Dyno chart: 337 / 284 @ .83 boost, stock block, turbos
 

:o:
On a base map (PFC), 337 rwhp / 284 lbs torque @ .83 boost. Stock block, turbos, and stock injectors for this run. A/F was solid 11's across the board.:D

Tuning will start once the 850s get put back into the primary spots.

Included is a chart from the data logged from the run.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/dv8/337/337.jpg
http://home.columbus.rr.com/dv8/337/337data.jpg

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j/k :D
Nice power, you still haven't given me a ride ;).

Anytime, let's go.

Another dyno event is coming up in 2 weeks somewhere off of Lyman drive I hope. ;) You going bring a beast out for some testing?

Should be a good one to come to. At least 2 of us are planning on going over 380 RWHP @ <.85 Bar. Video and witnesses are going to be needed ;)

Those are GREAT numbers. I dyno'd at 330rwhp at .85psi some time ago but with the thing moderately tuned (but still very rich), not off of the base maps. I went to Pettit last weekend and only pulled 308rwhp which has me wondering a bit if my motor is completely healthy. Idles/runs fine however and my drag times have stayed identical to what they were previously. Maybe it was his dyno setup since I don't use Pettit's tuning/engine porting :-) I'll try and post my maps here soon.

What were your IAT's? The only other items that I can think of which would create such dramatically lower readings would be the excessively humid/hot air here in S. Florida and a toasty IC. I was seeing 55 degrees C. on the PFC for IAT's. I also have a lower intake manifold leak, around the EGR, which might be causing the loss but Cam didn't think it would drop hp much.

Sorry to hijack the thread. Nice numbers regardless! We have almost identical modifications except for the FMIC and injectors. I'd be curious to see what you'd pull using my maps which are on the Datalogit web page.

Michel,

Thanks! I'll do your maps next time out on the dyno (~2 weeks.)

We dyno'ed at almost 1am on this past Friday, outdoors. The highest HP run was the 4th one...not more than 5 minutes between runs. First couple were really low due to boost controller learning issues (AVC-R.) The ambient air temp. was still in the high 70's, 80's, with a comfortable humidity rating. IAT started at 50C, but was recorded as 31C with a bag of ice on the UIM. I am thinking about replacing the stock IAT sensor with a faster acting one. Do you know what the output ranges are on the stock sensors?

Last time out, I ran 318 / 280 at .75bar in 95 F, 90% humidity...but no A/F numbers that time, hence the need of this session to "baseline."

God I wish I knew because it's one of my pet peeves...it takes forever for the IAT to react! Let me know what you make as it may be my engine or their dyno. Who knows.

I'll be hitting a different dyno on August 3 as we're hosting a dyno/bbq for the Mazda Rotary Car Club of Florida (www.mrccfl.com). I'll get all of my dyno runs scanned in soon. I'm interested to see what everyone thinks.
Michel

Michel,

I'll start a thread about the IAT sensor and what I find and pm you the link. I have a new, aftermarket one, to test with, and I'll be testing the stock one when I pull off the UIM to put the 850's back in (the primaries.)

Post those charts! You datalogging when you dyno, too? I'd be interested in that too.

Will do. I'll take everything into work with me today. I can't get my scanner to work on my new G4 at home, sigh...it's an old scanner. Anyhoo, I was not datalogging as I couldn't get the interface to respond. Two others were counting on my datalogit to make a few changes. I think my serial to usb adapter went out, not sure, but it's been a PITA. :-) We're hitting the dyno again on August 3 for the SW Florida Rotary gathering (dyno/drag/rally/bbq) and I'll datalog the runs as well.
Michel

I managed to get everything scanned in today at work. I'll post my last dyno run at Pettit FIRST and then I'll start at the beginning, when I first started modding the car and made my first dyno runs. The more I look at the graphs the more suspicious I am, so much so that I'm considering going down to the local dyno this weekend.

I also managed to find a new USB to serial adapter so I should have my datalogit up and running again this week as well.

The two runs on the attached dyno were done last Saturday with my current mods listed in my signature. Stock engine, stock turbos, .9 to .95 of boost, essentially 13psi. Runs were made in the afternoon, ambient air temp was around 90+, high humidity. Plugs are about 5-7K old, oil to be changed in 1000 miles, lower intake manifold leak.

