BNA_ELLIS

Hi All,

Is there anything special needed as far as fueling is concerned ona t51r kai at 25 psi.
I currently have an apexi pump on my to4r would I need two fuel pumps ?
Are stock fuel lines ok ? Injectors will be 850cc pri 1600 sec
Will any aftermarket fpr be suitable ? would 106 octan race fuel be ok or would I need something with a higher octane rating?
Any help aprreciated.


rgds

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

You should be fine with injectors that big and the factory lines. For FPR the SX and Aeromotive boost dependant rising rate are good choices. Not familiar with the apexi pump. For basis of comparison, if running a Supra TT pump I would say you need two of them. Also, don't forget about the fuel filter. Last (and most important) thing, at that boost level you're going to want c16 (116 octane).......

RETed

If I do the math right, you're looking at 600hp at the wheels levels???

If that's the case, the fuel injectors are at the edge.
I would run large ones.

As for fuel pumps, almost nothing can support that kinda power levels unless you pay for a super pricey Weldon (read: loud!).
It's more economical to run a pair of fuel pumps (dual Walbros or Bosch Motorsports -044).

Anything over 20psi would require race gas...


-Ted

T88Rx7

your best bet is to use 2 walbro 255 high pressure fuel pump it wont be loud like the weldon you get to use it in tank, and easier to install, we making over 1200hp with those 2 pumps, plus its cheap

dvls-7

I know i wouldn't run 2 walbros. For that level of hp#s. Where it comes to fuel i wouldn't cut any corners, go with an areomotive pump (not as noisy as the weldon), also get bigger injectors.. If you have a good tuner you can get 4 1600cc inj and have it idle properly. What setup is this for....full drag or street?
And as stated before definetly C16 gas.

BNA_ELLIS

Thanks for help & info guy's.
I think the octane numbers are different between our countries. The highest aftermarket unleaded fuel you can get here is 106 octance by 76racing. Anything higher is leaded fuel.

rgds

BNA_ELLIS

I won't be cutting corners with this it's a long term project so no rush. I bought a car a couple of weeks ago and have a host of parts already to fit when the vehicle arrives. I plan on it being completed by next Feb - March. Tuner will be me and I want the car to be street legal but mainly used on weekends otherwise track days and drag strip, so no stripped interior etc.

rgds

Maxthe7man

I am going through a fuel system design right now, for a tv51 turbo, been looking at alot of fuel pumps..
Talking to some friends of mine that run turbo mustangs, twin walbros are good for about 550 rwhp, the aeromotive pumps, the a1000 in particular does not seem to deliver the goods on boosted efi cars, they managed no more than 475 rwhp on the aeromotive pumps, I have heard that from numerous other sourcs as well, so its not a road I want to go down if I can avoid so... The big drag pumps have a history of burning out on the street, opening up alot of boxes at the speed shops and reading the instructions , reveals that alot of large capacity pumps should not be used in continuous duty applications, without some sort of pressure switch/pump controllers etc etc..
The only pump I have found that is large enough for 600+ rwhp and street duty is the barry Grant Sumo and King Sumo pumps, I have used BG's stuff before and its always been good stuff, so I am leaning toward that option.
The Apexi r32 pump looks pretty good as well, however, I think really with that kinda power and fuel flow, sumping the tank is something that should be done anyway.
Most of the sizing guides for fuel lines suggest for 550-900 hp, a 1/2" or -8 an minimum supply line, and the return one size smaller, that is also something to think abut using and intank pump is changine the feed line size through the sending unit cover.Max

T88Rx7

your absolutely right, the car is running on the edge right now, but it's not maxed, but very well damn near it...lol, it's a street car so the owner doesnt really wana sump the tank for a weldon

T88Rx7

twin walbros are good for more then 1000 hp Maxthe7man

RETed

The MkIV Supra guys have been running 700hp+ to the wheels reliably with twin Walbros with nasty T's on them.

I'm looking at the Summit Racing catalog a notice a big "RACE ONLY" emblem next to these pumps.  Of course, this doesn't mean they will not work for "street use", but most of the time "RACE ONLY" also means not-for-street-use.

The only downside is that this ND fuel pump is internally regulated to 75psi max output pressure.  At 20psi or more boost, this doesn't give much headroom to fuel flow.


-Ted

Maxthe7man

Maybe on a none boosted motor with a low pressure fuel system, but on a efi 13b, I would think that the boost psi would be around 30+, with a fuel pressure of around 85 psi needed to maintain the same fuel flow differential across the injectors, thus you would need a pump capable of approximatly 500 lph at 85 psi, the walbro's won't do that at 13.5 volts, at 16.5 volts are still shy of the required output at the required pressure. According to my mustang contacts, twin walbros dropped pressure at 550 rwhp on the dyno, changing the fuel line size and with 14 volts at the pump did not fix the problem, the pumps would just not flow enough at 75 psi to feed the motor, they were suprised it out did the aeromotive.
You can't just say its good for xxxx amount, and not consider the motor, its running on and what it takes to get it to that hp level along with its brake specific fuel consumption. It takes more fuel to get 1000 hp out of a 13b than it does a 540 cid hemi, just due to thermal efficiencies. Its funny that the MSD efi inline fuel pump with a bypass regulator will flow enough at low pressures to feed a 620 hp carb'ed 572 chev, but on a 13b with its rated 192 lph output at efi pressures, is barely capable of feeding 240 hp.. Thats why I started asking people, alot of people about their fuel pump setups regardless of car, it seems pump manafactures like to quote HP output numbers , with out any other data, then you find out its kind of a misleading number, I am sure the a1000 will flow enough for a 1000 hp, but not at the pressure requirements required for a 13b at high hp levels. In order to lower our fuel pressure requirements , we have to increase the flow rate of our injectors through physical size change, or by the number of them, we are limited by both of those characteristics in terms of the ability to control so many injectors, via staging, and idle and low speed qulaity by injector size.
Go to Max coopers website to play with the numbers, his fuel calc is pretty good. max

Maxthe7man

Ted, try the horses mouth....
http://www.barrygrant.com/bgfuel/def...spx?page=44...

