Meziere constant duty electric pump.
 

Is any one out there running a Meziere CONSTANT duty electric water pump ? , can you post some pics of your setup and maybe give a short discription of the installation ?, thanks.

If been running one for 5 months now (WP336; 55 gpm, simgle inlet and outlet), without issue in my FD. Of note, my car is not a daily driver though, so I only have about 1500 miles on the setup to date. I have the pump mounted to the passenger side framerail, with the inlet below the centerline of the engine. The pump outlet needs to be located higher than the inlet to ensure the pump won't air lock. I am also running a 20-22 psid radiator cap, and the pump appers to have no issue with this pressure.

Are you planning to gut the OEM waterpump and splice the pump into the lower radiator hose? If so, be careful about the heater return and turbo return hoses that will now be on the high pressure side of the pump. You will reverse the direction of coolant flow through your turbo (if your running one?) and heater core.

I do not have a digital camera, conventional camera, or scanner (wow, I need to join the 90's), so the only picture I can post is one someone else tool of my car at MRR.

Glenn

Oh, I forgot to mention, in the picture, the pump is located where the stock air box would normeally be.

Glenn

Thanks for your reply , cant see much in the pic though. Which of the adapters did you use ? , how did you run the turbos' water lines and how did you incorporate the filler cap , did you remove the entire water pump / thermostat housing ?.

Sorry for the poor pic, but it is all I have.

I made my own thermostat housing that mounts to the engine in the same location as the OEM water pump housing (machined for a block of 6061-T6 AL). It was machined for a GM high flow thermostat and repositioned the alternator to the six rib belt (I eliminated the air pump, so moving the alternator allowed me to only run one belt). Meziere sells a rotary adapter that mounts in the same location, but you would need to run their dual outlet pump and find an inline thermostat housing. You would also need to locate the thermosensrs somewhere as well as fabing up a alternator mounting bracket.

For the radiator, I designed a custon 2.25" thick unit which Griffin built. On the low pressure side, I added a nipple for the heater return, another for the turbo coolant return, and another for the expansion tank return lines.

For the radiator cap, I am using a Canton expansion tank which accepts GM/Ford radiator caps. You can see it in the picture, centered above the intercooler. It is mounted as the high point int he system so air is trapped by it and vented to the overflow bottle. The throttle body coolant hardlineline (I have the TB bypassed though) which run across the top of the engine, is connected into the expansion tank as well.

My setup eliminated the coolant bypass circuit that I believe leads to a lot of rotary overheating problems.

I will try to borrow a digital camera next week and tale some pics if you like.

Glenn

Marcel,

I managed to borrow a digital camera for the evening, so attached are a few shots i took.

Some more

Thanks for the pics man , still cant see the water pump though. How did you mount your alternator ?, I'm thinking of hollowing out the water pump housing to the alternator where it is , I dont want to give up my power steering or a/c.

Hey guys, check this out. I've been trying to find all the parts in this setup. Since I dont run p/s or a/c I thought this would be a good setup. You guys happen to know where to get this alt conversion stuff? The waterpump adapter is from Meziere, but Keith at KG parts also sells it...dont know who is cheaper.

Here is the pic.....

http://evil7.com/images/evil7%20october%2011.jpg

Marcel,

I tried to brighten the two water pump images. It is mounted on the passenger side framerail where the OEM air box would be. I would need to remove my ari box an intercooler if you need better definition (and I would need to borrow a camera again).

I am also attaching an image of my thermostat housing, onto which I mount my alternator. Since I am not running an air pump or the stock water pump, I moved the alternator forward to the six rib belt. I am also running PS and AC (although I haven't evacuated and recharged the AC system yet) on the same belt.

Gutting the stock water pump housing is an option, but you will need to relocate the turbo, heater core, and TB return lines. I originally planned to go that route, but ultimately decided against it.

SPOautos, I don't know where you could buy that alternator bracket, but it looks like it mounts were the PS pump normally is. It probably wouldn't be too hard to fab your own bracket for that location. It also looks like they just removed the six rib pulley from the e-shaft.

Glenn

That is not the Meziere water pump adapter. The Meziere adapter has dual inlet hoses.

Who makes the alternator bracket ??

I will be using the Pro Jay intake so that I wouldn't need all those lines , I would like to retain my PS and maybe the A/c too.

I've ditched my p/s and a/c so I'm not worried about it. I REALLY wish someone knew where to get that alt relocaton stuff, I'd really like it since it comes with a tension pulley and everything!!!

Stephen

I'm sure it would be a "Japan Only" part .