Oh forgot to mention that I took a few percentages of fuel out using the PIM setting to clean up the upper midrange for the second run. I gained 1hp but lost 5ft.lbs of torque, most likely due to heat. I did drive 2+ hours to get there as well. I knew I was still running pretty rich but it was better than what I thought it would have been. I did a bit of seat of the pants tuning and leaned it out in the middle previously, but it wasn't enough. It looks pretty decent after adjusting things with the PIM. I may richen it up a bit at the top end.
Michel
Michel

Ok, here's my first trip to a Dynojet fairly close to the point where I started to modify my car. My mods at the time were N-Tech intake, downpipe, stock main cat, stock IC, PFC, GReddy PE cat-back. I also brought the CWR intercooler with me for testing. Stock injectors/fuel system. The Dyno Shop (that's the name of the place) did not have an integral 02, just a hand held so no a/f plots.

Ok, this one is basically the same as the previous, but this time I swapped in the CWR intercooler. I have stock and CWR on this dyno plot for comparison. Note the stock was tested first thus the car was hotter when I ran with the CWR. Took me about 10 minutes to swap thanks to not having the stock duct work installed. The last run, in green, ends abruptly as he thought the a/f was going a bit lean. My IC coupling on the y-pipe discharge also popped off. Talk about skipping a heartbeat...he slaps on the roof to kill the run (I'm behind the wheel). Just as I lift (throttle plates close), POP! Off comes the pipe. I thought I had just blown my engine, LOL. Not funny at the time though :-) Still using the stock fuel system and hitting maybe mid to upper 80's in duty cycle.

Oh, the PFC had not really been tuned for the CWR IC, which on the dyno, doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

Since my duty cycles were not in my "comfort" zone, I elected to send it back to SR Motorsports to have it retuned for 850 primary/secondaries. They did an EXTRAORDINARY job. I located a dynojet operator with an integrated wideband too. All the modifications are the same as previously, it's just tuned to take advantage of the IC and more boost :-) The stock main cat/airpump is still in place. I believe I threw in a Walbro 255lph fuel pump at this point too.
Michel

While 290+ RWHP is nice, more is better! I got in on the group buy for Pettit's resonated midpipe and ordered a set of 1300cc secondaries. I went back to the stock 550 primaries and sent the PFC off to SR for retuning. I did not pay (just for the record!) which is a good thing...I posted the best of the previous runs with the main cat still in place. Check out my post 1300cc a/f ratios. They're so rich that they are off the chart! So at this point I'm fully modded and I added an HKS ignition too. I "think" I may have had an ACT in with a lightweight flywheel but I can't remember off hand. Actually I believe I added it later as the stock clutch lasted a pretty darn good time given the fact I was abusing it on the strip.
Michel

To say that I was disappointed in my post-midpipe hp figures would be an understatement. I actually installed the midpipe and enriched the PFC a bit on my own previous to sending it out to Ray. It was a complete and utter animal before the tuning and it felt slower when the computer returned. The a/f numbers tell the story!

What to do? Hit the dyno of course! I must have made 15 pulls but we managed to gain about 30hp. Well worth the effort. I did not have the datalogit for the PFC (wasn't even around back then) so I had to use the tiny fuel menu maps to tune. Took a long time to make changes, that's for sure. In some places, I took out 16 "clicks" of fuel. As we got close, we made the decision to be better safe than sorry. Meaning I'll drive it around and see how it feels before making additional changes. Everything seemed great and with that map/tuning, I managed a 7.8 in the 1/8's at 90+mph, roasted a few Z06's and a 550 Maranello, etc...needless to say I was having great fun!

Forgot to mention...the lower hp line is the starting "baseline" run which is almost identical to the dynojet in terms of hp numbers. No torque as we could not get a setting on the Clayton to work. Oh yeah. It's not a dynojet. It's one of a handful of new, state of the art Claytons that does EVERYTHING a dynojet does (inertia runs) and more, including peak/hold runs which loads the engine until it cannot accelerate any further (best for tuning and getting ACCURATE a/f numbers at precise rpm points).

The top hp run is where we finished up. 330rwhp! These are uncorrected numbers as well, so they were hp numbers for 92 degree ambient temps. An M5 dynoed the same peak hp meaning I'm making about 395 at the flywheel. Yummy.

Since the Clayton numbers were almost identical to the Dynojets, I have utmost faith in the Clayton numbers. The next dyno is where it gets controversial....

