calls themselves an;
1) Expert
2) Specialist
3) Awsome guy
4) Know it all
5) God
1) Expert
2) Specialist
3) Awsome guy
4) Know it all
5) God
05-02-05, 07:56 PM
#57
My grandfather once told me that your only as good as your last job. This thread is about new apex seals, the lastest ones on the market. So, how are they?
Were all these problems with these new seals?
I refer our customers to engine builders based on experience and what they have done recently (and also proximity). I would think a builder who never puts out a good product period would not stay in business.
Were all these problems with these new seals?
I refer our customers to engine builders based on experience and what they have done recently (and also proximity). I would think a builder who never puts out a good product period would not stay in business.
05-02-05, 09:46 PM
#58
Originally Posted by SAiamNE
I'm not trying to be rude or anything but i'm just curious as to how you check compression then?
I assumed this question was asking how compression could be checked without doing it the traditional way if cranking compression doesn't mean anything.
offrotor: You took my statement out of context. I can see how you could have made the mistake after re-reading the post.
The mechanic performed the compression test with a poor man's compression tester. I know what your going to say, that this is not a reliable way to test a motor but I would have to disagree.
First, we performed the exact same test on a motor in a non-turbo 1st gen that was in the yard. That car had 90psi in each rotor.
Second, many other members on this forum agree this is an accurate way to perform a compression test. My car also is difficult to start when hot, which is a symptom of low compression. I am not willling to pay a dealer approx. $100 to do something I can do on my own.
This experianced mechanic is very well known in Winnipeg. I am sure anyone who knows Fred, would vouche for his ability.
A friend of mine raised a good point today.
The seals used by the Adam are harder than the seals used by Mazda. This difference means you have two hard surfaces against each other which may be a contributing factor to the lower compression. The softer seals used by Mazda may form to the surface of the rotor housing resulting in better compression.
In, addition the tolerances in the engines may not be as tight in order to allow for expansion under high boost and race applications. This would result in lower compression but could also allow the motor to last longer under hard driving conditions
The above statement is only an opinion, discuss.
I'm not trying to be rude or anything but i'm just curious as to how you check compression then?
I assumed this question was asking how compression could be checked without doing it the traditional way if cranking compression doesn't mean anything.
offrotor: You took my statement out of context. I can see how you could have made the mistake after re-reading the post.
The mechanic performed the compression test with a poor man's compression tester. I know what your going to say, that this is not a reliable way to test a motor but I would have to disagree.
First, we performed the exact same test on a motor in a non-turbo 1st gen that was in the yard. That car had 90psi in each rotor.
Second, many other members on this forum agree this is an accurate way to perform a compression test. My car also is difficult to start when hot, which is a symptom of low compression. I am not willling to pay a dealer approx. $100 to do something I can do on my own.
This experianced mechanic is very well known in Winnipeg. I am sure anyone who knows Fred, would vouche for his ability.
A friend of mine raised a good point today.
The seals used by the Adam are harder than the seals used by Mazda. This difference means you have two hard surfaces against each other which may be a contributing factor to the lower compression. The softer seals used by Mazda may form to the surface of the rotor housing resulting in better compression.
In, addition the tolerances in the engines may not be as tight in order to allow for expansion under high boost and race applications. This would result in lower compression but could also allow the motor to last longer under hard driving conditions
The above statement is only an opinion, discuss.
05-02-05, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Schnide
As I said earlier the I'm sure the Mazda engineers know a bit more about the rotary then some guy in a garage with a wrench.
Its very unlikely that you will out engineer Mazda on the rotary without a hideous amount of luck, talent, experience, education and of course money. period.
didn't mean to rant sorry.
Its very unlikely that you will out engineer Mazda on the rotary without a hideous amount of luck, talent, experience, education and of course money. period.
didn't mean to rant sorry.
Car manufacturers spend Millions of dollars a year Sponsering some guy in a garage with a wrench. Why? well becuase 5 or even 30 guys, trying to engineer something in the shop is a bit different from the real world.. they need to learn, and they have, from theis people.
As for why mazda makes motors with 2mm seals and not 3mm... Easy, thats all they need.. the motors they sell only put out 250 max Horse power.. Why would they put a 3mm seal in? Cost would be higher, and then you would have to make a machien to do the rotors up..
Now if they had a higher HP motor, then they might just put 3mm in. Its silly to say 3mm is wrong because mazda says it is... You dont see them selling Ported motor do you? No, Because why? 3mm is an upgrade for a stronger motor. 3mm wont affect cracking compresion. Keep in mind...things like over heating your engine just once can adversly affect a compresion test...(who would ever admit to over heating their motor, on or off the Dino!). I found this on the net, (simple google search..)....
http://www.mazda.com/history/rotary/e1-2.html
Not much in that article about bad 3mm seals..
Last edited by offrotor2; 05-02-05 at 09:58 PM.
