RICE RACING

Ito, I am confused as to why you cannot follow this? you are experienced man form what I have seen...this is easy stuff to follow.

Ever size a turbo before, Ever size injectors? Ever figured out a flow rate? Ever tried compare fuel efficiency of rotaries to pistons?

If you have ever done this then there is no argument as to the capacity of a wankel in comparison to a 4 stroke piston engine. Compared to a 2 stroke, yes a 13B is 1.3lt.

Judge Ito

wrong again, in 2 rev's the wankel engine has completed 4 cycles in just 2 chambers(1308 cc's, with the spark plugs firing 4 times. 1.3 liter 4 cycle. a 4 cil piston engine, in two 360 revs completes it's 4 cycles and 4 power strokes. A rotary in two rev.s completes 4 cycles in 2 chambers 1.3 , is just that simple, that is the only thing a rotary has in common with a piston engine, the OTTO Cycles. 2 crank shaft revs per 4 cycles...

stupid

rice racing is correct. although the rotary engin may have a 4-stroke cycle it breaths like a 2-stroke engin. do some reasearch on rotaryvalvre 2-strocks.

RICE RACING

Ito, man in two engine revolutions a two rotor fires 4 seperate chambers, you are smoking some serious crack if you don't know this?

RICE RACING

Yes Ito this is 100% right, FOR A SINGLE ROTOR 654cc ENGINE (I had to edit your post, you might learn something )

Judge Ito

Rice before you keep posting, do a little more homework, Just go to your shop, and half assemble any engine, and follow your crank revs, you will see it needs 2 revs for one rotor chamber(apex seal to apex seal) to go into Intake, compression, power exhaust, after that come and post. Ill reply later on tonight. 2 crank revs 4 cycles, I repeat 2 crank revs for a wankel to go into intake, compression,power,exhaust. in 2 crank revs. 4 cycle 1.3 liter

Judge Ito

know we are getting some where, yes in 2 revs te engine firessssssssssss 4 timessssssssssss but it only finishes the 4 cycles in a 1.3 liter formmmmmm not 2.6666666 Rice me smoking crack?? hmm 5'11 225lbs naaaaaa Crack heads dont get that big

stupid

one should also remember that a rotarys port configuration will flow more air than a 4-stroke of equal size. unless the 4-stroke is using huge lift and duration.

RICE RACING

Ito, man I have done more homework than many people, I guess that is why I am a qualified engineer (this is not meant to be a put down at all).

Engineers build wankel rotaries, they understand how they work and what they do and also how to be able to compare them to more conventional power plants.

I cannot stress enough that regards less of what you want to compare a wankel to, simply measure the air flow through it, do some cals if you do not believe or cannot follow what I am saying.

You will find out that indeed the wankel DOES complete a 4 stroke cycle in ONE engine revolution. A 4 stroke piston engine take TWO engine revolutions to complete the 4 stroke cycle.

THIS IS WHY YOU DOUBLE THE CAPACITY OF A WANKEL when comparing it to a 4 STROKE piston engine, for a 2 STROKE YOU DO NOT DOUBLE THE CAPACITY.

RICE RACING

OK finally we agree? It fires 4 times ! Each time it fires a chamber ...yes. So 4 x 654 (chamber capacity) = 2616cc

Judge Ito

Hey hey no cursing, Yes 4 ignition pulses, but not a 2.6 liter, when the engine fires for the 4th time on the 2.6 liter chamber(the next chamber) it doesnt complete its full cycles on the other 2 chambers(the 2.6cc one's). it completes the 4 cycles on the 1.3 liter the engine has half the advantage but not the full 2.6 liter advantage

RICE RACING

It is only a 1308cc displacement engine in 13B form (2 chambers) but it does double the "work" of a 4 stroke piston engine, this is why you need to double the capacity....easy.

RICE RACING

Yes it "breaths" 2616cc, though it only "measures" 1308cc.....

This is why people get confused

Judge Ito

Rice this topic is fun. many people coud learn from it. I was talking to Jim Mederer from Racing Beat and he told me, that 1/2 the reason Mazda lost creditbility in IMSA was because Mazda engineers never fixed this 1.3 liter with a 6cil. power stroke and the 2.6 cc's 1/2 advantage...