If any of you guys are thinking of doing away with the stock pump where do you plan on relocating teh coolent sensors that are on the pump housing???

Any ideas?

Stephen

An inline filler neck would be required on the return line , I am thinking of using a large brass "T" with the appropriate fittings , or even an aftermarket aluminum one , it would ge easy to drill and tap the body or even wel do a bung or two and put in the sensors in.

I guess the filler neck also needs to be at the highest point of the system (higher than the engine).

Just went on a little search and check out what I found on a airplane website, its an electric water pump adapter that goes where the stock pump went and has sensors and everything......

http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/i..._adapter_2.JPG

Also, here is the actual page with some information
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/1...ry_engine1.htm

The only thing is I wish it used AN fittings instead of rubber hose. You would think it would being on a airplane

I have all my senosr mounted in my thermostat housing, but the low coolant level switch, which I located in the expansion tank.

As for why no AN/braided steel coolant lines an airplanes; weight. Silicane is light and also very durable.

Glenn

Sorry, bad typing, silicon not silicane.

Glenn

It’s not the Meziere WP adapter, but Meziere does sell both single and dual inlets. Part numbers are WP90 and WP91 I believe.

So how would this work? Use the AN line adapter bolted right to the front housing along with something similar to an ast as a filler neck (since it has a cap) also mounted up high on the font housing using the bolt holes where I remove those waterpump housing studs.

How does that sound?

I think the simplest way , would be to convert the existing waterpump housing to work with the external pump. This would allow you keep the alternator and power steering pump in place and put the water pump where the a/c compressor was. I would just make a block off plate for the pump and weld in the various AN fittings that I would need.

Meziere's WP adaptor is made to use with either standard fittings or an fittings. Meziere also sells several recovery tanks. You have to search around. Meziere used to have everything on their web site, but they have updated their site and it is still under construction. Summit carries Meziere's products and so does Jegs. You have to mount the tank at the highest point in the cooling system to bleed air. This will vary in every application (depending on the room you have to work with in your engine bay). A nice place (if you don't have you ABS anymore) is where the abs used to mount.

Keeping the stock water pump housing would be the way to go. Not because of the ability to keep the PS and AC, but because you can keep the stock thermostat and housing. The one problem you will run into when trying to set up an electric water pump is the thermostat problem. It is a huge problem, and it has had me frustrated for months trying to solve it. I called Mezeire and talked to one of their reps. He advised me to just run with no thermostat. I thought about this for a while, but after talking with some people that run no thermostat I realized it was definitely not worth the hassle. It is just as bad to boost on a cold rotary, as it is to overheat it. Next I thought about using a Mocal oil cooler thermostat. I have never taken apart a Mocal thermostat, so I have no idea what the actual thermostat itself looks like. If you could swap in a stock thermostat this would work perfect. In order for the car to warm up properly coolant has to flow through the housings and only the housings. If you let it run through the whole system the car will take forever to warm up. Next I found this http://www.batinc.net/files/pump.pdf (go to the very bottom of the page) . This little setup seems perfect. I only have a couple of concerns with it. The first being if the pump is turned on at startup. The pump has to be turned on upon startup in order to prevent the water in the block from boiling. I called a sales rep for the American dealer of these. He didn’t really have an answer for me. First he tried to tell me that thermal expansion would be enough to move water through the block. Then I informed him that when rotaries overheat the coolant seals go, and that it is too much of a risk to rely on thermal expansion to move water through the block. After talking to him for a while he gave me the e-mail to the company to ask them if the pump is on at startup. I still havn’t e mailed them, but ill get on it soon. The next thing that concerns me with this setup is the pump itself. On their web site they say the flow rate is 300-1300 gal/hr this converts to 5GPM and 21.667GPM. The Meziere pump is definitely a quality piece, and it flows 55GPM. If I could some how use their water pump controller to control the Meziere water pump I would be happy. I am also concerned with running the Meziere pump at low voltage. It is not made to be run at anything but 12V, and lower voltages could cause it to not operate properly. That’s how far I have gotten so far. I hope it helps clear up some things.

Dave

I also found that EWP controller but on a different site. If you check out that site I linked to earlier with the airplane guys he was using a pump with that same EWP controller on it. Its called a Davis Craig pump. Here is all the link I have on it....

The airplane guys page that shows the pump and some into on it with a 13B adapter
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/1...ry_engine1.htm

Here is the Davis Craig site that shows thier pump along with the EWP controller
http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=8
Here is a write up about the pump on teh Davis Craig site, which btw I leaned introduced the first electric fan for automobils.

I did have the link to the EWP site which is the parent company of Davis Craig but now I cant find thier site.