05-02-05, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by offrotor2
Car manufacturers spend Millions of dollars a year Sponsering some guy in a garage with a wrench. Why? well becuase 5 or even 30 guys, trying to engineer something in the shop is a bit different from the real world.. they need to learn, and they have, from theis people.
As for why mazda makes motors with 2mm seals and not 3mm... Easy, thats all they need.. the motors they sell only put out 250 max Horse power.. Why would they put a 3mm seal in? Cost would be higher, and then you would have to make a machien to do the rotors up..
Now if they had a higher HP motor, then they might just put 3mm in. Its silly to say 3mm is wrong because mazda says it is... You dont see them selling Ported motor do you? No, Because why? 3mm is an upgrade for a stronger motor. 3mm wont affect cracking compresion. Keep in mind...things like over heating your engine just once can adversly affect a compresion test...(who would ever admit to over heating their motor, on or off the Dino!). I found this on the net, (simple google search..)....
http://www.mazda.com/history/rotary/e1-2.html
Not much in that article about bad 3mm seals..
As for why mazda makes motors with 2mm seals and not 3mm... Easy, thats all they need.. the motors they sell only put out 250 max Horse power.. Why would they put a 3mm seal in? Cost would be higher, and then you would have to make a machien to do the rotors up..
Now if they had a higher HP motor, then they might just put 3mm in. Its silly to say 3mm is wrong because mazda says it is... You dont see them selling Ported motor do you? No, Because why? 3mm is an upgrade for a stronger motor. 3mm wont affect cracking compresion. Keep in mind...things like over heating your engine just once can adversly affect a compresion test...(who would ever admit to over heating their motor, on or off the Dino!). I found this on the net, (simple google search..)....
http://www.mazda.com/history/rotary/e1-2.html
Not much in that article about bad 3mm seals..
You blanket statement that 3mm seals are stronger than 2mm is very misleading.. and both you and Adam have refuse to address the main point.. I will actually agree with you that a thicker seal is going to be phsically stronger than a thinner seal, but ONLY if the 2 seals are made of the same materials! .. we know that the materials used in Adam's seals are not the same as stock mazda seals.. so kind of proof would you have that the seals are going to be as strong?
As I pointed out in my very first post concerning the demonstration Adam gave me to test the "strength" of his seals.. what he proved was that his seals were less "brittle" than mazda seals.. you can even say they were "softer" than the mazda seals .. .now does that mean they are physically stronger and will withstand detonation or anythign else that goes on inside the motor? are they stronger just because he says they are??
and again.. quit addressing the issue that the 2 of you have decided to turn this thread into.. the issue has nothing to do with the seals... in fact.. just so we can get off the topic of the quality of his seals, let me put the question in another way..
"Yes I agree that adam's seals are 100000 times stronger that stock mazda apex seals... yes I agree they will hold up to detonation better than stock mazda seals.. so the seals are perfection... if that is the case, then what is the reasoning behind the fact that we have yet to see a rebuilt motor built by the shop show cranking compression even close to mazda factory specs?? .. why is it that other builders are able to do this? but not this shop??.. "
05-02-05, 11:12 PM
#61
Originally Posted by offrotor2
3mm wont affect cracking compresion.
05-02-05, 11:40 PM
#62
Originally Posted by offrotor2
3mm wont affect cracking compresion.
05-03-05, 12:04 AM
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offrotor2: judging by your response, you didn't understand what I was saying, I was using the guy in a garage with a wrench as a example, to try and show the fact that a lack of proper education in the area as well as "real world" experience there is not much chance of anything impressive being accomplished. I was not saying that a person is useless without a degree.
And Mazda has developed more powerful engines or did you not read my last post referencing the Le mans winning 787b race car which I believe did use 2mm seals and prodiced about 700 brake horse power or about 522 Kw. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.
And Mazda has developed more powerful engines or did you not read my last post referencing the Le mans winning 787b race car which I believe did use 2mm seals and prodiced about 700 brake horse power or about 522 Kw. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me.
05-03-05, 12:42 AM
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I've heard many of you refer to the "what do you trust or beleive" when it comes to this topic...after all...this is what this thread topic always boils down to! We heard most recently
not to beleive experts, specialtists, or nice guys. We heard "do your own research" but that recently had a new light shinned on it! And of course, we hear "I'll trust Mazda scince they have millions invested"...yet this conclusion has been squashed by Mazda themselves as they have shown an admission of guilt for designing a crappy product as they changed their product 18 years later to a better seal(2pc)instaed of 3pc. This I fully support scince there is more structural mass! In any case, the "millions of $ seal" destroyed all the engines
that reached the 200k mark!12a's and GSLSE's didn't fail at 200k! How many of you would specifically request the old 3pc seal when building a strong longlife engine? And the 2mm 3pc was supposed to reduce rotor hsng wear. Huh? With all that concentrated pressure on a narrower seal...I can show whoever is interested to see...a wall full of 200k or less housings that are trashed beyond beleif!!!Good for rechroming and thats it!!! Why do you think everyone who reused a hsng. including me, has a J-spec core? MILEAGE!You can't get a good hsng. from North American engines unless it was a replacement.
