RICE RACING

Annular dis-charge

crispeed

Now how do I know you would be the 1st to make a smart remark!
BTW. I've given up trying to edit responses. It's like everytime I try I get kicked off or website not re-sponding or some other s..t!

RICE RACING

You brightened up my boring work day

ANNULAR DIS-CHARGE, how old am I again

Gonna go ring my Weber distributor

Seriously though, it sounds interesting. I herd of a few boys using the 55mm side draft unit for similar high HP results.

Scalliwag

I said "We've already established" as in earlier posts in this forum by more than one source have confirmed that Ken has hade over 300hp at just a smidge over 50mm. I have never made any claim to making or even improving the design of the original "record setting" housings.
Since you said there was ALOT more that could be done to them I asked a fairly straight forward question; who is putting out more horsepower than Ken and Jesus?
Since as you say "The norm for ID's are at minimum 48 to 50 mm with IDA carbs. WIth EFI the high HP people are in the 53 to 55mm ID's".
I just want to know who these people are because the fastest one I know is Ken.

crispeed

Hey Scal!
Remember there're a lot of people that been doing this long before and have gotten the same results that is HP wise I meant. Let's put it this way some of those people I'm taking about don't really like to disclose any info about their setup especialy when they can run the 1/4 mile at 8.40's with a PP motor on nitrous!
There're are also some road racers who are even more secretive about their setups that I know of.
Some of these people have already jump on the renissis bandwagon!

Scalliwag

I know people can be secretive. But I thought there may be some even larger and faster pports out there you knew about on NA. The reason I don't think making the inlet tube any bigger is that unless you do some build up and grinding at the inlet the intake timing is huge already at just over 50mm. Since the port goes into the radius it is even longer. At some point (which has to be pretty soon) the overlap just gets too big to even get it to start.
You are also right about people doing this long before also. I've had a few Puerto Rican rotary guys tell me since I started this thread that this design (like Ken got from Jesus) has been used in Puerto Rico for years and no one seems to remember who the first people that did it. It appears it has been around longer than the Racing Beat design. At least in Ken's case using the exact same setup one with the RB and the other with the ones he had me copy he gets more horsepower from the Puerto Rican pport.
Have you heard anyone else refer to these as Puerto Rican pport? Paul Yaw's are the same way.
I would love to see how these would work with side exhaust ports

RX-Midget

Are you working wiht Boosted12A on this project? If so, I'm the guy who found the VW adapter for the project.
I love you proposed set up. I'll have to think it through a bit, but it sounds like what I want to do to the Midget with this core motor I just got.
BTW - I've always wanted to use an SU on a rotory!

Rotortuner

I have an annular discharge 51 IDA. I dont think im going to use it though. Crisspeed: do you think there is more hp to be made with the berg 58 or the modded 51? And as far as the puerto rican pp style. Do you just mean the 90 degree circular port? Because if so, the old man that i have been building motors with has been doing them since the 70's. He did a lot of tested in the automotive engineering program that was sponsered by mazda at western washing university back in the day and tried numerous different port designs. He built hundreds of the pp's for racers throug out the 80's for himself and many other road racers.

CJG

Scalliwag

yes, like the ones pictured early on in the thread. Supposedly the guys in PR's have been doing them there forever too. Trying to get a date on forever is not easy though.
They almost always use carbs and conventional distributor ignitions though
I think the SU ideas for a street semi-pport are really good. Maybe someone can get some pics of some mockups and we can throw around ideas.
I may have to knock around in the garage a bit and throw something out to get comments/ideas on.

chairchild

Nah, its just a boggo 12A from an 85 GSL. The car was a deathtrap, so i scrapped it and wanted to use the engine in another car (after a small amount of fiddling around anyway!)

But it's going to look sweet with those 5 carbs

crispeed

The Berg is the way to go for more power.
For drag racing the Berg 58 is the way to go. A buddy improved his 1/4 mile time from consistent 11.1's to 10.6's!
I know of some people who are also testing the 62 mm carb.
For road or circuit use depending on the actual racing conditions needed the moded 51 is the better way to go. It mostly depends on the power/torque band needed for the particular track. You might be faster with the bigger carb but it's not going to be quicker if you're going to be running out of the power band like a course with a lot of low speed turns. Testing is the only way to determine what's best for every track/course.

Rotortuner

Thanks a lot for the info. I am defenitely more of a road racer, SIR is where i will be racing most. Do the 58's usually make good pwr on the big PP's from around 6-7k on up? or are they even more peekier? Also i had one other question. I was just curious as to what size of chokes most of the guys are running? I was thinking of initially ordering the 58 with a set of 46mm chokes, F11 tubes and then big mane jets and small air's and starting there. Does this sound about right?

CJG

Kenku

You know... speaking of side exhaust ports, I just had a funny idea. The limitation on port size on the intake is enforced because of exhaust gas dilution, no? IE, you can't go too far downwards because it will overlap more and more with the exhaust and past a point won't start. Well... if you were running a side-port exhaust with its dwell, you could open the intake port earlier than is possible for a standard exhaust engine, no?

Of course, then you have to get more exhaust port area (maybe)...