Ok, this dyno plot represents my car versus that of Ryan Wolfe. Ryan has a Pettit hybrid primary turbo, Pettit's porting and lots of other Pettit parts. Ryan, who is a friend I might add, "says" he's only making 7psi. I did not see his PFC peak reading after the run. Ryan says he has a few other problems with the car as well, can't remember what they are. Not flaming you Ryan, I just can't verify anything and I'm a bit suspicious about my numbers.

The mileage difference between my last 330rwhp run and my 308rwhp run last Saturday was approximately 20,000 miles. I had new plugs on the 330rwhp run versus plugs that had about 5K miles on them. I did drive 2+ hours to get to the Pettit dyno and it was pretty steamy on both days. Altitude is more than likely, identical.

What gets me is that Ryan is making a few less hp at almost HALF the boost level. Just doesn't seem realistic that porting would make that much of a difference with stock turbos/redline. I did make 30+ft.lbs. of torque than he did which is also pretty interesting. His torque "curve" is almost flat as a board. Pretty amazing. I have a huge hit which holds for a bit at 5K. My maps for this run were the same on the fuel side, using slightly modified timing maps based on some XS maps (in combination with my previous tuning maps, not an outright conversion to the XS timing map).

So...I think I'll hit another dyno this weekend if I have the time. I'm really curious. If it comes out similar, I owe Pettit and Cam an apology for insinuating anything unethical :-) I had no intentions of doing the former, but my numbers are REALLY not where they should be. At the moment, it's tempting to blame the dyno, LOL. Then again, we all like to believe our cars are in perfect condition. If the numbers come in low again, it's off to get a compression check.

For those on the datalogit group list, I have posted my maps there so feel free to dyno with them if you are running the same combo. I'd like to see what your numbers are with this tuning! Comments/facts/opinions appreciated.

Interesting stuff, Michel. My R1 is at RP right now for some dyno fine-tuning after a Jacobs Pro Pack install.


My 368 rwhp run at KDRotary never yielded a hard copy b/c Dave's hard drive crashed shortly after the runs, so I'm having RP dyno me in an attempt to come close to that 368 figure. Of course, dynoing in July in TX will prolly not give the same numbers as in Jan in PA :)

I'll keep you all posted on how it comes out...

Excellent. Yeah heat takes it's toll although the dynojet is supposed to correct for atmospheric. Thing is, it doesn't adjust for the IC and engine heat soak :-) I love Florida, but there's really only a 3 month slot where we have anything approaching "normal" temps. I worked in Dallas for a bit over a year and I can say it's the only place I've been that's consistently hotter in the summer than SW Florida. Then again, they don't have anywhere near the humidity level!

Be sure to post your results. I'd greatly appreciate it.
Michel

Michel,

If I was in FLA I'd stop over and force you/help you to get that LIM leak addressed!

You have alot of torque missing. Get those plugs out of there! I run platinum 9's in all 4 and am getter better plug wear from the trailings from the base maps.

My 318 run was made in very similar conditions, but at .75 bar. Torque was still higher.

Checking out the other charts...

Holy sheet! Healthy graph.

Ryans seems close to my 318 @ .75 bar run. Incremental gains. Would be nice to make 636 @ 1.5 bar! :D

Torque still seems about 20 ft. lbs too low.

Have you considered making a run at .7 or so bar? I did it by accident, but I have appreciated having the data associated with that pull.

Datalog! Man, I don't know what I would do without the dataloging.

And, I just heard that my wideband is being sent out in the next 7 days! :D

Let us know how the runs stack up.

Will do. Thanks for the feedback. I'll run over to Advance Auto and get a set. I do run 9's all the way around, plats. Maybe I'll make a few lower boost runs as well.
Michel

Except for that one spike Baddog, our torque output is pretty similar. If you look at my "spike" after transition, it's much flatter. I think you're still about 10ft.lbs. higher than I am however.
Michel

BadDog - How do you like the 850 pri injectors? When you installed them did you mill down your rail or use a extra oring? Did it affect driveability any or did you just install them, change it in the PFC and go? I'm fixing to install 850pri and have heard it might take some tuning to get my car nice and smooth.

What do you think about that?

oh yea, NICE dyno chart!!!! With some drag radials or slicks you'll be brushing high 11's!!!!!!