And of course we hear a select few talking of how they have "SEEN" more 3mm's fail than 2mm"s. Why? Because they don't see much at all! Open your eyes a little and you'll see every 2mm origional engine is blown prematurely...200k! When the reputation of the rotary was "Wow,don't those engines get over 300K"?..answer:" Yup..up until 1986!" I think Mazda has the right Idea using the new 2mm in the Rennesis, 3mm would be silly. Its aspirated, well balanced, well lubricated(2 oil inj per hsng), and well tuned! Will the new seal survive...we'll see. Will the r. hsngs. last...we'll see! Point is... the statement of "what each individual has seen" is rediculous in these threads on this forum. Most of the ones making strong statements haven't seen anything at all. Chris is unhappy that he got 60,000 km at 380RWHP out of a 3mm engine that was origionally built for mild boost with stock inj.and turbo...Blame the seals! Turbo2 has blown up his 2mm eng. yet overlooks his reasons for blowing and critisizes 3mm seals. Max blew a 3mm eng...blame the seals..yet Chris Ng told me he witnessed Max blow his own built 2mm eng. and told me that Max blew each other one he built with 2mm seals and backed up with Max's comment which was " I'm going back to my big block Dodge"! He also said "why do you think Max or anyone else in the group won't talk about this...it doesn't look good when He's the one steering us toward 2mm seals.I asked Turbo2 for his input about what Chris told me and he stated"Well, I don't really want to get involved with that topic". In fact, these 3 individs. are the only ones who have first hand experience blowing up my 3mm engines...I rarely hear of anyone else having this problem...
and scince we know that the 2mm's are blowing within the group...shouldn't we be putting the blame on the common denominator TUNING! You 3 have always had the strongest opinions of all things yet NONE of you have anymore 1st hand experience than anyone else!
So based on the facts that I refer to the drag racers in North America to back up my views and Max refers to the Jap's to back up his views. Each seal choice works in its own application for each individual...what about each of us? My personal experience has told me that out of hundreds of engines we have sold...3mm's dont fail them in high boost applications like 2mm's. I already stated..I use 2mm seals and 3mm seals..I make 2mm seals..I make 3mm seals. Each has its own losses and benefits. Maybe you shouldn't trust or beleive those who claim to be experts, specialists, nice guys,or Mazda engineers...but I side with the guys who have the most first hand experience and invest their livelyhood in their day to day jobs rather than those who read books and manuals. After all, Mazda didn't recognize that their 3pc seal was to be a failure until their customers gave it there first hand, day to day experience. Then they changed it! I feel that this post pretty much sums it up. If this topic is raised again, I'm just gonna paste this copy from the start.
Your thoughts please! Adam Heyman
not to beleive experts, specialtists, or nice guys. We heard "do your own research" but that recently had a new light shinned on it! And of course, we hear "I'll trust Mazda scince they have millions invested"...yet this conclusion has been squashed by Mazda themselves as they have shown an admission of guilt for designing a crappy product as they changed their product 18 years later to a better seal(2pc)instaed of 3pc. This I fully support scince there is more structural mass! In any case, the "millions of $ seal" destroyed all the engines
that reached the 200k mark!12a's and GSLSE's didn't fail at 200k! How many of you would specifically request the old 3pc seal when building a strong longlife engine? And the 2mm 3pc was supposed to reduce rotor hsng wear. Huh? With all that concentrated pressure on a narrower seal...I can show whoever is interested to see...a wall full of 200k or less housings that are trashed beyond beleif!!!Good for rechroming and thats it!!! Why do you think everyone who reused a hsng. including me, has a J-spec core? MILEAGE!You can't get a good hsng. from North American engines unless it was a replacement.
And of course we hear a select few talking of how they have "SEEN" more 3mm's fail than 2mm"s. Why? Because they don't see much at all! Open your eyes a little and you'll see every 2mm origional engine is blown prematurely...200k! When the reputation of the rotary was "Wow,don't those engines get over 300K"?..answer:" Yup..up until 1986!" I think Mazda has the right Idea using the new 2mm in the Rennesis, 3mm would be silly. Its aspirated, well balanced, well lubricated(2 oil inj per hsng), and well tuned! Will the new seal survive...we'll see. Will the r. hsngs. last...we'll see! Point is... the statement of "what each individual has seen" is rediculous in these threads on this forum. Most of the ones making strong statements haven't seen anything at all. Chris is unhappy that he got 60,000 km at 380RWHP out of a 3mm engine that was origionally built for mild boost with stock inj.and turbo...Blame the seals! Turbo2 has blown up his 2mm eng. yet overlooks his reasons for blowing and critisizes 3mm seals. Max blew a 3mm eng...blame the seals..yet Chris Ng told me he witnessed Max blow his own built 2mm eng. and told me that Max blew each other one he built with 2mm seals and backed up with Max's comment which was " I'm going back to my big block Dodge"! He also said "why do you think Max or anyone else in the group won't talk about this...it doesn't look good when He's the one steering us toward 2mm seals.I asked Turbo2 for his input about what Chris told me and he stated"Well, I don't really want to get involved with that topic". In fact, these 3 individs. are the only ones who have first hand experience blowing up my 3mm engines...I rarely hear of anyone else having this problem...
