Judge Ito

I'll add power goes straight up to 10,200 rpms like a rocket and the curve moves over(doesn't take a dive down) and my torgue peaks out at 9000 rpms and goes straight across to 10,200 rpm rev limiter. solid torque line. my intake manifold is custom.. I'm also running a partial p-port.

so many people wanted to talk about the possibilities of my custom manifold not working out it was almost discouraging. But I new my set up was going to work.. so far so good. Jim mederer co founder of racing beat straight out told me over the phone.. " J.R. don't waste your time with a bridgeport partial p-port, either go full p-port or full bridgeport.. one or the other" I will explore my N/A potential later down the road..

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

Ito, you sound like me. **** what other people say, try it anyways!!

This partial PP idea sounds very interesting to me now. I was once in the same boat as Jim Mederer, why waste the time to do such a complicated setup, just go PP or Full Bridge. But I actually sat down and and contimplated the partial PP idea and its not all that complicated.

Now I'm wondering how the PP's work, do they stay closed until a certain rpm, then unleash their fury?

Keep up the good work Ito!

astrochild7

iTrader: (3)

thats kinda the same path I was looking at... p-port with a very phat brifge port.. but I'm leaving my primary's with a healthy street port for some streetablity.. 6 ITB's all linked progressively in stages and exponentially ramping.. I've got the motor covered in dust waiting on time/money/parts.. early13B4port 150mile brand new sat in garage since 86' mint paid 200$came with the old wagon tranny.. which I think I want to use for a change

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Way to think outside of the box. Mazda needs to take notes. Could you please post the dyno chart?

Judge Ito

I'll try to have vosko post the video and dyno sheet. video is pretty wicked..

coldfire

iTrader: (1)

yes, please do
i did not realize you were also running a partial p-port. any details on this?

thanks
- Aaron

Judge Ito

Yes I have more details on my set up in a different rotary website. including pictures of the bridgeport partial p-port showing intake opening and intake closing and nice pics of my custom intake manifold.. soon I'll have Ryan Scott write a full story on my journey.. 5 years in the making..

astrochild7

iTrader: (3)

waiting and drooling?

1300ccTuner

what website is this on?

astrochild7

iTrader: (3)

??

Judge Ito

nopistons.com

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Not that I dont fully believe you, its just hard for me to see how your making more torque than most N/a 3-rotors. You can only get so much volumetric pumping into a 13B, and I dont see how your pulling the torque you are.

Judge Ito

I take your post as a compliment.. I'll make an effort to post my dyno sheet. In all honesty my engine if built for N/A power, I see the engine making close to 400rwhp.. there is so many ways to skin a cat..

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Judge did you get my PM? Also what seals are you running in that engine? 1 piece ceramics?

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Not that I dont fully believe you, its just hard for me to see how your making more torque than most N/a 3-rotors. You can only get so much volumetric pumping into a 13B, and I dont see how your pulling the torque you are.

JR has discovered the same thing that I have- if you use a small high velocity primary port to blow accross a large 2ndary port(s) you can set it up to make a low pressure area in the larger ports to initiate flow.

This is what I tried to relate to you regarding your porting.

Here are JR's ports


I believe JR's high torque can be attributed to a couple of factors. The siphoning of the sideports to create the low pressure area acts just as a smaller higher velocity port/runner would- it increases torque through charge veloctiy.

Also, since he is running 10,000rpm + he has more rpms to multiply the torque the engine is making each combustion by and more torque multiplication to the wheels via his gearbox. More revs= more power

JR's porting working has me exited as the streetport I am putting together was built to maximize the siphon effect by using a new shape primary port!

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Yes there is many ways to skin a cat, and I understand where Blue TII is coming from with ports configurations. But going by torque times rpm, alot of what Judge Ito is saying dosent add up. For example, he was saying that it was 220rwtq and 310 rwhp. Alright if it DOES truely put out this torque it would have way way more horsepower than 310 at 10,500 rpms. Lets assume, since you guys are definitly pushing the envelope, that the peak toque occurs 1k before redline, which would be 220 rwtq @9,500 rpms. Using torque times rpm divided by 5252, that would sum up to 397.94 rw horsepower. Now if you tell me that its not pulling torque up that far, then you would have the horsepower stated at a lower rpm which 220 rwtq @7500 rpms which of course is 314.16 rwhp. So its not really adding up, the record 13B I have heard of from Guru, was 425 Flywheel horsepower @ 12,900 rpms.(using a large J-port) and what is the torque of that record breaker? About 160 ft-lbs. Very interesting, how about racing beats FULL p-port motors? 370 horsepower @ 10,500, agian wow, 157.56 ft-lbs. How about the Lemans winner 787B, 700hp @9,000 rpms 367 ft-lbs, 1/2 that is 183 ft lbs for a 13b version. A Gsl-se had about 145 ft-lbs, Rx-8 is 10:1 compression and is only 165 ft-lbs. So I am very hard to convince. Lets say you do have a center bearing and ceramic seals, at 12k its still hard to see it happen. So yes I am VERY VERY skeptical about THIS much of a gain in torque/ horsepower that turbo 13b's dream of. But, I wont be an ***, just show me some hardcore proof, and then let me pay you for your skills so I can be the worlds first 600rwhp 20B. That would shut up the world forever.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

Also, I am sure that you know a dyno disregards gear ratio's in factoring torque, or factors it if you will. If it didnt we would have crazy dynos of 1000ft-lbs of torque on a 13B. On the street however a gear ratio is the great equalizer.