Thanks,
STEPHEN

Stephen,
The 850's are fine if you dial them down at idle. If you look at my 290+ hp runs, check out the a/f ratio. Perfect. After taking out fuel at idle they were perfect.

I used 550cc O-rings and had no problems.
Michel

Stephen,

Drives great with 850s. I changed a couple of settings with the datalogit. I think all the INJ main settings for timing are available from the commander too, though. Not much tuing needed. You might have mess with a couple of idle settings, but not anything more than you have done before.

I did the O-ring method. Then I had hard starting. I thought the O-ring was leaking and I may have used non-fuel safe rings. So I took them out. Plus, I wanted a dyno run with A/F on stock injectors first. Still had the hard starting (have to key it over twice to start is all) ever since the new fuel pump. Was thinking it was leak at the fuel pump, but its consistent at least.

Thanks! I like the chart too! :D Been taking my time and doing things slowly since '96.

I have a set of rims that might get some slicks on them, once (read:if) I get up to near 380RWHP. Goal of all this is to get a consistent performer that can run 11's and still drive everyday.

RX7tt95

Great post, thanks for the info. I'm a couple steps behind you, this gives me an idea of the power gains I can expect. I'm suprised that the IC provided only a 13hp increase (even in light of the circumstances).

IC's generally show very little on the dyno. They're most effective at speed. The stock IC is very small, and at moderate boost levels, not very restrictive. There's also less volume to fill. I tested the stock, M2 medium and CWR back to back, and all were within 5 hp. Go figure.
Michel

Did some checking on the IAT sensor and how it responds to changes in the UIM.

thread here

So are you saying you did the oring methond then pulled out the extra oring just using the normal stock 850 oring or the stock 550 oring and it was better just stock like that. Did you mill down the rail or anything so they would seat deeper? Did you ever find out what the hard starting was about???

BTW - good work on the iat, i always speculated that but didnt have another sensor to check it.

Thanks man,
STEPHEN

I am going to do it differently, when I put them back in. I am going to use the method that Michel suggests, use the O-ring from the 550s. Next method I would use would be to mill, and lastly, add more O-rings.

The way I had it before was the last one, an additional O-ring. It was good for testing, but needless to say I was second guessing myself alot.

I still have the hard starting, and Nocab72 and I have confirmed that it started for both us right after we upgraded fuel pumps. It starts on the 2nd key-turn, rather than the first. This is with fresh plugs for both of us. This testing has not escalated up my project list since the behavior is consistent, and currently just an irritant.

I re-charted the datalog to include knock. Someone was asking to see it.

Just to let those who are interested know, I was not able to dyno again this weekend. The two local dynojets are both closed, with the one at Lethal Injection out of the ground and disassembled (after a move). The Dyno Shop is closed til early August, sigh...so I'm SOL unless I want to drive to the other side of the state.

I did talk to the owner of The Dyno Shop (Phil) and I told him about my predicament. He commented that there's really only one way to fudge the numbers if they're using WinPep and that is to change the elevation reading. The operator does not have access to temp/barometer/humidity readings. So for some reason, I'm down about 30hp. Guess this is where the hard part begins!
Michel

the first dyno chart.
 

on the first dyno graph, was this a fourth gear run? i'm concerned with the midpipe i just installed. did your stock turbos creep at all? and what was the transition spike? and since you were using stock injectors.. what was the injector cycle max?

i have access to a dynojet. and i ran a 4th gear pull with my mods with the stock cat in place. i got 246hp SAE, 252hp uncorrected with a/f ratio in the 10s measured by a wideband lamda.

with my midpipe my car now sits around waiting for a PFC. was the pfc tuned for that run or was it still a base mod/stock map.

Are you referring to my dyno graphs or badogs? The first dyno run (which was actually my latest) was done in third gear. And actually, I didn't think about that...perhaps that's part of the reason my runs were so low. All my previous runs were made in 4th. I do experience a bit of boost creep, but it's usually when I stomp on the gas in 5th, on the highway, in the lower rpm range. Otherwise, there isn't much. I use the AVC-R for boost control (which is/was a PITA to tune) and I do run the PFC. For safety, I've essentially maxed out the fuel maps above my desired boost levels. If I spike, it just goes overly rich. With tuning, you can remove the spike entirely with the AVC-R or the stock boost control system.
Michel

i was referring to badogs. but thanks for your input anyways. with the pfc's being backordered it gives me time to think about tuning issues.

for the moment i feel like sticking the cat back on just because of all the bad things that start to happen with a 3" open exhaust.

i already experience 16 psi spikes and a fuel cut following.. that was the first and only test drive. now my car is just being babied around when i go out. cant stand it when i line up with a car that i know i can beat stock and i cant even floor it =)

I'd recommend putting the stock cat back on then. If you don't have anything to control the spikes (aftermarket controller or PFC) and the tuning isn't there for a midpipe, you're asking for trouble.
Michel

Re: the first dyno chart.
 