and scince we know that the 2mm's are blowing within the group...shouldn't we be putting the blame on the common denominator TUNING! You 3 have always had the strongest opinions of all things yet NONE of you have anymore 1st hand experience than anyone else!
So based on the facts that I refer to the drag racers in North America to back up my views and Max refers to the Jap's to back up his views. Each seal choice works in its own application for each individual...what about each of us? My personal experience has told me that out of hundreds of engines we have sold...3mm's dont fail them in high boost applications like 2mm's. I already stated..I use 2mm seals and 3mm seals..I make 2mm seals..I make 3mm seals. Each has its own losses and benefits. Maybe you shouldn't trust or beleive those who claim to be experts, specialists, nice guys,or Mazda engineers...but I side with the guys who have the most first hand experience and invest their livelyhood in their day to day jobs rather than those who read books and manuals. After all, Mazda didn't recognize that their 3pc seal was to be a failure until their customers gave it there first hand, day to day experience. Then they changed it! I feel that this post pretty much sums it up. If this topic is raised again, I'm just gonna paste this copy from the start.
Your thoughts please! Adam Heyman
05-03-05, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by rx7_turbo2
You and I agree finally. So now thank goodness we're back to why the low comp, as Chris just mentioned. We're not talking 5 psi here 7psi there we're talking about motors with low kms that can't make the spec number for what should be a high milage worn out motor. If it's not the seals what the heck is it? I can't speak for black93's car but we know the complete history of the others, and it's clean so...what's the cause? So far in the motors we've seen the cause appeared to be the use of out of spec parts, parts modified improperly, and even parts missing. Once again that's just my opinion.
The more I think about it... the more Over heating sounds to be the issue. warped side housings/rotor housings..
You would'nt even tell the complete history of the others, due to the fact that you your self have a personal beef with Adam. Your statement cant be trusted.
05-03-05, 12:54 AM
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Max, if you dont like Offrotors posts, then talk to Ryan about if the posts are acceptable. Don't just go closing threads because you don't like what you see..if the posts are worthy of being deleated or ignored by other readers...let them decide. Your moderator privileges
are not to be abused!
are not to be abused!
05-03-05, 01:12 AM
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You know what Adam.. this is going to become a matter of he said this/he said that.. you are accusing me of making statements that you have twisted around.. Yes, I have spoken to you about Max, and the troubles he had with some of the motors that he built.. His blowing motors is not a big dark secret. he has posted the fact on the fourms everytime something has gone wrong.. 1st motor to go was a motor built by YOU.. another motor did not blow, but was removed because of a bad batch of seals (which can be verified by the seal manufacturer) .. another motor blew because of an injector problem (not a tuning issue) .. now, let's see. As for my motor.. I never ONCE blamed the seals for my issues.. in fact, they wern't even YOUR seals in there.. they were stock Mazda Gsl-Se seals in there.. The problem I had with my motor Adam, was the BUILD QUALITY of the motor... we already touched on this in another thread...
You really want to get into this Adam? You seem to like impress us with your memory of conversations we have had in the past and bring them up (in a skewed way) .. I've too also have a very good memory Adam.. I could have brought up a whole slew of things into light, but you know what.. I didn't.. because they were not relevant to the topic... Does it really matter that you had no idea what lapping a side housing ment when asked a few years ago? Did it really matter that you tried to convince me once that N/A motors blew more often than turbos, because of unequal intake pressurization? Does it really matter that you claimed to manufacture seals for rotary aviation? Or how about all the slaggign you do about other rotary builders that you do buisness with? would you like me to name names?
I call them as I see them adam.. I have defended you in the past on these forums, and I have called you out.. Do I play sides? no.. If somene is wrong, make it known.. I have done that with the group I hang out with, and I have done it with you...
So How about this Adam.. why the hell are you still talking about seals?? You already told us you didn't want to talk abotu your seals?? the current topic doesn't concern your seals.. we have already given you the benifit of the doubt and agree your seals are the best thign since sliced bread.. why the low compression numbers on your rebuilds Adam? Take into account that you have blamed people who used to work for you for the troubles we have had with our motors.. peopel who no longer work for you.. and yet, these motors were all built at diffrent points in time.. year in between each other..
if you'd like to lay it all out in the open Adam.. I'm game....
