20b vs 2jz
06-08-05, 06:10 PM
#51
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My other car is a 3200 lb (where the hell did 3800 come from?) 3rd Gen camaro trackslut. It has one of the old iron SBC's. I'd rather modify that than spend the dough on a LS1, but later on down the road I just might - mostly becuase i'd also get a T-56 with it, and it would be a lot of work. I'll need to at least put down the dough for a TKO-5 if I get a blower so my transmission doesnt strip the gears out if I run slicks.
Now, about this "us vs them" thing you get off on - bully for you! But you missed ALL of my points about power vs weight in your little diatribe about your preference of rotaries and how heavy you assume my car is. LS1s weigh about the same as a 13B-REW with all the accompanying turbo **** thrown in. You must not have seen the post about the guy with a LS1 in a FD RX-7 thats very slightly TAIL HEAVY after the swap, so its not like the weight is higher, or all the other posts that indicate how the stock balance seems to remain after the swap.
And yeah, it IS just about power to weight, if youre racing, and dont have to worry about reilability, and have gobs of cash to throw down - but with a small displacement motor youre going to run into a brick wall of diminishing returns. a LS-series V8 FD RX-7 will always beat a 13B-REW, buck for buck. Once you get into the gigantic drag turbos for the stocker 13B (with a giant port to go with it) reliability and longevity start to go to ****, and you also have made the car utterly unstreetable. Its race only. The power band would also be useless for a autocross.
I could put a 1000 hp turbo on a LS1 and still have streetable lowend from its displacement alone. Also, when it reached the point of diminishing returns, your rear suspension, rear diff, and transmission would be long gone and replaced with aftermarket jobs, I doubt a T-56 could hold up to too much power for too long.
The FD is a great car, and the 13b-REW is a very interesting motor, and I dont plan on getting rid of mine anytime soon. But, engine to engine, a LS series motor is simply superior to it in every way, even if you take modifications into account. The only possible downside to it would be dimensions (but not by much) or ricer bigotry against "the v8s". BTW, its a 2.6 liter engine.
P.S. - 1900 lbs? What are you driving, a tube-chassis funnycar? I dont know how the hell you expect the 1900 lbs to have **** to do with the engine, because Its already been demonstrated REPEATEDLY that a LS1 doesnt weigh more than a 13b-REW, and a stock FD weighs around 2800 lbs wet w/o a driver.
I could go get a blower, put it on a 427 aluminum block, throw in some AFR heads, properly sized headers w/ true dual exhaust, the right cam, and put that in some tube chassis and stick a fiberglass shell over it and blow away everything on the road. Hell, I could put that in a 3800 lb car! (a luxury car apparently) Try to compare apples to apples - which is the two different engines, in the same car!
Now, about this "us vs them" thing you get off on - bully for you! But you missed ALL of my points about power vs weight in your little diatribe about your preference of rotaries and how heavy you assume my car is. LS1s weigh about the same as a 13B-REW with all the accompanying turbo **** thrown in. You must not have seen the post about the guy with a LS1 in a FD RX-7 thats very slightly TAIL HEAVY after the swap, so its not like the weight is higher, or all the other posts that indicate how the stock balance seems to remain after the swap.
And yeah, it IS just about power to weight, if youre racing, and dont have to worry about reilability, and have gobs of cash to throw down - but with a small displacement motor youre going to run into a brick wall of diminishing returns. a LS-series V8 FD RX-7 will always beat a 13B-REW, buck for buck. Once you get into the gigantic drag turbos for the stocker 13B (with a giant port to go with it) reliability and longevity start to go to ****, and you also have made the car utterly unstreetable. Its race only. The power band would also be useless for a autocross.
I could put a 1000 hp turbo on a LS1 and still have streetable lowend from its displacement alone. Also, when it reached the point of diminishing returns, your rear suspension, rear diff, and transmission would be long gone and replaced with aftermarket jobs, I doubt a T-56 could hold up to too much power for too long.