T88Rx7

we are running these 2 pumps a 2jz with 6 1600cc injectors now you tell me if they arent efficient and on top of that with a wet shot of nos

Maxthe7man

I have the advice of you who I don't know from a hole in the ground compared to the advice from guys I have known for 16 years who own a dyno and have run the walbros on 3 different cars, no offense intended, but I am more likely to believe the people I know and the results I have observed in person, and err to the cautionary side, if I believed everyone on the internet that claimed a 1000hp supra, I would have gullable under my avatar...max

RETed

"We Apologize, But That Page Cannot Be Found

An Email Has Been Sent to the Administrator and This Error Will Be Reviewed"

I guess Summit Racing is WRONG then...


-Ted

Evil Aviator

I just moved (again, lol) so I can't find my Summit Racing catalog, but you may be looking at different BG pumps, a typo, or just the opinion of that particular retailer. The new BG Enduro and Sumo fuel pumps are rated by the manufacturer for continuous duty street and road racing, unlike most of their previous pumps which were strictly for drag racing or for nitrous systems.

Yes, this is annoying, much like they state hp numbers for intercoolers and other products. However, you can't really expect them to print a chart with every advertisement of their product, and the hp number is a good reference for most of the hotrod world that doesn't understand physics.

This is a pretty good website for fuel pump information and links:
http://mkiv.com/techarticles/fuel_pumps_test_2/

Maxthe7man

That page is from the stealth 316 site, a good set of articles for in tank pumps.
But I think anyone looking for fuel pumps for a 1000 hp, can probably read a chart with 2 axis's on it, I think its become a bit of the hype advertising, putting 1000 hp on it instead of may only flow 475 rwhp at 75 psi probably wouldn't sell as many fuel pumps...
Here is another pump I have been looking at:
http://www.magnumforceracing.com/mag...ection%20Pumps

I haven't found anyone running one of these, but the swivel feature would probably make life a bit easier.

The other option is to do the surge tank thing and run a pump for each fuel rail, in Japan I saw high hp cars with 4 pumps in them, 1 feeding the surge, and 1 for the primary rail, one for the secondary, and one for an AI rail, some would do just the twin bosche or apexi pumps but they weren't running absolutley huge turbos, they were typically in the 350-450 rwhp range, but god help you deal with an insurance company should you get in an accident with half your fuel system mounted in your rear hatch, or try to pass tech inspectiont without a metal bulk head in place, I know at our track here, that would for sure be an issue...In tank would be easiest, but again I think that would involve using 2 apexi r32 pumps, but you would still have to baffle the tank up for fuel slosh problems I would think as well. Max

T88Rx7

well if we can run 9.20s at 157mph on a 3600 pound car it has to be over 1000hp, but thats not our concern right now, im wondering why those guys you know isnt getting enough fuel with twin pumps i would like to know for my knowledge, but one question do they have the right walbro in there car because there are 2 versions they got one regular and then a high pressure one?

Maxthe7man

They are using the GS341 pumps, on their car.. I was tempted to pickup another walbro and try it out in dual configuration.. Doing the fuel calcs, it shows not enough on a rotary at .6-.65 BSFC for 1000hp, down at .5 on paper they would do 1000hp, as for my friends cars, I dunno, could be bad pumps, check valve problems, a weak bypass spring or perhaps there is to much fuel for a 1/2 line causing excessive pressure drops, it depends also what your fuel pressure is, and your injector setup, if someone is using an FMU instead of larger injectors, they need a pump that will pump more at higher pressures than the pump the car with larger injectors would need, and that affects how much hp you would get from a certain pump I guess..
I found another pump that looks right up my ally, its a mallory 160 gph unit, gonna do some more research on it...
Max

$150FC

How is one walbro 255 good for 420rwhp and two good for only 550? That doesn't make sense to me.

T88Rx7

im going to find out which pump it is exactly we are using as far as part number, these pumps been in the car for many years now and still working fine, fuel pressure is around 40psi with 6 1680cc injectors and on top of that with a good shot of nos and car at around 10.5 thru 11.3 at 39 psi which we didnt even plan to run, vacuum hose leak going to the gate but a/f was still good

Anthony

Sponge Bob Square Pants

To touch back on acouple of the initial reples...
A 2x1000 + 2x(1650-to-1730) setup would be nice.
Or how about an 550x2 + 1000x2 + 1600x2 for extra insurance, many possibilities, but I'd suggest staying under 1100cc on the primaries if the car will see decent street use.
As the ig discussion already has mentioned, the pump is a most crutil component, and the lines and fittings, of course, will be top of the line.