Oh, as another thought about Scalli's choke idea; what about a bigass square port, like out to the limits of what the seals will ride in. Then just have a series of chokes with less port timing to experiment with on an engine dyno and use it as a research engine. Seems to me that you could cover pretty close to the full range of possible port configs.


Finally, again I know that ports bigger than a certain size won't run at a low enough RPM to start the engine, but if you had some of the original side ports just to get it running and up to 3k RPM? Obviously this would turn out something pretty peaky, but... *shrug*

Just throwin' out thoughts.

Lasse wankel

Of the 3 PPs that i have dynoed this year i am using 43mm chokes with the 44mm id PP hole (297hp) and 42mm chokes with 42mm id PP hole (272 and 276 hp) E-tubes always F-7 with mains 240-250 and air jets 140-160. On our dragracing motor we use 48mm chokes with id PP hole 49mm (rectangular shape)

Kenku

Okay, here's a question. My family has just acquired a full out Bridgeport mill thanks to a ridiculous deal on a used one. Of yet I don't know a hell of a lot about machining things; what would be a "proper" tool to bore holes for a pport?

I mean, I could put a 2" holesaw in it, but that seems kinda silly now.

Scalliwag

Any other tool I can think of is going to be cutting more metal (bigger chips, etc.) Even though it may not be conventional I don't see a more efficient cutter even without expense in mind.
Since the cutting path is so thin it will cut faster than anything else making that big a hole.
Be sure to get the carbide tipped bi-metal holesaw blade.
Congrats on the Bridgeport! I will I could find a deal on one I could not walk away from.

chairchild

hehe

I'm so faffin cheap, I'm just getting a couple of cheap holebores and using a hand drill.

If it breaks, I'll repair it using yet more unconventional methods

Scalliwag

I feel sorry for your drill and your wrists. There is a huge amount of imbalance on the load as your are going through.
Even drilling through a door with a big holesaw is an asskicker when one side grabs and that ain't nothing compared to when your go through the hardchrome on a housing.
Good luck, use a lot of oil and be careful.

Kenku

Hmmm. Okay, that's an answer I wasn't expecting to hear, but something of a welcome one.

Carbide tipped would probably work better; in my second practice housing on our drill press, the normal bi-metal one I was using seemed to... ah... stop cutting so well by the time it got to the iron bit.

Still going to have to get "real" tools for the Bridgeport, as I've other projects in mind (sequential shifter!) but... the peripheral port one was one of the most important.

chairchild

I've had a few thoughts about this again, and If I'm going to be doing this cheaply, I need to use common stuff that I've got lying around.

I'm thinking about simply dumping the housing in a vat of car-oil, supporting it in some sort of vice, then drilling into it whilst it's still bathed in oil.

But that would use LOADS of oil, and I'd get the stuff flying everywhere. So I think I'll just get a mate to pour oil over it from a jug (or a bucket with a tap in the bottom)

i've also just remembered that my Dad's got a HUGE drill in his shed, so that should make the drilling a tad easier - that thing is almost two foot long!!

But I might have to make a support panel to ensure it won't move, a vice will either move or warp the housings now I think of it. Two bits of tubing and a bit of metal sheeting should suffice.

Don't mind me - I'm just thinking as I'm typing.

But I have to admit, the hardest part will be the fuelling. Since I want to run a semi-PP and I only want the PPs to open at high RPMs. I'm thinking about having the carbs for the PPS operated from vacuum, does anyone know if the diaphragm from the NIKKI carb would work like this?

yallgotboost

best bet would be a small hole saw and then use an adjts boring head thats what i did

Scalliwag

It finally dawned on me on why I probably thought about the holesaw idea to begin with. One of my early fabrication jobs introduced me to a magnetic based drill.
I found out why they used a holesaw type drill bit for larger holes the hard way.
If you ever see really large steel poles like the ones used for lights around big freeway interchanges that was what this shop built.
They have to drill various holes in the poles for the cabling system that lowers the big ring of lights.
With the poles on their side Scalli had a short run of drilling the holes. The magnetic base stuck to the pole and you drilled a hole.
Well I could not find the right annular bit one time and I snuck to the drill press area and snagged a regular bit.
I used the one drill we had with a regular chuck and fired that bad boy up.
Everything was great until right when it went to go through (as usual) and it grabbed. It grabbed so hard that the magnet let go. I was straddling the pole and it whacked the hell out of me but at least the bit was away at the time.
My boss caught on the the ruckus and came to check and bitched me out and explained that was the reason we did not use regular bits. Of course by that time I had already figured that out.
Since the annular bit grabs less mass it takes less power and less risk of kickback. As I found out it could still happen with an annular if enough force is applied.

Here are what those bits are like, basically a holesaw with an attitude. http://www.durabore.com/annular-cutters-durabore.htm

chairchild

now i could do with one of those 1 1/2" bores

Scalliwag

Those are horribly expensive. Even on Ebay the bigger ones will bust the bank compared to a holesaw.
For example the 1.5" you want lists for $130.
If you look at the holes I made with $15 holesaws I cannot see spending the big money now that this process has been proven to work.
They make a carbide grit holesaw that is supposed to be even better.

chairchild

haha - i know they cost shitloads, but i still wouldn't mind having one for my project