The FD is a great car, and the 13b-REW is a very interesting motor, and I dont plan on getting rid of mine anytime soon. But, engine to engine, a LS series motor is simply superior to it in every way, even if you take modifications into account. The only possible downside to it would be dimensions (but not by much) or ricer bigotry against "the v8s". BTW, its a 2.6 liter engine.
P.S. - 1900 lbs? What are you driving, a tube-chassis funnycar? I dont know how the hell you expect the 1900 lbs to have **** to do with the engine, because Its already been demonstrated REPEATEDLY that a LS1 doesnt weigh more than a 13b-REW, and a stock FD weighs around 2800 lbs wet w/o a driver.
I could go get a blower, put it on a 427 aluminum block, throw in some AFR heads, properly sized headers w/ true dual exhaust, the right cam, and put that in some tube chassis and stick a fiberglass shell over it and blow away everything on the road. Hell, I could put that in a 3800 lb car! (a luxury car apparently) Try to compare apples to apples - which is the two different engines, in the same car!
06-08-05, 06:59 PM
#52
Originally Posted by ErnieT
More reliable than what? A 13B? I throw up the BS flag there. Making a 500hp 13B reliable is easy. I know, Iv'e done it. And with a bone stock motor too. Do that with your LS1!
ErnieT I think he means that a 13b wont be as reliable in the long run when compared to the larger displacement LS1. We all know that a 13b can make a **** load of power (even with a stock block) but would you expect a 13b to last 100K making 500hp? I know a 8.0L Viper V10 will. Displacment is key when making lots of hp for extended periods of time.
Last edited by t-von; 06-08-05 at 07:07 PM.
06-08-05, 07:19 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by 13btnos
Yes I'll admit that the 2JZ and an LS1 motor will make more power and be more reliable than my rotary. But will I switch? Hell no I won't! It's all about preference I like all sorts of engines but I'm loyal to the rotary engine. Those who say they are unreliable and blow up don't have the patience and experience with rotarys. Yes they are finicky motors but if you know what your doing and take the time and spend the money to build them correctly and tune them properly they are just like any other engine and can be made reliable. Yes I can make a reliable 500rwhp, more like 580rwhp, and I'm only pushing 1900lbs and that's with me in it. Nihilanthic what's your car weigh and what kind of horsepower are you making with your LS1? That's if you even have one. Sorry a rotary has it's place and it's not in a 3800lb car. Put a rotary in something light and nimble and you will be tearing things up. People always forget power to weight ratio. I drag race and that's all I think about not just making horsepower but how to get my car the lightest and how I get that power to the ground. Sorry I'm a rotary fanatic you can have your LS1's and 2JZ I'll stick with what I know. And I love racing V8's especially when they get beat and ask what I have and I tell them it's only 1.3L. Which it isn't, actually 3.9L, but they don't know the difference.
06-08-05, 08:10 PM
#55
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His PREFERENCE is the rotary. He likes them. Thats fine! I like rotaries too!
But, its not going to be as reliable in the long run as a engine with larger displacement, and pistons, or both. I'm not trying to be an *** here, but v8-bashing is ridiculous.
BTW, I could put virtually anything in something thats "light and nimble" and still tear ***. My point that a LS1 weighs the same as the rotary in the FD RX-7 stands. Hell, look at the S2000, or RX-8. Not especially great engines (technologically theyre amazing, but as far as using them goes you have to beat on them to get the rated performance, and they still suck compared to a FD, LS1, or VQ35DE
) but the very, very good chassis they're mated to lets the car as a whole be worth owning and driving.
Also, your point about your car being at its lightest and using a 13B... makes no sense, when a LS v8 weighs the same! Also, putting the power down has to do with your tires, suspension, and drivetrain layout.
It ultimately adds up to power to weight ratio, and if the powerband is actually useable. For a street car, 'streetability' also comes into play. A 13B CAN do all of that, but its not going to magically lower your race weight anymore than using an aluminum blocked small block v8, or any other light motor, and it starts to reach the point of diminishing returns (and **** streetability) faster than a bigger motor when you tune it more and more aggressively, because at its heart its a 2.6 liter engine that has sensitive compression seals, thermal inefficiency, but is buttery smooth, has a soul all its own, and a nice loud exhaust note with those peripheral ports.
