wwilliam54

just a thought

how well would this do, would it hold up and have most of the benifits of a solid ceramic seal (a bit weaker and heavier im sure)

the friction properties look like they would be pretty good
and you can get old apex seals for 10$ a peice

might be a good idea to make stock seals/housings lasting alot longer for a decent price

93BlackFD

i'll take NO for 500 alex

the ceramic would rub right off, it would not change the density, hardness, or coeffecient of friction

wwilliam54

thanks for the answer

coldy13

Uhhh, no, it doesn't rub right off. When you ceramic coat something the ceramic bonds to it. I don't know how well it would stick to worn cast iron seals, but if you use new high-carbon steel seals, then the ceramic should bond very well to the seal and it should work great.

SnowmanSteiner

Also another thing to consider is the fact that those seals are most likely specked for the engine, so putting a coat on to it will make it larger, and you need to take that into consideration with the engine. Just wanted to add that.

- Steiner

wwilliam54

yuh
I was hopng Scally would post here with more info

im thinking about trying it on my next rebiuld (this summer)
Id probly get 2mm seals and get them cut at the right lenth

93BlackFD

ceramic bonds, yes, but it also has expansion properties related to heat, also ceramic can be applied to piston heads, but the side walls of pistons? right...friction is not something ceramic is known to lower

everything has a trade off, friction is a form of energy transfer, while ceramic does have good thermal properties, it differs greatly from friction

coldy13

People are already running ceramic seals in rotary engines, they are by far the best out there right now. Why would ceramic coated steel have different friction properties compared to a ceramic seal? I see no reason that a ceramic coated seal wouldn't work great. Ceramic is very hard, and won't wear away so you don't have to worry about the the friction properties of what's underneath. Also, ceramic is less abrasive than steel, so the ceramic coated seal would put less wear on the housing. My idea is not to coat old seals with ceramic, but to make a high carbon steel seal and ceramic coat it. That way I can make the new seal a tiny bit smaller in all dimensions so when it is coated in ceramic it is the right size.

Scalliwag

I think that with the close tolerances required this would be a huge task. They would have to be surface ground and then coated, then reground to spec.
The equipment to do all of the above processes is incredibly high. Paying shop time and given the +- tolerances you hold the shop too would make these some real high dollar seals in the end.

To me a speciallized alloy, especially Stellite6 looks very promising. They pour this alloy into molds but don't let that fool you because the properties are nothing like a casted metal that I have ever seen.
I was doing some pretty hardcore research when I ran across the material and it was incredible with almost no thermal expansion, and very high temperature rating, and a tensile strength twice as high as the hardest stainless. The stuff does not bend at all, it breaks. But it is twice as hard to break as stainless is to bend.
In reality an apex seal that flexes at all may as well break.
If something did cause one of them to break I think that something catastrophic would have to cause it. At least that is the way it looks on paper. But hey on paper the specs above tell the tale or else they gave incorrect data.
The stuff is not cheap and it would have cost about $100 per seal for the material. That would have been cut with an EDM to rough size. The corners would have had to be cut off and everything ground and micropolished to final stage.

After seeing the seals on Rotaryaviation.com at $168 per set with spings and some pretty impressive *claims* I really don't think investing in anything related to apex seals would be very wise until we know more about them.
What really sucks is that I know at least 3 people with a set of those seals and none of them (and you know who you are (David, Ihor, and I forgot the other ) have built a motor with them yet
Now they have 3mm seals for the same price. With that little factoid awaiting results I stopped dead in my tracks with the Stellite6 idea.
If those seals are as good as the claims it would be a complete waste of time to try to compete with that. I have way to many other weird *** ideas I can play with until we know just how good/bad the Rotaryaviation seals are. I really hope they are good. The price rocks *but subject to change*

But to recap I think that this theory you have is possible but does not seem practical and the latest seals just compounds this even more. Don't view this as a bad thing though. Find another dog to tackle

93BlackFD

solid ceramic and ceramic coated are two different things, you guys gotta think a little more technical than that

Scalliwag

Click the dropdown for Alloy and select Stellite 6 to find out more on this material

http://www.stellite.com/en/default.asp?s=42

coldy13

Those RotaryAvaition seals look great, but they are no use to me, I need seals for the 12a.

wwilliam54

thanks alot for the input scally

Scalliwag

They started off with 2mm 13b's several months ago. Evidently the results they have gave them enough confidence to go with a 3mm version as well.
That to me is a very promising sign. A *REALLY* good sign. I could easily see them turning out 12a's if things go well. They will probably cost the same.
I was impressed they did not mark the 3mm at a higher price.

coldy13

They didn't mark them at a higher price. but the 3mm seals do not include the springs like the 2mm seals do.

Scalliwag

Ooh you are right. They are still an incredible deal, but thanks for pointing that out.