Bucrx7

This thread is fun, I'm learning more and more. Keep it up guys! I tried to rate it has a 5 star thread but they wouldn't let me so I had to do a 4 star.

vosko

iTrader: (4)

interesting

RICE RACING

For ANY positive displacement engine you need to find out how much air it breaths over a set standard.

The set standard in 2 engine revs because a mojority of engines require 2 engine revs to complete ONE FULL cycle.


Wankel & piston = chamber volume x rotors x (cycles completed in 2 engine revs "set standard)

now lets compare 2 rotor & 2 cylinder engines.

eg 654cc x 2 x 2 = 2616cc rated as a 1.3lt

Piston 2 cylinder 2 stroke

eg 654cc X 2 X 2 = 2616cc rated as a 1.3lt

Piston 2 cylinder 4 stroke

eg 654cc X 2 X 1 = 1308cc rated as a 1.3lt

All of the above are 1.3lt engines, but the two stroke and the wankel breathe double the 4 stroke piston engine can in the same time cause they do double the work.

Now no one would argue that a 2 stoke piston engine does double the work of a 4 stroke ??? well the same applies to the wankel rotary my friends

Judge Ito

remember, the extra 2.6 liter chamber fires but never finishes it's 4 cycle job. but we still get some advantage.

PraxRX7

apples and oranges.

if the e-shaft turns 3 times per 1 rotor rotation, once the rotor has turned 1 full rotation (from spark lets say) if you count the beginning of the rotation from spark, to spark of the same side, then doesn't the rotary make 3 ignitions per rotation? so one spark per rotation of the e-shaft per rotor? Technically speaking of course, so 2 sparks per e-shaft rotation technically speaking.

Oh well...screw it. How is displacement calculated anyway? Is it just the volume of the chambers added? the volume per chamber? The volume that actually gets used per rotation? Yarg I am confused.

I know how a rotary works, but rotary math and stuff makes homer go something something...

RICE RACING

It is totally Nothing beats talking about rotaries and when we all get together to understand more then that is when we have done our job right.

I only wish **** like this was around 10 years ago when I was first learing

Max7

Ok, go to this Quicktime clip and count the revolutions.
http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.c...tions/RE4a.mov

RICE RACING

True, but where exactly did you start from? see what I mean.

The same applies to a piston engine example.

That is why over 720 degrees of "output" shaft rotation a 2 rotor has 4 evenly spaced ignition or power pulses, a 4 cylinder 4 stroke has the same 4 evenly spaced power pulses as well, hence they are doing the same work.

This is why it is easiest to count the frequency of the ingnition pulses of a set duration of crank revs to see what realy is happening. Forget the engine, just want to know the cahmber size and how many power pulses it sees over a set time, then I will tell you what it is achieving (power, breathing etc) regardless of engine type.

Judge Ito

the only way I know how much nitrous I could put into my 13B Bp is excatly for this reason, I know how the engine behaves as far as cc's and when you take your nitrous horsepower formula, N20hp X cubic inch = a happy Ito...

Judge Ito

When mazda claimed 1.3l they did it by its 4 strokes. but it's a large engine. but that is another case. Rice some people around my way argue to death that it's a 6 cil. They say it has 6 chambers and it fires the 6 chambers in 2 crank revs. I argue until Im blue.. that is why this is a good topic, a matter of fact NIRA (National import racing ***.) placed the 13B and 12A in te 6 cil class. thank god they no longer exist..

RICE RACING

LOL that is funny ****, if anything a 20B or any tripple rotor with evenly spaced firing order should be rated as a 6 cylinder, all you need to do is listen to them to see what I mean, they sound the same ! cause the firing order "frequency" is the same....funny that

Just as some 4 cylinder "non boxer" firing order sound similar to two rotor engines.

And a four rotor, well that just sounds fucken unreal ! I don't give a **** how they go, I just want one for the sound !

for my money nothing sounds better than a 2 or 4 rotor, a 3 rotor sounds like a six cylinder POS