Copper exhaust gaskets
12-27-03, 01:45 AM
#26
it WILL run
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Raleigh,MS
Posts: 2,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by coldy13
I'm already using copper exhaust gaskets, they work great
I just went to the hardware store, bought some small sheets of thin copper, marked them and cut them with a jigsaw that's in my basement.
I'm already using copper exhaust gaskets, they work great
I just went to the hardware store, bought some small sheets of thin copper, marked them and cut them with a jigsaw that's in my basement.
im gonna give that a try
12-27-03, 04:54 AM
#27
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by teamstealth
jumping in late, but will these be available for FD's with stock twins? with single turbos? How about from turbo manifold to downpipe?
-Zach
jumping in late, but will these be available for FD's with stock twins? with single turbos? How about from turbo manifold to downpipe?
-Zach
12-27-03, 04:58 AM
#28
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by coldy13
I'm already using copper exhaust gaskets, they work great I just went to the hardware store, bought some small sheets of thin copper, marked them and cut them with a jigsaw that's in my basement.
I'm already using copper exhaust gaskets, they work great
I just went to the hardware store, bought some small sheets of thin copper, marked them and cut them with a jigsaw that's in my basement.
BTW, if you have a good jigsaw, you can do both the inside and outside cuts on 8ga. It's kind of a PITA, but that's how I made my first set.
12-27-03, 12:23 PM
#29
WingmaN
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fort Worth Texas
Posts: 4,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cutting annealed (soft for those unfamiliar with the term) copper is a pain in the ***. The hard copper cuts easy but does not seal as well.
I am not sure if copper does what aluminum does when you take a hardened piece and anneal it but it rapidly starts rehardening. If copper does the same thing you would not want it hardened to start with even though it would be easier to cut.
I know that copper "work hardens" which has always weirded me out. You would think the more you bend something back and forth the softer it would get. Not with that ****. That is probably the 8th wonder of the world in my book
Anyways Scrappy has the right idea by making punch dies and using annealed copper. It would be much easier and a cleaner cut in the end using dies. His process will yield the best gasket and the only practical mechanical production process. A CNC plasma would really be nice but damn they cost a bunch. Having dies made is expensive and they are limited to only cutting one kind of gasket. Once you get a CNC plasma you can make the programs and cut out whatever you want whenever you want and not have to do a tool change.
I learned an awful lot about aluminum while working on he mandrel bender project. I am not sure how much in terms of hardening copper has in common with aluminum. But I do know that if you are cutting copper with a jigsaw you are in for a bad time if it is annealed.
If you are cutting hard copper you are defeating the purpose of making a good gasket.
I tried to do a Google search to see if copper hardened back to it's original hardness like aluminum does but I did not have any luck.
So to bombard you with this long drawn out thought process
I am not sure if copper does what aluminum does when you take a hardened piece and anneal it but it rapidly starts rehardening. If copper does the same thing you would not want it hardened to start with even though it would be easier to cut.
I know that copper "work hardens" which has always weirded me out. You would think the more you bend something back and forth the softer it would get. Not with that ****. That is probably the 8th wonder of the world in my book
Anyways Scrappy has the right idea by making punch dies and using annealed copper. It would be much easier and a cleaner cut in the end using dies. His process will yield the best gasket and the only practical mechanical production process. A CNC plasma would really be nice but damn they cost a bunch. Having dies made is expensive and they are limited to only cutting one kind of gasket. Once you get a CNC plasma you can make the programs and cut out whatever you want whenever you want and not have to do a tool change.
I learned an awful lot about aluminum while working on he mandrel bender project. I am not sure how much in terms of hardening copper has in common with aluminum. But I do know that if you are cutting copper with a jigsaw you are in for a bad time if it is annealed.
If you are cutting hard copper you are defeating the purpose of making a good gasket.
I tried to do a Google search to see if copper hardened back to it's original hardness like aluminum does but I did not have any luck.
So to bombard you with this long drawn out thought process
12-28-03, 11:20 PM
#31
WingmaN
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fort Worth Texas
Posts: 4,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a guy on ebay selling some .062" copper CNC cut gaskets for 86-88 turbos. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2451241228
12-28-03, 11:48 PM
#32
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Copper can be easily annealed by heating to a dull red and quenching in water. Be sure to get the whole piece glowing and it'll anneal evenly. That will allow you to machine-cut the copper and then soften it so it's a useful gasket.