The more I read about that pump the more I like it. The flow volume seems lower than some of the other pumps but a lot of those are prob designed for a 500 cubic inch race engine plus since they dont list the volume along with the pressure the number is meaningless. For all we know that could be the volume of it flowing our into a sink wide open and no pressure.

Stephen

Thanks for the info. I actually was at UPS earlier today shipping my Meziere 336 water pump back to Summit. I kept the Meziere adaptor to the block. You can see it on my engine here https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...chmentid=71270 The Davis Craig pump and controller definitely seems like best option for a street driven car. I also love the fact that the controller can be programmed to run the pump after shutdown to prevent heat soak.

My two cents,

Running the engine at all without the water pump is a bad idea. The pressures in the engine block with the pump running is probably at least 20-30 psid higher than the radiator cap pressure. The higher the flow rate, the higher the pressure (can see how a high flow pump would be a good thing?) This significantly raises the boiling point in the engine. Also, without coolant flow through the engine, hot spots will cause localized boiling. If this occurs, very little heat transfer to the coolant occurs and local thermal runaway is imminent.

Believe it or not, the thermostat provides a lot of back pressure on the cooling system. Eliminating it lowers pressures in the engine, and is why a lot of people have over heating problems without them.

My cooling system project began by wanting to keep the water pump and fans running after turning the engine off to remove to the horrendous heat-soak back issue on these cars. I have a rear stationary gear o-ring, from my car, that is baked hard as plastic from soak back. I was going to splice the Meziere pump into the lower radiator hose and buy a controller for the fans and pump. Six months later, I have scrapped the entire OEM setup because to all the same issues you guys are asking about. I have also designed a PWM fan controller circuit board that can also switch on the water pump, and keep everything running after shutdown until the system reached a preset temp, (I could not find anything in the aftermarket that had these features). My winter project is to build it.

Glenn

Oh, I forgot to mention one interestin fact, the radiator cap location sets te base pressure in the cooling system. On cars with the AST removed, the cap is relocated before the radiator. They will then have lower pressure in the engine block than cars with an AST.

Wouldnt turning the pump off and cutting off flow be very similar to the closing of a termostat?

I think I like the Davis Craig pump with the controller. I dont think it ever completely shuts off, I think it just slows down and speeds up to maintain constant temperature.

The only problem for me is I really wanted to just totally ditch the stock waterpump and housing and do basically what Dwood432 pic shows with the AN adapter. If your use the EWP controller with the Davis pump it requires a place for a thermostate. The way the EWP's sensor works is its shaped like a thermostate and sits where the stock thermostate sits which means I'd have to either bad up something pretty crazy OR keep the thermostate housing. Also, the Davis pump doesnt have AN fittings.

Stephen

The Meziere water pump adaptor is not for AN fittings. You can use AN fittings with it, if you get an AN to NPT adaptor. Meziere sells fittings for the adaptor plate that allow you to keep rubber-cooling hose.


What’s stopping you from ditching the stock water pump assembly? Its what I am doing.


The Davis Craig setup does not require a thermostat. If you use just the water pump, then it requires a thermostat. If you use their water pump and water pump controller you can run without a thermostat (the controller will act as a thermostat).


The thermal switch does not have to be used in the stock water pump housing. You can use either part number 0401 or 0402 as a thermal switch with the electric water pump http://www.daviescraig.com.au/main/display.asp?pid=15
I talked to a rep for a the American distributor for Davies Craig, and he told me that the thermal switch gets placed inline as close to the block as you can put it. Which for me would work perfect with the Meziere adaptor plate.

You might want to double chech with the guy and make sure because the installation manual doesnt say anything about that. Here is a link to the manual....

http://www.daviescraig.com.au/docume...STRUCTIONS.pdf

If you scroll down to "Installing EWP Controller Sensor" you'll see what I'm talking about.

Hopefully your guy is right and they do have another sensor that will work besides this one. My next question would be can you swap out to the other sensor for free or do you have to buy it seperate cause this sensor comes with the EWP and it doesnt say anything aobut being able to choose what sensor comes with it.

I'll probably use the adapter that Keith sells since it uses AN fittings. He also has a pump but it doesnt come with any form of controller. Here is a link if you want to scroll down....

http://www.kgparts.com/jay-tech.htm

Stephen

Also.... Dwood432 what do you plan on doing with the alt? You relocating it to the side of the engine? Have you found any brackets, kits, ect that will work?