You really want to get into this Adam? You seem to like impress us with your memory of conversations we have had in the past and bring them up (in a skewed way) .. I've too also have a very good memory Adam.. I could have brought up a whole slew of things into light, but you know what.. I didn't.. because they were not relevant to the topic... Does it really matter that you had no idea what lapping a side housing ment when asked a few years ago? Did it really matter that you tried to convince me once that N/A motors blew more often than turbos, because of unequal intake pressurization? Does it really matter that you claimed to manufacture seals for rotary aviation? Or how about all the slaggign you do about other rotary builders that you do buisness with? would you like me to name names?
I call them as I see them adam.. I have defended you in the past on these forums, and I have called you out.. Do I play sides? no.. If somene is wrong, make it known.. I have done that with the group I hang out with, and I have done it with you...
So How about this Adam.. why the hell are you still talking about seals?? You already told us you didn't want to talk abotu your seals?? the current topic doesn't concern your seals.. we have already given you the benifit of the doubt and agree your seals are the best thign since sliced bread.. why the low compression numbers on your rebuilds Adam? Take into account that you have blamed people who used to work for you for the troubles we have had with our motors.. peopel who no longer work for you.. and yet, these motors were all built at diffrent points in time.. year in between each other..
if you'd like to lay it all out in the open Adam.. I'm game....
05-03-05, 01:41 AM
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Chris, you are fence sitting as usual. I am going to PM you scince this is getting off topic. I was giving first hand examples of you guys being the only ones blowing my engines with 3mm seals...again...I'll pull with Max in this case...its in the tuning. Those who have first hand experience enough to cut down 3mm seals are going to have to reveal the first hand tuning that went along with it. Point was you are eagar to blame the seals and not the tuning or driving conditions! I made reference to my seals to uphold the fact that I am not saying that 2mm's dont have their application! Hence, we manufacture both because there is an application for both. That is simply my point of view. I did not discuss the quality of my product...you did...as you referenced the demonstration I gave you. The quality I did discuss had to do with Mazdas admission of guilt to their poorly designed product which they changed due to the vast # of engines they destroyed! I beleive that anyones 2mm (2pc) has an application but so do 3mm. Adam Heyman
05-03-05, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RX7specialties
Max, if you dont like Offrotors posts, then talk to Ryan about if the posts are acceptable. Don't just go closing threads because you don't like what you see..if the posts are worthy of being deleated or ignored by other readers...let them decide. Your moderator privileges
are not to be abused!
are not to be abused!
05-03-05, 08:56 AM
#71
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Originally Posted by RX7specialties
Chris, you are fence sitting as usual. I am going to PM you scince this is getting off topic. I was giving first hand examples of you guys being the only ones blowing my engines with 3mm seals...again...I'll pull with Max in this case...its in the tuning. Those who have first hand experience enough to cut down 3mm seals are going to have to reveal the first hand tuning that went along with it. Point was you are eagar to blame the seals and not the tuning or driving conditions! I made reference to my seals to uphold the fact that I am not saying that 2mm's dont have their application! Hence, we manufacture both because there is an application for both. That is simply my point of view. I did not discuss the quality of my product...you did...as you referenced the demonstration I gave you. The quality I did discuss had to do with Mazdas admission of guilt to their poorly designed product which they changed due to the vast # of engines they destroyed! I beleive that anyones 2mm (2pc) has an application but so do 3mm. Adam Heyman
First you say there are a place for 2 and 3 mm seals.. you say you use 3mm seals because they are stronger and you use them for high boost situations... Then you accuse me for making high power on my motor that you apparently built for "mild boost"... You keep going on about how I "blew" my motor.. when I pulled my motor, the motor was still running.. it was running the same way it did months before.. my motor was pulled to find out why i always had low cranking compression and fix it (as I've mentioned over and over.. it had 70psi compression since the day I bought it) ... Yes, there was an apex seal with a corner peice cracked.. that wasn't at issue Adam.. I've never blamed the seal for that failure.. what I've always talk about when it came to my motor was the rest of the build quality.. the care of attention.. the fact that parts were missing, and out of spec parts were used.. but again, that was taken up in another thread, so I won't go back into it..
Stay on topic Adam.. You have changed this topic from "low cranking compression" to "2mm vs 3mm seals" to "you guys can't tune" and through everything.. you still have not bothered to answer any of the original questions that this thread has been about... Whatever .. Btw.. I did not originall discuss the quality of your product.. someone asked for experience with your seal, I told them what I saw during your demonstration of the seal to me.. did I say the seal was good or bad quality? no.. I did not..
