couturemarc

Hello All,

Just to clear this up, or prices start at under $900 CDN for a SET (ie 2 housings) of Cermet B 13B housings and this includes 14% canadian taxes and "average" shipping cost within canada.

These are performance parts! They are better than chrome and as Steiner said they are much more easily repairable at a lower cost should they become damaged.

If you can find a set of housings delivered to your door in canada, taxes and shipping included for under $900 let me know because we pay more than that for our new housings that we buy in bulk.

(For all the US guys that translates to under $700 for 2 housing including average shipping for a quality performance part!)

On top of the lower price, there are many advantages to running these parts, just like other performance parts like bigger turbos, intercoolers, brakes, clutches ect... we don't comapre these prices to stock parts do we?

Hope this clears this up a little,
Marc

SnowmanSteiner

I'm not assuming anything, it has been proven that ceramic and cermit coatings, resist heat better, have a lower coefficient of friction, are harder, and last longer. If you blow a seal on regular housings and they are gouged, they are pretty much trashed. If you blow a seal with housings that have been coated with a cermit or ceramic, the area that has the gouge can be resprayed and that will be it, it will be fixed and ready to go, and it won't cost an extra 800 bucks, it will be cheaper. I don't know how people do it up there, but down here people who want to be on the cutting edge of racing will use the best equipment that will last the longest and produce the best results. As described their cermit coating was used on the 787B, a racing engine that was built to produce horsepower and torque much greater than stock and last long enough to use in a 24hour endurance race. Even for someone rebuilding their motor with mild performance modifications, it is still a good deal. Because whenever the motor blows again, it will be cheaper to rebuild instead of having to buy brand new housings, or go with a jspec engine, which to me is a shot in the dark. People can garuntee that it has x amount of miles on it all day, but unless you see the odometer and know that it has never been tampered with you will never know for sure. Add to that the fact that you have absolutely no idea how it was driven; whether it was warmed up properly every day, whether they were overreving it, whether they gave it regular oil changes. You have no clue about this, so that motor might last 100,000 miles or 1,000. I've seen two people get jspec motors and both blew within the first month. These are the only two people I know who bought jspec motors. I know there are plenty of good stories out there, but you still can not deny the fact that you don't know what conditions it was driven on. As I said before new housings $1200 when it blows another $1200. Cermit coating $800 when it blows less than $800. So I still fail to see where spending $2400 for new housings twice is a better deal than getting a coating that has all the benefits mentioned above and that will cost less to repare if a seal blows and gouges the housing. So unless Mazda is putting out special housings now that have all and more of the benefits of the cermit at a price that is lower, then I don't see how buying new housings at a higher price is better than buying theis or any other cermit or ceramic coating available on the market designed for rotary engines.

- Steiner

IAN

iTrader: (3)

"their cermit coating was used on the 787B"

How did they get the patent or the information to do this? Or are they the orginal guys that designed this?

Also what about the added thickness on the housings. "Rotor clearance?"

From the pictures in page one those housings look pretty rough. Could be the camera?

It sounds like a great idea that it will be cheaper to repair the housings. Seems like you could reuse the housings forever.

wpgrexx

the clearances are exact as a stock new one would be. they machine it before and after the coating is applied. If the pic looks rough, it is just the pic, I have seen many of the a's and B's and they are far from rough. Actually very very smooth, but the coating is deceiving to the eye almost, you would have to feel it to really understand the smoothness.

No matter what way u look at it, cermet b is a steal of a deal, they are cheaper than new chrome, and they are a superior product to chrome. How can you compare them? Plus they can be fixed after engine failure unlike chrome is garbage after failure.

IAN

iTrader: (3)

Well I am thinking about getting all of my housings coated. What would the benefits be between A and B??

doridori-rx7

iTrader: (3)

well people jumped on and are still slamming on RWS when they had come out with their apex seals.. without wating for more then one or two test results.. I'm going to wait to see what happens with this product on the streets. ( I'd also like know if this is the exact product used in the Le mans 4 rotor.. ?? that's got to be an expensive bit of lic. for a canadian company to get ) . Is thiere also a spec sheet on the differences between 'A' & 'B' grades ? or did I miss it on the website?

SnowmanSteiner

24 hours of racing under extreme conditions at rpms above 10 grand not good enough? I understand though, I am waiting results as well, but everything about these should benefit performance and longevity.

- Steiner

timrxmotors

[QUOTE=wpgrexx]the clearances are exact as a stock new one would be. they machine it before and after the coating is applied. If the pic looks rough, it is just the pic, I have seen many of the a's and B's and they are far from rough. Actually very very smooth, but the coating is deceiving to the eye almost, you would have to feel it to really understand the smoothness.

The clearances should be as exact as a new one,but mine were not,that is why I have sent them to a grinding shop.

doridori-rx7

iTrader: (3)

I was talking to a very experienced someone about this product/process and they were saying that the company should be switching to a det-gun for this process.. all the info I've seen on det-gun application would increase the quality and reduce costs 10 fold. I think the det-gun is the product Scalliwags been waiting/looking for, over the plasma gun.

http://www.homestead.com/aflame/

( detonation coating system )

Scalliwag

I am extremely curious on how things went with Ian's housings. The silence here is deafening

wpgrexx

[QUOTE=timrxmotors]you might have gotten a batch from when his machine was a little out of spec. It is fixed and better than ever from what I hear. Mark is a great guy, if you have a problem just call him and I am sure he will do everything in his power to rectufy the problem. this is assuming JHB is whee you got the housings from

mattmaclennan

And somehow they were advertised as machined to factory spec if not better. Machined to "stab in the dark" spec or worse would have been more accurate. I've seen the housings Tim had done by JBH, and they are crap. Maybe they can supply rotors to fit the new shape housings?? Mazda didn't make any thats for sure.

doridori-rx7

iTrader: (3)

ouch.. anyone have pics or maybe even clearence specs ?? I'd really like to see this succeed but the info has been.. sparse to say the least.. where is JBH for that matter I would think that someone from thier shop would at least be here to answer questions??

