surfpac

Here's another site on DIY wideband system.http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/projects/diy_wb/

RICE RACING

It is not !

Motec use a LSU sensor which is the Bosch version of the NTK sensor Peter uses in his DIY kit, there are major differences in that the Motec and M&WIGNITIONS EUGO & Autronic kits are microprocessor driven, they also have from what I understand a better manipulated calibration of the sensor via the programming of either the unit or the "resistor" chip that the NTK sensor uses in the plug, In the M&W kit they remove the chip and redo another one that makes the unit more accurate in the rich and lean regions (where we need it!)

I had a 1 hour meeting with Peter from TECH EDGE and he is developing a new "microprocessor" based unit that will take in MAP and RPM inputs and allow these to be logged on PC + being displayed on a LCD remote display, after I told him what I would find Important as a tunner, There is still an issue as to the so called extra things Mtec and M&W do to the calibration of the sensor but I believe the differences in accuracy are quite large, in the order of +- 10% at realy rich mixtures for a non modified sensor ?

I will be buying the Motec unit as it can use the cheaper LSU sensor (It can use ANY sensor) but it is supplied with this one, the New version (TECH EDGE) Peter is building will be awsome I have no doubt, it will have the ability to use LSU and NTK 5 wire sensors and it will have all of the features that I as a tunner will find invaluable, fast real time compact visual display, combined with data loging will help people who do not have high end ECU's.

If I could wait then I would order the new TECH EDGE unit. But for the Motec PLM @ $910 US ($1750 Aus) and the fact that the unit is sooo small and it's accuracy is unmatched, I will go for it.

Goblin

Whoops. Alright, my mistake, I didn't research it fully enough.

Glad to hear he's coming out with a better unit with more features. I wonder if it will be available before my DataLogIt ships out.

Did he mention price at all? I was all over this project because it's SO cheap and seemed like it would provide enough accuracy for my novice level street tuning skills. If the next one is in the same price range maybe I'll graduate to it after I muck about with this one for awhile.

crispeed

Hey Peter!
Be very careful with the Bosch sensor. It's very sensitive to moisture and leaded fuel! Just for comparison sake we've lost about a dozen Bosch sensors vs. one NTK in the last two years. I've also found the NTK(M&W) to be the quickest reacting one of them all. I always use both sensors at the same time and have seen lean and rich spots on the fuel curve that the Bosch never picked up!
As for calibration of the sensors every Uego NTK sensor comes with it's own calibrated chip that you install in the unit before use.

crispeed
87TII
9.20@150mph

SilverR1

Does anybody know the life expectancy on the NTK sensor? I guess what I need to know is will I be going through a lot of these things if I leave one permanently installed. My understanding is that these wideband o2 sensors are only good for a short amount of time.

lesd

Well, the one I'm using is for a Honda. Honda leaves them in 'forever', and I think US emission controls have to last something like 50,000 miles for the car to be sold here. Something to consider.

-Les

SPOautos

Chris,

Is the NTK sensor your speaking of the same as the NTK sensor that is supposed to be used with this kit? What is the main difference in the NTK that is supposed to be used with this kit and the NTK your talking about?

Thanks for the help,
STEPHEN

weaklink

Where in the exhaust is the wideband installed? Is it in or near the stock location? or closer to the tailpipe?

Lost Time

You want to place it in the dp as close to the exhaust port as possible.

forcefed1

have any of you finished this kit and been tuning with it?

weaklink

so where do i go to get the extra bung installed? Is it something that the local muffler shop can do?

R2Germany

Is it possible do install the Wideband sensor instead of the stock one ?

amemiya

from what I know you don't want to run the wide band all the time, just for tuning. The wideband senser does last as long. So you drop it in tune the car. pull it out and wait till your tuning agian. If they do make a senser that will take 50,000 miles then there would be no problem with that.

weaklink

agreed, but since the sensor in question is one from a '95 civic, possibly it would last 50,000?

weaklink

in answer to your question, I guess you could hook it up to work instead of your stock sensor, but there is no reason to do so since the ecu only adjusts according to the 02 sensor during idle and light throttle for emissions and fuel economy. The voltage output may also be different, and I know the NTK is a 5 wire sensor while stock is not. The reason to get a wideband is as Amemiya noted, not to replace the stock one.

yellowbird

I was just thinking, while the sensor is supposedly from a Honda application, and I don't doubt that, that sensor probably will last 50k+ mi, however in a rotary's exhaust heat, I suspect life will be quite shorter. Anyone have and ideas if that may be true?