Whatever...arguing with you is pointless
05-03-05, 10:15 AM
#72
Originally Posted by RX7specialties
I was giving first hand examples of you guys being the only ones blowing my engines with 3mm seals
Please read Chris' post. His motor ran, made OK but not great power. But he wanted to get to the bottom of why it pulled such low cranking comp, as Max's motor did before him(the motor you built), as Soloracers motor does, and the other people who started poping up on the forum. Well we got our answers, and it wasnt pretty, we can go back to that thread if you like? We found the same type of practises used in that motor as we did in the first motor of yours we ever pulled apart. Shall we go back and talk about that motor? Probably not hey? Soloracer may be willing to pull his motor apart, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to post up the rip down of that motor to show what we find. black93rx7 already mentioned he was building himself a new motor soon, I'll send him a PM and see if he wants to share the info he finds in his weak motor with the rest of us, so we can get to the reason why his pulls such low cranking comp.
See that's it right there, we've been asking you to explain why these motors have such weak cranking comp, and why they never really run to their potential or make the power they should. You danced around the issue, changed the topic, and then tried to pass the blame. The answer however has been pretty clear to me. Out of the motors we've seen it's been because, used out of spec (and in Chris' case damaged) housings were used, part's were missing, build tolerances were out to lunch, and part's ie?rotors milled to 3mm were done improperly. Once again just my opinion.
Now offrotor, if you'd have seen the things I've seen you'd have a beef too.
05-04-05, 02:03 AM
#73
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Graham, if you are going to accuse me and others of your favorite term "smokescreen"..you should throw that at your good friend Max too! He rarely answers any of my questions or comments on the things I address. Your numbness to this chatting is clouding your reality.
And within this reality you'd know how silliy you look being this little sidekick know it all which most outsiders do not relate to. Stick to your day job and exercise your talents in your own workplace. You just confessed half or more of your motive for posting by the comment you just addressed to offrotor! You said..."a beef too if youd seen what I have!"
Who in their normal frame of mind would have a beef and take something which does not pertain to your engine or your livelyhood so seriously? Maybe a beef if it was effecting your day to day business, but RX7's and rotaries are not your business. All we hear about is you guys bragging up Max's car cause it hit 400hp...yet Chris's eng. which was not built for anything more than a daily street car stood up to 380RWHP for 60,000k. Max's eng didn't last this long!Nor did yours! And you say it made OK but not great HP...its the same # as Max's bragging car! Firstly, if your going to refer to the Mazda manuals all the time...then refer to the SST# they say to use for the 3 POINT DIGITAL COMPRESSION TESTER! Any time you want to stop in , I can show you that this comp. tester will show propper and accurate readings. Removing the shradder valve from the std. tester is good for a reference to show consistancy or if the eng is blown and thats about it! Depending on the spring in the conventional tester...the #'s can be all over the board. If you know so much...why wouldn't you know this? Your assessments of what you've seen mean what? Youre a pro? If you can do it better...prove it! Hows your engine doing? I have a second gen anniversary at my home that I built a 3mm eng. for 5 yrs ago that has approx 6.2 bar comp and starts first bump of the key everytime. It always runs and has run...has yours?I also have 3 other rotary cars which I can reley on. You need to focus on how your concerns effect your engine and your car...thats what you should care about the most. My business,engines, tuning, and work should not create a beef with you! Think about it...we have nothing to do with each other. So lose your beef and focus NOT on things that don't effect you...focus on your car and your workplace where you should be spending your time. You dont see me involving myself with your work...and even if I got bad service from you..I sure wouldn't spend my days disecting your work and talking to others about mine and others bad experiences with you! Iv'e got better priorities running my own business. You want to exercise your professional skills and run a business flawlessly...go do it. It will get you further ahead than worrying about "beefs" with people who you dont even deal with!
And within this reality you'd know how silliy you look being this little sidekick know it all which most outsiders do not relate to. Stick to your day job and exercise your talents in your own workplace. You just confessed half or more of your motive for posting by the comment you just addressed to offrotor! You said..."a beef too if youd seen what I have!"