I'm thinking $10 for any 2-3 bolt exhaust flange gasket and $15 for the engine-manifold or manifold-turbo gaskets. (I'll have to see how hard it is to make the suqare cuts accurately. If there's a lot of demand for them I'll just get another die to cut the square hole and charge the same $10 at the rest of the exhaust gaskets.)
I've seen the ebay guy's stuff before. It looks really clean. I wonder if the thinner copper would be more likely to blow by through any imperfections in the flange surface? If anyone has experience with this, please let me know.
Anyway, I can match his prices in .125.
I'll start knocking them out as soon as I can get the gear together.
Thanks for the continued input!
I'm thinking $10 for any 2-3 bolt exhaust flange gasket and $15 for the engine-manifold or manifold-turbo gaskets. (I'll have to see how hard it is to make the suqare cuts accurately. If there's a lot of demand for them I'll just get another die to cut the square hole and charge the same $10 at the rest of the exhaust gaskets.)
I've seen the ebay guy's stuff before. It looks really clean. I wonder if the thinner copper would be more likely to blow by through any imperfections in the flange surface? If anyone has experience with this, please let me know.
Anyway, I can match his prices in .125.
I'll start knocking them out as soon as I can get the gear together.
Thanks for the continued input!
12-28-03, 11:56 PM
#33
WingmaN
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fort Worth Texas
Posts: 4,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big question I can't find the anwer to is if the copper will naturally harden back like aluminum does. It is really strange how it works and that has it's good points and bad points.
12-29-03, 02:01 AM
#34
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Tampa, FL
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scalliwag asked:
The big question I can't find the anwer to is if the copper will naturally harden back like aluminum does. It is really strange how it works and that has it's good points and bad points.
Answer: Depends.
Pure copper will not harden unless it is work hardened. It can be annealed using a propane torch.
Some copper alloys will precipitation harden if raised to intermediate temps. If the proper copper is selected, this is NOT a problem.
The big question I can't find the anwer to is if the copper will naturally harden back like aluminum does. It is really strange how it works and that has it's good points and bad points.
Answer: Depends.
Pure copper will not harden unless it is work hardened. It can be annealed using a propane torch.
Some copper alloys will precipitation harden if raised to intermediate temps. If the proper copper is selected, this is NOT a problem.
01-02-04, 12:46 AM
#38
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sweet! Next time I get in touch with my tool and die guy I can tell him that we've already got demand lined up. Maybe I can light a fire under him and get some production lined up sooner. Stay tuned, I'll give updates as I've got them. 
01-06-04, 03:59 AM
#40
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I saw that thread. I also saw the ebay gaskets shortly after I made my set. When I was first planning to make a set I thought about using 16ga, but wasn't sure how well it would make up for imperfections in the flanges. I was also concerned with thin spots and cracking over time. Has anyone really abused the 16ga gaskets? IF so, how did they stand up?
01-10-04, 07:30 PM
#41
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
UPDATE: I've made a few gaskets by hand and I've got the process down. I'm willing to start selling these immediately to whoever wants them. Here's a sample pic I took of the two I've made already. Gaskets Pic
I'l sell these for $15 + shipping. I'll make engine-to-manifold gaskets for $25 and will consider cutting other gasket types.
Even though they aren't quite as smooth as they'll be when I've got my dies, I still think this is a hell of a deal for 0.125 annealed copper gaskts. Of ourse, once enough money rolls in I can get my tooling whether or not my buddy can get it done. Then I'll be able to sell cheaper!
Feel free to PM me or post with any questions.
I'l sell these for $15 + shipping. I'll make engine-to-manifold gaskets for $25 and will consider cutting other gasket types.
Even though they aren't quite as smooth as they'll be when I've got my dies, I still think this is a hell of a deal for 0.125 annealed copper gaskts. Of ourse, once enough money rolls in I can get my tooling whether or not my buddy can get it done. Then I'll be able to sell cheaper!
Feel free to PM me or post with any questions.