Wade

iTrader: (1)

Actually, FJO says to put the sensor at least 18" from the exhaust ports, and the NTK can be supposedly damaged if a maximum temp is exceeded for long periods. So for a rotary it would be best to mount it futher from the turbos rather than closer. If I were to mount one permanently I'd probably put the boss in the midpipe or far down the downpipe.

Wade

weaklink

I think from reading the PFC forums Chuck Westbrook uses his wideband clipped to his tailpipe. How would this do?

RICE RACING

That may be correct for a n/a car but you cannot run it in this location for a turbo car.

The NTK and equive sensors use pump cell technology and this system is basically very sensitive to pressure, it accuracy is GREATLY affected by increses of pressure and can cause errors of over 20% in readings. Many people do not know this.

I laughed pretty hard when I saw a copy of turbo magazine, your equiv to out bullshit rags here in Aus(fast fours etc) and they showed an engine there with four sensors located in the manifold of a four cylinder turbo running over 2bar boost !

Anyhow, If you use one of these sensors make sure it is not seeing much more than 10psi back pressure in the exhaust (DP should be fine) and you will get accurate readings.

NOTE: no meters MOTEC included compensate for the pressure the sensor sees.

yellowbird

2 Bar Boost Damn, what are they using for fuel, Doesn't sound like a pump gas application. Rice Racing, I seem to remember you are a great fan of alcohol/water injection for the street, is there any compensations one would need to use if tuning with a wideband while the alcohol/water was flowing? What A/F ratios? How does this work?? How much boost can one safely run using alcohol/water on pump gas? I also realize that a much stouter ignition is needed.

Also Has anyone either tested the DIY W/B head to head to an off the shelf system, or has anyone been tuning with the DIY W/B, and how is it working out. I am planning on ordering a datalogit, and DIY W/B to start to tune mine, and was wondering if anyone has had any success so far.

Last, a question for Rice Racing, my FD is my daily driver, and doesn't get the best fuel economy for a car with a Cd of around .29, even considering the 2.6L relative size factor for the 13bret. I also notice my cruise O2 v to be around .85v or so. My question is: can I lower my cruise A/F ratio, and if so, how far, and is there any drawbacks to doing this. I realize it will never get the same BSFC as a 2.6L piston engine because of thermodynamics of the rotary, but can I get closer??

Thank you,
Jay

setzep

Don't quote me on this but I think RICE RACING said once that actually runs a little leaner than 14.7 under light load.

.85v, isn't that close to 12:1?

forcefed1

if anyone is intrested.
I couldn't locate a stainless O2 bung and plug to put this into my stainless exhaust. all I could find was carbon steel.
Im having a machine shop make me some but ony a few sets.
if you think you would like one he's making them for 15$ a set so Ill sell for 18.50$ shipped priority mail per set.
don't post to this thread if you want one email me at Gdenne@framatech.com

forcefed1

well scrap the last message I found a better source look here


Hi Greg,
I don't know if it's too late to stop what's already
in progress, but these bungs are readily available
from Top End Performance. The stainless weld nut can
be purchased from these guys for $9.95 ea. You can
also get the plug for the weld nut if you plan on
removing the O2 sensor after tuning has been
completed. The only reason I know this works is that
I purchased a Halmeter AF/30 before I knew about the
Oz DIY WB kit. The threads size is correct--M18 X
1.5mm.

You can check it out here:

www.racetp.com/halmeter.html

forcefed1

after a closer look..... these are not STAINLESS.. so I guess im back to having some made
Greg

Badog

"For high grade 316 stainless 18x1.5mm threaded weld-on 02 sensor bungs I recommend contacting JGM Automotive Tools (714-895-7001) and ordering p/n TR-18 (cost $12.60 each). They also sell 316 stainless plugs with copper washers to plug the bungs if you ever want to move the 02 sensors to the exhaust manifolds like I have. Another quick and inexpensive source for bungs would be to obtain an 18x1.5mm stainless nut from the hardware section at a local marine store or from Totally Stainless (800-767-4781)."

http://www.theherd.com/articles/export.html