Resurfacing rotor housings
11-15-04, 04:10 PM
#646
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Okay I got the pictures and here they are. As Marc described the first two pictures are of the dowel pin failure, and the second two are of the rotor housing with the CermetA coating AFTER the hydrolic lock and detonation tests. Please correct me if I am wrong I don't want to give any mis-information. So here they are:
The original pictures are much larger than this. If you guys want the full size pictures let me know and I'll post up a new link, I just don't want to kill the 56kers out there.
- Steiner
The original pictures are much larger than this. If you guys want the full size pictures let me know and I'll post up a new link, I just don't want to kill the 56kers out there.
- Steiner
11-15-04, 04:31 PM
#647
downhill acceleration is independent of weight :-D. i do agree that aluminum rotors are not such a great idea... they are already relatively light, and rotational mass isnt always bad...especially with the rough idling problems associated with rotaries. (just look at the flywheel they stuck us with...24 pounds...yikes)
side housings would be totally sweet! i kinda had the idea that you had this project up your sleeve for after the coating thing was done, scalli.
assuming coating them would be straightforward, i cant see any issues with aluminum housings... also it seems to me that the thign to do as far as marketing them would be to sell whole engines, considering that most people would be buying all the parts anyway.
a ported, 150lb production 13b capable of reliably running 20 psi for 100k miles would be damn desirable to a lot of people.
hey scalli how different is the coating you are using from the one marc's company uses or do you know? did you get the dual water cooled head going yet?
pat
side housings would be totally sweet! i kinda had the idea that you had this project up your sleeve for after the coating thing was done, scalli.
assuming coating them would be straightforward, i cant see any issues with aluminum housings... also it seems to me that the thign to do as far as marketing them would be to sell whole engines, considering that most people would be buying all the parts anyway.
a ported, 150lb production 13b capable of reliably running 20 psi for 100k miles would be damn desirable to a lot of people.
hey scalli how different is the coating you are using from the one marc's company uses or do you know? did you get the dual water cooled head going yet?
pat
11-15-04, 04:35 PM
#648
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Only problem I see with making aluminum side housings, is the actually casting process. Racing beat's price for them are very high, but I think that is due to the fact that they had to buy the materials to be able to cast them which aren't cheap. But yeah Pat I agree other than the price of equipement and casting, putting a coat on them would get rid of any problems with the aluminum getting damaged.
- Steiner
- Steiner
11-15-04, 04:51 PM
#649
Quick facts about our products;
25% of all losses in a rotary engine are due to seal friction.
our cermet coatings on the rotor housings and the end housings along with our thermal barrier coating onthe rotors provide the following advantages;
lowers fuel consumption by over 16%
reduces rotor housing cooling load by 25%
reduces rotor looling load by over 40%
provides solid lubrication at temperatures over 600F (self lubricating)
longer lasting and more durable than chrome
permits use of harder apex seals and higher spring pressures
reduces friction, retains oil better than chrome
BTW, what do you think the market is willing to pay for aluminium end housings? We have quotes from the foundry for casting these parts, if feasible we can make them...
feedback appreciated!
25% of all losses in a rotary engine are due to seal friction.
our cermet coatings on the rotor housings and the end housings along with our thermal barrier coating onthe rotors provide the following advantages;
lowers fuel consumption by over 16%
reduces rotor housing cooling load by 25%
reduces rotor looling load by over 40%
provides solid lubrication at temperatures over 600F (self lubricating)
longer lasting and more durable than chrome
permits use of harder apex seals and higher spring pressures
reduces friction, retains oil better than chrome
BTW, what do you think the market is willing to pay for aluminium end housings? We have quotes from the foundry for casting these parts, if feasible we can make them...
feedback appreciated!
11-15-04, 05:00 PM
#650
WingmaN
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Originally Posted by patman
hey scalli how different is the coating you are using from the one marc's company uses or do you know? did you get the dual water cooled head going yet?
pat
pat
But that's okay because those are what finances my little dungeon 
Even with the tungstens being cooled I am afraid the heat will not transfer fast enough. What I may have to do is have argon coming from the back and plumb air into the gun out front of the arc. Then push just enough pressure with the argon to blow the molten wire into the air stream to accelerate them for good impact.
Otherwise it would take a metric shitload of argon to run it.
I can't use nitrogen with tungsten which sucks because that **** is cheap. I really wanted to avoid having to protect the tungsten anymore than cooling it.