I LIKE rotaries. But I'm not going to Pipedream about it until Mazda makes it less prone to breaking apex seals, and does something about that whole thermal efficiency thing. Wider, shorter rotors and longer, skinnier sidehousings to make it more square? Ceramic Coatings? Super fancy dynamic porting? I dont know, I dont know the answer to the million dollar question, but its very interesting and its something fun, especially in the next few years as Mazda develops the Renesis further, and we see what the new RX-7 turns out to be, and when hydrogen-powered renesises start to show up on the market.
But in the end, a 13b is a case of small displacement, big turbo. It is what it is and its not what it isnt, and its only an engine. Passion is fine, just dont let it cloud judgement.
But, its not going to be as reliable in the long run as a engine with larger displacement, and pistons, or both. I'm not trying to be an *** here, but v8-bashing is ridiculous.
BTW, I could put virtually anything in something thats "light and nimble" and still tear ***. My point that a LS1 weighs the same as the rotary in the FD RX-7 stands. Hell, look at the S2000, or RX-8. Not especially great engines (technologically theyre amazing, but as far as using them goes you have to beat on them to get the rated performance, and they still suck compared to a FD, LS1, or VQ35DE
) but the very, very good chassis they're mated to lets the car as a whole be worth owning and driving.Also, your point about your car being at its lightest and using a 13B... makes no sense, when a LS v8 weighs the same! Also, putting the power down has to do with your tires, suspension, and drivetrain layout.
It ultimately adds up to power to weight ratio, and if the powerband is actually useable. For a street car, 'streetability' also comes into play. A 13B CAN do all of that, but its not going to magically lower your race weight anymore than using an aluminum blocked small block v8, or any other light motor, and it starts to reach the point of diminishing returns (and **** streetability) faster than a bigger motor when you tune it more and more aggressively, because at its heart its a 2.6 liter engine that has sensitive compression seals, thermal inefficiency, but is buttery smooth, has a soul all its own, and a nice loud exhaust note with those peripheral ports.
I LIKE rotaries. But I'm not going to Pipedream about it until Mazda makes it less prone to breaking apex seals, and does something about that whole thermal efficiency thing. Wider, shorter rotors and longer, skinnier sidehousings to make it more square? Ceramic Coatings? Super fancy dynamic porting? I dont know, I dont know the answer to the million dollar question, but its very interesting and its something fun, especially in the next few years as Mazda develops the Renesis further, and we see what the new RX-7 turns out to be, and when hydrogen-powered renesises start to show up on the market.
But in the end, a 13b is a case of small displacement, big turbo. It is what it is and its not what it isnt, and its only an engine. Passion is fine, just dont let it cloud judgement.
06-09-05, 09:46 AM
#56
Sorry Nihilanthic I don't drive an FD I have a Datsun 1200 which from the factory weighed 1664lbs. The car is gutted out and my cage is chromoly car is as light as I can get it and the whole front end is fiberglass. Different strokes for different folks. The rotary is just my preference and I love V8 also but I get off on building rotarys. I am in no way bashing domestic cars especially old classics but it pisses me off when people say rotarys are not reliable and they aren't worth the time to build. People with bad experience with rotarys probably didn't take the time to build it properly and didn't have the proper tuning skills. You can't just up the boost on a stock rotary and think that it will last you are asking for trouble. And also I did make the comment of a 2JZ/V8 would probably make more horsepower and be more reliable than a rotary. But that's not my cup of tea. When my car is all said and done I am hoping to be under 1900lbs with me in it and pushing over 600rwhp reliably. Now you talk about power to weight I drag race I know all about power to weight. That's why I have to lose about 40lbs off my fat ***. 