TwoFun

some pics will be nice, because folks can see what you mean therefore everyone in this forum can be informed about it. And perhaps allow JBH to defends/explain after seen the pics you are referring to.

good days

couturemarc

I hope that Tim gets the issues with his housings sorted out, it is unfortunate that they are out of spec.

Our grinding machine grinds the housings to the 1986 trochoid spec, this is different than the 12a spec by very minimal amounts. To assure that these housings would be 100% correct we used our 13B fixture and created a CMM digital representation of the 12A housings in question before the chrome was removed (of Tim's actual housings). At this point we were under the assumption that the housings were "brand new".

Unfortuanely, the housings had been improperly welded and hence warped (prior to JHB recieving the housings). We ground and microlapped the sides of both housings for Tim (to correct the warpage and protruding weld) free of charge and also offered to have the housings returned to us (at our cost) to correct the problems caused by warpage. Our warranty offer was declined, yet we still paid for him to have them ground locally (in the UK).
We have offered all the help we can, hope these work out for them in the end.

We have since re-created the 12a trochoid profile from a non-warped housing to avoid any possible deviations in the future. We also had a bad bearing in our machine that caused us some headaches, this too has been replaced and impooved to prevent wear.



here are the correspondances regarding the warped housings;



Glad to hear they are on their way.Can I have a tracking number? I don't know if the housings were preheated before welding,probably not.Thanks for sorting them out.I can't wait to see them! Tim.



>From: Marc Couture <mcouture@jhbperformance.com>
>To: tim white <rxmotors@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: 12A turbo housings
>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 20:36:06 -0600
>
>Hello Tim,
>
>Your housings are shipped via UPS standard. The exhaust coating turned out
>very good. The was a problem however with the welding that was performed on
>the exhausts. It seems as though the housings may not have been properly
>pre-heated prior to welding and the excessive heating caused the housings to
>warp, there was also excess welded material protruding from the sides of the
>housings. In order to machine the cermet coatings we first had to ensure
>that the housings were flat on both sides. We micro ground and lapped the
>housings flat for you (no additional charge) only removing the absolute
>minimum amount of material required to get a flat surface again. We will
>advise you of your balance owing on Monday for the shipping charges and the
>exhaust coatings.
>
>Best Regards,
>Marc Couture

timrxmotors

Well,I didn't want to go through all the detail,I really want this to work out too.To say the housings were warped by the tiny bit of welding done,I think is a huge exaggeration.Nothing has been micro-ground or lapped,the housings are exactly the same width as they were.A tiny bit of protruding weld was removed so they would lie flat.
The housings are still with the grinding shop.They had 0.2mm too much coating on them,but the thickness was correct near the exhaust port,here I can see the steel liner is dangerously thin,too much was ground away before the coating was applied.
Marc never paid for the grinding I am having done,He just didn't ask for the extra $40 for the exhaust coating,or the return shipping,and JHB never even responded to my last 2 e-mails.
Question is why weren't the housings checked to ensure they were within spec.before they left JHB,they only had to be measured.
I would have sent them back,but I had no explanation as to what went wrong,and I do not believe they can do the job to within spec.

TwoFun

On a fair note,

JHB should NOT of let the housings left their door without ensuring all specs of the housings. It is an error on their side, perhaps lack of QC program or perhaps over looked for some reasons.

anyone who are going to send their housings to JHB, are likely going to inspect and measure the housings very carefully themself. JHB should know this, and do their part. When JHB meet all the expectations of their customer, JHB will capitalized on good mouth to mouth advertisings.

fair enough? Marc?

wrxracer55

iTrader: (3)

subscribing, as i am interested in this process also

Fatty_FC3S

Any updates on how these ceramic coatings perform?

Can you use the stock mazda seals with them? Or can you only use ceramic seals?

timrxmotors

I have finally got my 12A housings back from the grinders.They are now the same spec as a new rotor housing,and my rotors now fit with the correct clearance.
5 thou was removed.The finish is absolutely perfect,far better than what JHB can do. Here is a picture.

timrxmotors

I will be using stock apex seals,considering there is less friction,it should be better for them,that is they will be cooler.

couturemarc

We leave a very specific Ra finnish on the housings to promote break in and also for supperior oil retention. We have a window of what is acceptable as far as finnish quality, shinier is not necessarily better! Although you can polish this coating to an Ra of 1 or better the finnish that the engines like is higher than that.

mattmaclennan

I saw Tim's housings yesterday, and they look spunky! A considerable difference between the Jbh finnish and the RxMotors finish... have to see what they look like by the end of the season. What was the Ra on Tim's housings Marc? Looked about 70-100, the latest grinding looks more like 20-50 so it's gonna have a completely different relationship with the tips and oil etc than the JBH ones.

couturemarc

how are you measuring these values??? By looking at the picture only i would say that he is around 0.5-3.5 for Ra. If you run either of the values that you mentioned you'd be running 60 or 100 grit sandpaper in your motor!

timrxmotors

The tips will eventually polish any less finished surface,but surely if the surface is finished smoother,then the tips will have an easier life,and break in quicker.I don't know about Ra,but the finish is comparable to that of a new housing.
I once had a housing sprayed with Molybdenum,with no surface finishing.The tips did that,but it wore them out in 7000 miles.I would think the tips would wear out before they made smooth a Cermet A coated housing.