Of course Marc could save me a lot of trouble by telling me how they do it
After all it is kinda ballsy for him to waltz in here bragging after they stole my idea.... 3 years before I had it 
How the hell is a little guy gonna get anywhere when these other guys are beating us to the good ideas 
The man got me down!
11-15-04, 07:40 PM
#653
WingmaN
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Originally Posted by patman
and anyway...i bet you were thinking of being a big guy yourself after a while...
Nope, I just want cool toys to play with
And enough extra income to pay for some shop help. Argh... back to the lathe
11-16-04, 12:54 PM
#656
I'll take a few more today and send them to one of you guys to post them, i'll take some of both the cermet A and Cermet B as well as the cermet A end housings and the thermal barrier rotors....
Didn't any of you see our booth at Sevenstock???? We even gave away a set of ceramic apex seals and a set of rotor housings!!! ($4000 value)
Didn't any of you see our booth at Sevenstock???? We even gave away a set of ceramic apex seals and a set of rotor housings!!! ($4000 value)
11-16-04, 01:56 PM
#657
I think the plates would be a good thing if they were at a more “public friendly” price; they priced them out of the range of most people that are not looking for 1/10ths.
But if they were more reasonably priced, and a solution for a damaged plate was available, I don’t think it would take long for the major portion of the “rotary crowd” and even everyday people would understand the advantages of being to shave ~50-60 Lb from an already small and light engine.
Looks like RB quotes the plates as being 10.5 and 13 Lb for intermediate and rear plate
http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda3.htm
“As an example of the significant weight savings: a stock, intermediate housing on a 1993 13B turbo engine weighs 25.9 pounds, while the Racing Beat aluminum replacement weighs just 10.5 pounds, nearly a 60 percent weight savings. The stock rear housing on this same engine weighs 25.8 pounds, while the Racing Beat aluminum replacement weighs just 13 pounds, again a savings of nearly 50 percent.”
If a REW shortblock weighs in at roughly 190 Lb, then it could possibly weigh in right around 150 for an aluminum plate shortblock…damn that would be nice.
How many piston engines can claim that kind of power to weight ratio??
If you can come up with a good solution for the front plate (currently no solution from what I hear because of the bolts (use inserts!)) and even incorporate a replaceable modular system for things like the dowel pin areas that brake with something with a little more tensile strength than cast iron.
I think with the proper conditions they would be very popular feasible and tempting for any one looking at the facts.
But if they were more reasonably priced, and a solution for a damaged plate was available, I don’t think it would take long for the major portion of the “rotary crowd” and even everyday people would understand the advantages of being to shave ~50-60 Lb from an already small and light engine.
Looks like RB quotes the plates as being 10.5 and 13 Lb for intermediate and rear plate
http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda3.htm
“As an example of the significant weight savings: a stock, intermediate housing on a 1993 13B turbo engine weighs 25.9 pounds, while the Racing Beat aluminum replacement weighs just 10.5 pounds, nearly a 60 percent weight savings. The stock rear housing on this same engine weighs 25.8 pounds, while the Racing Beat aluminum replacement weighs just 13 pounds, again a savings of nearly 50 percent.”
If a REW shortblock weighs in at roughly 190 Lb, then it could possibly weigh in right around 150 for an aluminum plate shortblock…damn that would be nice.
How many piston engines can claim that kind of power to weight ratio??
If you can come up with a good solution for the front plate (currently no solution from what I hear because of the bolts (use inserts!)) and even incorporate a replaceable modular system for things like the dowel pin areas that brake with something with a little more tensile strength than cast iron.
I think with the proper conditions they would be very popular feasible and tempting for any one looking at the facts.
11-16-04, 02:54 PM
#658
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I agree. Aluminum side plates with a protective wear coating would be a major mover if the price was affordible. You could make some mods like building up a little more material around the bolt and dowel areas as well as make the areas around the ports more suitable for major porting without hitting water jackets
You could also get creative and make a version with side exhaust ports.
To me billet side housings would be the ultimate but the extra machining would drive the cost up. On cast you could do some abrasivie flow machining on all the passages to help get rid of all the casting ridges that leaves.
You could also get creative and make a version with side exhaust ports.
To me billet side housings would be the ultimate but the extra machining would drive the cost up. On cast you could do some abrasivie flow machining on all the passages to help get rid of all the casting ridges that leaves.
11-16-04, 07:10 PM
#660
has anyone here looked at Moller's engines???? They use a similar coating to that of JHB Engineering and make an all aluminium rotary engine in a similar size to mazda that has no oil pan... very light!!!