Who in their normal frame of mind would have a beef and take something which does not pertain to your engine or your livelyhood so seriously? Maybe a beef if it was effecting your day to day business, but RX7's and rotaries are not your business. All we hear about is you guys bragging up Max's car cause it hit 400hp...yet Chris's eng. which was not built for anything more than a daily street car stood up to 380RWHP for 60,000k. Max's eng didn't last this long!Nor did yours! And you say it made OK but not great HP...its the same # as Max's bragging car! Firstly, if your going to refer to the Mazda manuals all the time...then refer to the SST# they say to use for the 3 POINT DIGITAL COMPRESSION TESTER! Any time you want to stop in , I can show you that this comp. tester will show propper and accurate readings. Removing the shradder valve from the std. tester is good for a reference to show consistancy or if the eng is blown and thats about it! Depending on the spring in the conventional tester...the #'s can be all over the board. If you know so much...why wouldn't you know this? Your assessments of what you've seen mean what? Youre a pro? If you can do it better...prove it! Hows your engine doing? I have a second gen anniversary at my home that I built a 3mm eng. for 5 yrs ago that has approx 6.2 bar comp and starts first bump of the key everytime. It always runs and has run...has yours?I also have 3 other rotary cars which I can reley on. You need to focus on how your concerns effect your engine and your car...thats what you should care about the most. My business,engines, tuning, and work should not create a beef with you! Think about it...we have nothing to do with each other. So lose your beef and focus NOT on things that don't effect you...focus on your car and your workplace where you should be spending your time. You dont see me involving myself with your work...and even if I got bad service from you..I sure wouldn't spend my days disecting your work and talking to others about mine and others bad experiences with you! Iv'e got better priorities running my own business. You want to exercise your professional skills and run a business flawlessly...go do it. It will get you further ahead than worrying about "beefs" with people who you dont even deal with!
05-04-05, 02:47 AM
#74
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Adam.. #1, My car did not make 380rwhp for 60,000kms .. the motor had 60,000km on it since the rebuild.. the setup that created the 380rwhp was on the car for not more than 3000kms before i decided to take the motor apart.. please check your facts..
#2, compression is compression.. are you stating that the compression a piston motor puts out in one of it's cylinders is diffrent from the compression pressure that a rotary motor will put out?? standard compression gauges are calibrated to read the pressure put out by compression of a motor.. By stateing that diffrent springs in compression testers will give off diffrent numbers all the time, then what is the point of using a standard compression tester on even a piston motor? there would be no basis of comparison.. so are you stateing that the whole automotive industry is wrong by using a standard compression tester? ... and even at that point.. You are still missing the point.. IF person #1 uses a standard compression tester and sees a reading of 100psi, and person #2 uses the same device and sees a reading of 60psi, One can belive that one motor has better compression numbers than the other... You do NOT need a thousand dollar device to tell if one of these motors has a lower ability to make compression or not... Oh wait.. that's right.. rotary motors were created in some magical far-off place, where they were built by magical elves who could make the motors run on principles that defied physics...
#3 Let us go over this yet another time Adam.. since you seem to be having a difficult time understanding, or perhaps your arrogance is blocking it out completely.. the motor you speak about that made 400rwhp (actually it was about 370ish) was the motor that you had built for me.. a 3mm motor.. it died on the dyno.. this is a fact that has been posted several times on the forum.. it did NOT die because of detonation.. it died because of improperly milled rotor slots and the seals folding over.. would you care to see the rotors that came out of that motor?? Oh yes.. this was also the same motor that was missing corner seal rubbers, and had 1 n/a rotor in it.. (something you don't want to belive.. however we do have the rotors kicking around)... The motor that did not last that long, did infact detonate.. however the detonation was a result of a bad fuel injector.. this again was documented on the forums.. this had nothing to do with build quality of the motor.. I can assure you.. the motor that Max is running right now is well over 400rwhp.. and it is a motor that is not built with any special techniques to withstand high power.. it's just built right...
#4 when you say that the motor I ran was built only for daily driving in stock form.. what do you mean by that? short of dowel pinning the motor, adding 3 window bearings, and perhaps some other trickery you pull out of your bag, what would you have done if someone came in and said "adam, I want a motor that can make 400rwhp" .. You have already said that 2mm seals had it's place.. in stock daily driven cars.. and 3mm seals should be used in extreme conditions, such as high power.. My motor had 3mm seals.. if it was going to be a daily driver, why bother? Was the original owner aware or request that his motor be built to be as nothing more than a daily driver with stock power? .. We both discussed this the last time we spoke... and we both know that the original owner is the kind of guy who wouldn't settle for anything but the best...
#5 You keep bringing up the point that I made high power on my motor.. but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we are talking about.. something you still have failed to answer.. My motor, from the day I purchased it, put out 70psi compression readings.. right up to the point we pulled the motor apart.. the compresison readings were still 70psi.. it would not have mattered if I dynoed 380 or 100rwhp, the compression readings are what I am concerned about.. why do you keep dodging this?
I figure that is enough for you to chew on for the time being.. if you would like me to bring up more inconsistancies in you line of reasoning, then feel free to ask, as soon as you finish answering these...
#2, compression is compression.. are you stating that the compression a piston motor puts out in one of it's cylinders is diffrent from the compression pressure that a rotary motor will put out?? standard compression gauges are calibrated to read the pressure put out by compression of a motor.. By stateing that diffrent springs in compression testers will give off diffrent numbers all the time, then what is the point of using a standard compression tester on even a piston motor? there would be no basis of comparison.. so are you stateing that the whole automotive industry is wrong by using a standard compression tester? ... and even at that point.. You are still missing the point.. IF person #1 uses a standard compression tester and sees a reading of 100psi, and person #2 uses the same device and sees a reading of 60psi, One can belive that one motor has better compression numbers than the other... You do NOT need a thousand dollar device to tell if one of these motors has a lower ability to make compression or not... Oh wait.. that's right.. rotary motors were created in some magical far-off place, where they were built by magical elves who could make the motors run on principles that defied physics...