Another reason why I think hollowing out the original water pump housing is best , apart from the "bling " factor , I see no other benefits in using the adapter , especially on a street car . Having to relocate the alternator , fabricate a bracket (correctly!) and loosing the a/c and power steering isn't an attractive idea. I use 255 tyres in front and its very hard to turn them when I'm at a stand still , having the "creature comforts" only improves the whole driving experience for me !!
By the way , there's one thing I have been thinking about , with the high flow pump (55GPM) and a free flow system , would the residance time be enough ??? , ie . would the hot water stay in the radiator long enough to be cooled , or will there just be hot water going around and around without dropping any heat in the rad. ? , if the thermostat is in place , there may be some resistance in the circuit , slowing the flow and allowing a longer time within the radiator . ??? , just a thought.

In a earlier post of mine I questioned the 55gpm figure and was saying since it doesnt indicate pressure then there is no way to know if its a real world figure or not. WELL, I talked to a tech from Stewart Components which sells many high end mechanical water pumps as well as a 55gpm electric water pump. They suggested if I were to run thier electric water pump that I should run 2 if it was going to totally replace my mech pump. I told him that 55gpm is MUCH MUCH more than the stock pump, so why would I need 2 of them. Here is his exact quote........

"The 55gpm is free flow or non-restricted flow "

So basically that is exactly what I thought, its 55gpm while being dumped into a sink haha


Stephen

Ok, I just emailed Davis Craig to find out the test parameters of thier pump. I'm hoping since its only rated at 22gpm that its more of a real world number. Also I noticed the inlets and outlets are bolt on so I can just make a flang with AN fittings and I should be good there.

Here is my next bit of cool info. I just got done talking to a guy with a 3rd gen race car thats in the middle of making a alt relocation kit to put it on the side of the engine similar to whati is in that pic I posted. He said he'd make more than one if a couple people would be interested. He's working on getting me a price.

Stephen

I would be interested in one if the price is reasonable.

How about a pisture and a price !!!

Yea, I'll ask him for a pic too.

Semi-off-topic:

I think that people who do not have power steering and/or A/C are the ones that would be interested in this mod of moving the alternator to a lower position to decrease the center of gravity. May want to start another thread, perhaps in the third gen or race tech section, to see if there are more people interested in this mod other than people who are considering the electric water pump.

Have you priced out AN fittings (-16) for your cooling system? They’re pretty expensive. Why not just go with rubber/silicon? Where do you plan on mounting the thermo switch if you have AN fittings and SS braided lines?

If your guy makes a quality bracket I would definitely be interested.

From Davies-Craig's web site "0401 Thermatic Fan Switch – This mechanical switch is located next to the radiator and a copper probe is mounted inside the radiator hose to detect the cooling system temperature. The thermal switch is adjustable from 80 degC to 115 degC and is connected to the ignition circuit for operation. The kit contains the thermal switch, mounting bracket a length of wire connectors and a rubber seal. This switch is suitable for operation with 12 and 24 Volt systems."

They say "this mechanical switch is located next to the radiator(im sure you could change the location) and a copper probe is mounted inside the radiator hose to detect the cooling system temperature."

Yes I would relocate the alt to the passenger side of the front cover. As far as brackets and kits go, nobody makes a kit that I know of(I would be very surprised if someone did), but I have seen a couple of home made variations.


http://www.rxtuner.com/farticles/CYM...oftheMonth.pdf If you scroll down to the engine picture (its hard to make out but....) it looks like he has a turn-buckle to adjust belt tension, and then somehow has another bracket on the bottom of the alternator.

I uploaded two pics that I could find with adaptors or stock water pump housings with AN fittings. I know I have some more, I will look for them and post them.


Dave

Here are a couple more.

one last pic

How about a source for the main pulley that is made just for the belt going to the alternator? Anybody know?

http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/mazda_rx7.html , The ultra R. Great pulley, but it is a difficult install.

Dwood432 - do you know what the ID of that adapter plate on your block is? I know its not AN but I was looking at -16AN which is 1" but the hose that works with it will have a ID of 7/8". Does everyone agree that 7/8ID hose should be enough, eventhough its smaller than stock? I've looked around and most AN fittings and cooling system hardware for AN fittings all supports -16 but with it being smaller than stock it just has me a little concerned.

BTW - your engine looks great with that adapter and pulley on it. And thanks for all the pics!

Stephen

The problem with overheating after thermostat removal can be solved by plugging the recirculation hole located inside the housing where the lower disc of the thermostat sits. As for having my fans and the pump run after shutdown , I have to install a new alarm, lots of them have a "turbo timer" type function , and programmable outputs that can be used to ground control relays for a specified amounts of time , I can simply tie it into the fan and pump relay and have the alarm do it for me.

Why did you return the pump ?