Oh on your statement of comparing apples to apples it can't be done. Different engines different cars that's just how it is. I love racing V8's I won't beat everyone but I will get my fair share of wins against them. That's the beauty of drag racing especially when it's a run what ya brung type of deal. You never now what's going to line up next to you. Trust me I supprise a lot of people with my little car and have got nothing but good comments from people and that would include V8 owners that I have beaten. Dollar for dollar rotary can't be beat if your building it on your own. I do all the port work, building and tuning off my car. I have less than $11000.00 total invested in my car and I look to be breaking into the nines in the quarter. The only other big expenses I have are to get it 3/4 chassis and get a transmission for it which will be a Gforce transmission. Those 2 things will cost me close to $10000.00 because I have to pay someone to do it. And when that's done I guarantee I will be breaking the 8's reliably. But until I get the chassis done I will be driving sideways down the track in my little Datsun 1200 on leaf spings.
Oh on your statement of comparing apples to apples it can't be done. Different engines different cars that's just how it is. I love racing V8's I won't beat everyone but I will get my fair share of wins against them. That's the beauty of drag racing especially when it's a run what ya brung type of deal. You never now what's going to line up next to you. Trust me I supprise a lot of people with my little car and have got nothing but good comments from people and that would include V8 owners that I have beaten. Dollar for dollar rotary can't be beat if your building it on your own. I do all the port work, building and tuning off my car. I have less than $11000.00 total invested in my car and I look to be breaking into the nines in the quarter. The only other big expenses I have are to get it 3/4 chassis and get a transmission for it which will be a Gforce transmission. Those 2 things will cost me close to $10000.00 because I have to pay someone to do it. And when that's done I guarantee I will be breaking the 8's reliably. But until I get the chassis done I will be driving sideways down the track in my little Datsun 1200 on leaf spings.
Last edited by 13btnos; 06-09-05 at 10:03 AM.
06-09-05, 05:11 PM
#57
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13btnos - I can put a LS1 in an FD that just had a 13B-REW in it, so theres your apples to apples. Its been done on this forum over and over.
As far as putting a 13B into a Datsun 1200 that weighs 1600... well, dude, a Celica GT-S motor in a 1900 lb Lotus Elise hauls ungodly ***, so its a bit of a copcout to say you could put something in a light car and make it fast. Virtually any non-shitty motor (hell, the GT-S motor sucks *** :/) in a sufficiently light car will make it MOVE.
BTW, I've heard of people putting big block chevys into CRXs, pintos, K-cars, old Z cars, and whatnot. It would be in a different class unless it was a 'run what ya brung' type of affair, but it would own your car granted it didnt flip itself over from the drivetrain inerta, or do a backflip off the line without a wheelie bar if it had sufficient traction.
I see your point about it being fully built up, and put in a custom chassis... but for street people there are some realistic things they have to run into, budget/technology/time and just practicality wise. Just dont think a built v8 in a chassis like yours wouldnt haul ungodly *** if they put the effort into the engine and chassis themselves :P
I just got this feeling of rotary vs v8 (which I run into [import motor] vs v8 **** all the time) from you, but I got the wrong impression. What youre doing is cool, but dont think that I couldnt get 600 rwhp easy as pie out of a v8 and put it into a tube chassis myself
As far as putting a 13B into a Datsun 1200 that weighs 1600... well, dude, a Celica GT-S motor in a 1900 lb Lotus Elise hauls ungodly ***, so its a bit of a copcout to say you could put something in a light car and make it fast. Virtually any non-shitty motor (hell, the GT-S motor sucks *** :/) in a sufficiently light car will make it MOVE.
BTW, I've heard of people putting big block chevys into CRXs, pintos, K-cars, old Z cars, and whatnot. It would be in a different class unless it was a 'run what ya brung' type of affair, but it would own your car granted it didnt flip itself over from the drivetrain inerta, or do a backflip off the line without a wheelie bar if it had sufficient traction.