01-14-04, 04:45 AM
#42
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: columbus,OH,USA
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was some talk amongst the 3rd gen F-body croud about copper gaskets. "Some" people had trouble with them sealing. I guess the copper dosen't "smoosh"(sorry I can't think of the actual word) as well as other material. Could be a problem if you have some gouges around your manifold or headers. They reccomended aluminum instead. It "smooshes" better and is reusable as well. NOT trying to discourage you or anything like that. Just an FYI. Good luck with it.
01-14-04, 04:45 AM
#43
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: columbus,OH,USA
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was some talk amongst the 3rd gen F-body croud about copper gaskets. "Some" people had trouble with them sealing. I guess the copper dosen't "smoosh"(sorry I can't think of the actual word) as well as other material. Could be a problem if you have some gouges around your manifold or headers. They reccomended aluminum instead. It "smooshes" better and is reusable as well. NOT trying to discourage you or anything like that. Just an FYI. Good luck with it.
01-14-04, 04:45 AM
#44
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: columbus,OH,USA
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There was some talk amongst the 3rd gen F-body crowd about copper gaskets. "Some" people had trouble with them sealing. I guess the copper dosen't "smoosh"(sorry I can't think of the actual word) as well as other material. Could be a problem if you have some gouges around your manifold or headers. They reccomended aluminum instead. It "smooshes" better and is reusable as well. NOT trying to discourage you or anything like that. Just an FYI. Good luck with it.
01-14-04, 02:28 PM
#45
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the input! No discouragement felt here. If you fail to completely anneal the copper it will have trouble conforming to any imperfections in the flanges. Even annealed, my first gasket leaked a little until it got good and hot. Now it works like a charm and I expect it to continue to do so for the forseeable future.
There's no way that aluminum would survive any rotary exhaust system. Aluminum melts at about 1200F. The typical rotary exhaust is more in the 1400F-1800F range. I chose copper because it starts getting soft in that range, rather than turning into a puddle. I chose a thickness of 1/8" so that it could soften and flow into any creases or gouges in the flanges without developing dangerously thin spots. I'm thinking of these as a long-term investment. (I'm a cheap bastard and hate to buy anything twice if I can help it.)
There's no way that aluminum would survive any rotary exhaust system. Aluminum melts at about 1200F. The typical rotary exhaust is more in the 1400F-1800F range. I chose copper because it starts getting soft in that range, rather than turning into a puddle. I chose a thickness of 1/8" so that it could soften and flow into any creases or gouges in the flanges without developing dangerously thin spots. I'm thinking of these as a long-term investment. (I'm a cheap bastard and hate to buy anything twice if I can help it.)
01-21-04, 12:02 PM
#47
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the interest! PM'ed you back.
My machinist friend has given me his first prototype die. It still needs a little work, but I tested it with some scrap bits and it cuts very cleanly. I expect to have it fully operational very soon. Then I can start giving discounts for anything using 2 1/2" holes and have him get started on a 3" die.
My machinist friend has given me his first prototype die. It still needs a little work, but I tested it with some scrap bits and it cuts very cleanly. I expect to have it fully operational very soon. Then I can start giving discounts for anything using 2 1/2" holes and have him get started on a 3" die.
01-21-04, 02:48 PM
#48
Senior Member
Originally posted by ScrapFC
I'm thinking $10 for any 2-3 bolt exhaust flange gasket and $15 for the engine-manifold or manifold-turbo gaskets. (
I'm thinking $10 for any 2-3 bolt exhaust flange gasket and $15 for the engine-manifold or manifold-turbo gaskets. (
Do you have for a T3 flange? I have ACAD drawing of flange, PM me if you need.
01-22-04, 03:08 AM
#50
Emerald Triangle for life
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll be able to sell 2-bolt-flange gaskets for $10 once I have the gear for it. Right now I have to charge a bit more for the extra hand work involved so I can build up capital to get the needed dies and press so I can discount later. For now it's $15 for any 2-bolt and $20 for any engine-to-manifold with discounts if you can give me a pattern I don't have yet. (So far this is Chairchild and Jesuscookies.)
Please forgive my ignorance, but what's a T3 flange?
Please forgive my ignorance, but what's a T3 flange?