Judge Ito

dyno sheet will be posted. update my power is up to 371rwhp.. just started to inject small amounts of nitrous.. first dyno pull using 100hp of n2o landed 371 @ 9700rpms.

Judge Ito

I will finally be injecting a 300hp shot of nitrous

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Good points! I was too exited to do the math and think straight on the torque.

I anxiously await the all motor dyno sheets and the weird for 13b power curves.??

Edit- Ito stated the torque peaked at 9,000rpm on page 2.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Interesting-

Many of you are familiar with the hp = rpm x torque / 5252 formula. In many situations, that formula is the way horsepower is calculated. In the case of the Dynojet dynamometer, it is not. The Dynojet calculates horsepower even if there is no torque reading, and it does this in the manner that I am in the process of describing. Those of you that have had your vehicles tested at my shop and have watched the computer screen closely have seen that the computer plots out only the horsepower after each run, and I have to click the mouse a few times to get your torque. It does this because sometimes there is no torque reading, or the torque reading is faulty. This can happen because inductive and optical rpm pickups may not be perfect, and/or your ignition system may make things go a little haywire. If the rpm readings are not perfect, and the computer used the rpm x torque / 5252 formula, the hp reading would be inaccurate.

From
http://www.bristoldyno.com/info/whatis.htm

Dyno error?

I looked around because I thought I had heard of people dyno-ing in lower gears to make the torque look better, but as you said it should correct for that.

a7r

Blue TII, the guy who wrote that is confused about where the 'torque reading' comes from. The lack of a torque reading is due to the fact that without a proper engine RPM, the dyno software can't determine what the torque multiplier is between the engine output, and the rear wheels. HP is always (RPM*Tq)/5252,.. in the case of a typical chassis dyno it's the load cell's torque output, multiplied by the roller RPM. If you don't know the coefficient to apply to the roller RPM to map it to engine RPM, you can't compute RWTQ as it is typically used.

Sorry to thread hijack.

GtoRx7

iTrader: (5)

For a while starting to almost loose sleep over this, ahaha. I was thinking two things, a) I was sounding like a jerk, who isnt open minded enough to embrace a new extremely advanced ideas, and getting very excited about a breakthough for rotaries. Or b) I was somewhat on target on torque values on the 13B and some information was missing from what I had been reading.
I still am not sure what to exactly to believe, but the fact that on this forum, and nopistons, that your dyno result was 371 rwhp and 220 ft-lbs makes perfect sense to me on both with 100shot of nos. So without ANY nitrous that would make, what, about 271 rwhp and 120 rwtq, which is in the 340 fwhp and 160 ft-lbs. All the numbers are adding up. It doesnt matter if you open the primary ports first and then the bridgeports, and then the p-ports, or any order for that matter. It may produce more torque in certain areas, but evenually they ALL will be open and at a very high rpm, and that gives the abilty to "shift" the torque curve up to a higher rpm, giving more hp. Its very hard to just gain 100ft-lbs of torque over every rotary tuner on earth due to a new port design, or shape, or order. But if you add some nitrous to that sucker, its all out the window, and should never be called "all-motor" when its on the juice, not even if its small amounts. I really like pioneers, but please dont title things as All-Motor when using nitrous in the mix, it gets my hopes up for nothing. Judge Ito you have a very sweet ride either way, and are making HUGE progress in the rotary world. Great work.

Judge Ito

I went back to the dyno computer and looked over my dyno results. my Max horsepower was 306 and my max tq was 223.. this was done all motor NO NITROUS... but the computer screen did not initially show the torque line.. just the hp line with the torque numbers next to it.. max tq was 223.. I went deeper and found my torque line.. I could see what happend.. from 8000 rpms across to 9000 rpms my torque was 170 ft of tq then at 9500rpms to 10,200 rpms it shot up to 223 in a form of a peak.. I could see something was wrong with the steady tq line.. line was steady across the rpm range and almost at the end it peak..

I believe my 223 was off according to the peak that was present at the end.. on my first nitrous pull torque line was steady no peak and numbers were at 371rwhp and 200 tq...

I would say my all motor numbers are 306rwhp and 170tq..

If it wasn't for this thread I would not have gone back and looked at the tq line.. dyno only shows hp line once the dyno pull is complete with max tq numbers..

when I post the dyno sheet it will show max hp 306 and max tq 223.. no peaks on my hp numbers..

Judge Ito

I see the possibilities of building a 350 to 380rwhp all motor monster... I am torn between building a third gen. Rx7 a highly balanced and high compression all motor bridgeport to run NHRA .. or build a third gen. and try running in the NHRA modified class. I'm liking the all motor potential.. alot easier to run all season and be competitive against the fwd cars..

renesis rotors plus tight clearances on methonal fuel, will land 350 to 380rwhp all motor..