#3 Let us go over this yet another time Adam.. since you seem to be having a difficult time understanding, or perhaps your arrogance is blocking it out completely.. the motor you speak about that made 400rwhp (actually it was about 370ish) was the motor that you had built for me.. a 3mm motor.. it died on the dyno.. this is a fact that has been posted several times on the forum.. it did NOT die because of detonation.. it died because of improperly milled rotor slots and the seals folding over.. would you care to see the rotors that came out of that motor?? Oh yes.. this was also the same motor that was missing corner seal rubbers, and had 1 n/a rotor in it.. (something you don't want to belive.. however we do have the rotors kicking around)... The motor that did not last that long, did infact detonate.. however the detonation was a result of a bad fuel injector.. this again was documented on the forums.. this had nothing to do with build quality of the motor.. I can assure you.. the motor that Max is running right now is well over 400rwhp.. and it is a motor that is not built with any special techniques to withstand high power.. it's just built right...
#4 when you say that the motor I ran was built only for daily driving in stock form.. what do you mean by that? short of dowel pinning the motor, adding 3 window bearings, and perhaps some other trickery you pull out of your bag, what would you have done if someone came in and said "adam, I want a motor that can make 400rwhp" .. You have already said that 2mm seals had it's place.. in stock daily driven cars.. and 3mm seals should be used in extreme conditions, such as high power.. My motor had 3mm seals.. if it was going to be a daily driver, why bother? Was the original owner aware or request that his motor be built to be as nothing more than a daily driver with stock power? .. We both discussed this the last time we spoke... and we both know that the original owner is the kind of guy who wouldn't settle for anything but the best...
#5 You keep bringing up the point that I made high power on my motor.. but it doesn't really have anything to do with what we are talking about.. something you still have failed to answer.. My motor, from the day I purchased it, put out 70psi compression readings.. right up to the point we pulled the motor apart.. the compresison readings were still 70psi.. it would not have mattered if I dynoed 380 or 100rwhp, the compression readings are what I am concerned about.. why do you keep dodging this?
I figure that is enough for you to chew on for the time being.. if you would like me to bring up more inconsistancies in you line of reasoning, then feel free to ask, as soon as you finish answering these...
05-04-05, 08:33 AM
#75
Oh blah blah blah Adam. Once gain get your facts straight man. You talk like your trying to reveal some big conspiracy. All the info you posted is public knowledge and posted on the forum. Some of it was wrong but that's ok it's the facts we've corrected you on numerous times now, I assume your just ignoring the corrections, most people see through it. I do however appreciate the fact that whole post was about me
Re-read my post, how many times have I said I'm not an expert? Half dozen probably. Do I need to be an expert to see that the corner seal rubbers were missing from one side of one rotor in Chris's motor? Nope just needed eye's. What about the rediculous amount of shaft play? Nope just needed eye's, no real experience needed to tell that was wrong. Shall I go on?
You keep coming back to one thing, and it's the same on all these treads. You accuse our work, sometimes you need to fabricate senario's to do it but none the less....You forget one thing and I'll try and make this real clear this time so you can understand. I'M NOT A SHOP AND DO NOT CHARGE FOR WORK. If I screw something up while building my motor, it's MY motor and my money. You charge for it Adam. You had mentioned to me and on the forum I believe that at one point the firm who was milling your rotors for 3mm was doing it impropely I know you mentioned this to Chris as well. So are you willing to offer a warranty on those motors? Maybe a recall for all the people who had a 3mm motor built during that time? Are you starting to see the difference yet?
Re-read my post, how many times have I said I'm not an expert? Half dozen probably. Do I need to be an expert to see that the corner seal rubbers were missing from one side of one rotor in Chris's motor? Nope just needed eye's. What about the rediculous amount of shaft play? Nope just needed eye's, no real experience needed to tell that was wrong. Shall I go on?
You keep coming back to one thing, and it's the same on all these treads. You accuse our work, sometimes you need to fabricate senario's to do it but none the less....You forget one thing and I'll try and make this real clear this time so you can understand. I'M NOT A SHOP AND DO NOT CHARGE FOR WORK. If I screw something up while building my motor, it's MY motor and my money. You charge for it Adam. You had mentioned to me and on the forum I believe that at one point the firm who was milling your rotors for 3mm was doing it impropely I know you mentioned this to Chris as well. So are you willing to offer a warranty on those motors? Maybe a recall for all the people who had a 3mm motor built during that time? Are you starting to see the difference yet?
Last edited by rx7_turbo2; 05-04-05 at 08:36 AM.