I see your point about it being fully built up, and put in a custom chassis... but for street people there are some realistic things they have to run into, budget/technology/time and just practicality wise. Just dont think a built v8 in a chassis like yours wouldnt haul ungodly *** if they put the effort into the engine and chassis themselves :P
I just got this feeling of rotary vs v8 (which I run into [import motor] vs v8 **** all the time) from you, but I got the wrong impression. What youre doing is cool, but dont think that I couldnt get 600 rwhp easy as pie out of a v8 and put it into a tube chassis myself
06-09-05, 05:25 PM
#58
Hey no worrys I didn't want to get into a pissing fight of this is better than that. Like I said before different strokes for different folks a 9 second pass in a rotary is just as impressive as a 9 second pass in a V8 it takes alot of work with both motors to get to that figure. Besides that I love camaro's my dream car is a '70's split bumper twin turboed like this one http://www.hairstonmotorsports.com/ he races in PSCA and I go and watch it everytime they come around town. Oh check out the video it's amazing but nothing like seeing it in person. And it's a small block!
Last edited by 13btnos; 06-09-05 at 05:28 PM.
06-10-05, 02:13 PM
#59
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Hey, if it makes someone happy and hauls *** down a track, its all good 
The C5R (IIRC) uses a 427 smallblock, which is 7 liters. I've seen some custom blocks hit 454 (7.4 liters) on a small block, but the long *** stroke might be prohibitive for anything but drag racing, or forced induction applications. Also, the new C6 Z06 is an aluminum/titanium 427 500 horsepower at the flywheel bone stock, with plenty of room to grow. Also, big blocks can be easily up to the displacement of a viper.
Lingenfelter Turbo Vettes can hit 700-1000 hp+ easily, however for street cars its simply futile to try to get traction on the damn thing. Its unfortunate that a lot of v8s out there are 80s or early 90s ones that really are kind of wheezey, and there are tons of truck ones with the top end of a civic
Thats probably where all the anti v8 bigotry comes from.
Thankfully, the IROC-Z that me and my stepdad have our hands on is going to get the Tim Allen treatment, and then some... but Its never gonna be near what your car does, LOL.
The C5R (IIRC) uses a 427 smallblock, which is 7 liters. I've seen some custom blocks hit 454 (7.4 liters) on a small block, but the long *** stroke might be prohibitive for anything but drag racing, or forced induction applications. Also, the new C6 Z06 is an aluminum/titanium 427
500 horsepower at the flywheel bone stock, with plenty of room to grow. Also, big blocks can be easily up to the displacement of a viper. Lingenfelter Turbo Vettes can hit 700-1000 hp+ easily, however for street cars its simply futile to try to get traction on the damn thing. Its unfortunate that a lot of v8s out there are 80s or early 90s ones that really are kind of wheezey, and there are tons of truck ones with the top end of a civic
Thats probably where all the anti v8 bigotry comes from. Thankfully, the IROC-Z that me and my stepdad have our hands on is going to get the Tim Allen treatment, and then some... but Its never gonna be near what your car does, LOL.
06-12-05, 12:15 PM
#60
Originally Posted by 13btnos
Yes I'll admit that the 2JZ and an LS1 motor will make more power and be more reliable than my rotary. But will I switch? Hell no I won't! It's all about preference I like all sorts of engines but I'm loyal to the rotary engine. Those who say they are unreliable and blow up don't have the patience and experience with rotarys. Yes they are finicky motors but if you know what your doing and take the time and spend the money to build them correctly and tune them properly they are just like any other engine and can be made reliable. Yes I can make a reliable 500rwhp, more like 580rwhp, and I'm only pushing 1900lbs and that's with me in it.
like you, i've come to the conclusion that people are going to believe what they want to believe. of the 6 cars i've owned thus far, 4 have been Rx-7s and i've had my share of blowups, but in hindsight it wasn't because the rotary was weaker than the 2 Toyotas (both S-series engines) it was because i was an impatient kid trying to cut corners to make more power than my pockets could afford. the bottomline is i was stupid!
and i know that we can debate this from now until the 7 seals are broken, and neither side will wane, but for every rotary that chucks a seal or breaks housing, i promise you'll have either an idiot or a professional doing something that shouldn't have been done. i will concede that you don't get as many rotaries lasting 200K+ as you do Toyotas, but there are far more that last than are given credit.
i'm really not trying to prolong the debate or incite a new one, but that's just my 2 revs ...
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