Dyno pulls are generally done in the a gear close to 1:1, which for us IS 4th gear.

The 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th questions are all answered already.

You can see the creep in the 2nd chart (not much), the spike is shown on the chart, the duty cycle is shown on the chart (93%) and it was a base map.

You mention your dyno pull but not at what boost you were at?

The PFC, in combination with the DATALOGIT, is the ticket. I don't have enough experience with the HALTECH, which I would consider a step up, but for ease of use and community support for tuning, PFC works for me. ;)

Regards

thanks BADDOG

i ran my car on stock boost. on my run i hit 10psi on the primary then it spiked to 14 psi at the 4500rpm transition and quickly settled down to 8 psi all the way to redline.

a/f ratio was in the 10s through out the entire run.

here's my dyno run

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=100386

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IC's generally show very little on the dyno. They're most effective at speed. The stock IC is very small, and at moderate boost levels, not very restrictive. There's also less volume to fill. I tested the stock, M2 medium and CWR back to back, and all were within 5 hp. Go figure.
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I have been contemplating buying an intercooler...help me make my decision. My thinking now is that unless you road race (track) a car or run anything over 12.5 psi an IC really isnt needed. I am thinking that at 12 psi the stock ic will yield the same rwhp and 1/4 times as 12 psi w/ a large after mkt ic.

I really dont plan to track the car. My thesis is i will only benefit from an IC if i run more than 12 psi. Is this correct?

thanks...matt

rx7tt or baddog, did you guys have to port your wastegates running this much hp?

Since the boost is moderate, no, no port of the wastegate.

I can tell from the 2nd chart that any more boost and I am going need to address the wastegate.

Well, I think of it as intake air temperatures and what how big (and what kind) of heat sink I want.

You cannot argue the relationship of intake air temperatures and horsepower. (Let's not even talk about gases and super-heating the combustion air...ala Smokey Yunicks <sp> direction)

You CAN "work" the intake air temp. down to make more horsepower at a given ambient air temperature.

So, how quickly can your "heatsink" get back or close to ambient air?

Hookup a couple of air temperature probes and drive around with them for awhile. I did that for over a year before I upgraded anything on the car.

I am very happy with my FMIC. My car has never run cooler or better. Of course I upgraded my radiator too! ;)

Re: Dyno chart: 337 / 284 @ .83 boost, stock block, turbos
 

Nice numbers, but I'm a bit confused. Did you say stock block as in stock motor, no porting? A ported motor with all the bolt on mods, will pull 340rwhp @13psi, and usually around 320rwhp @12psi.

So if you pulled near 340rwhp at 12psi on a bone stock motor with no porting, then I'm shocked :eek:

I know someone is going to raise the flag on me....and to be honest, i would'nt have beleived it if i did'nt see it with my own eyes....but anyways....there is a guy in my rotary power northwest club who has all the bolt-ons with a rebuilt engine with no porting, and stock turbos who just put down 354rwhp@7250rpms! Randall is the guys name. Like i said, if i had'nt seen the dyno sheet form excessive motorsports....i would have NEVER beleived it for myself. CJ

CJ, if you look at my charts, I hit 330 with a/f ratios in the low to mid 10's. 340, even 350 is possible on the stock engine with the sequentials at 14psi and agressive tuning.
Michel

Re: Re: Dyno chart: 337 / 284 @ .83 boost, stock block, turbos
 

Stock means it's never been opened.

And since the last time I checked, you had to OPEN it up to port it, it must mean its not ported. ;)

If you're going to be shocked, be shocked its on a basemap. With tuning and no bending of physics, it should make more than that tuned.

I was forced to go on vacation and missed my last Friday window for tuning.

Good news is that my wideband O2 is in and I can start street tuning in between dyno sessions.