Skylance

angelck022, mazdarx7racer - we've been through this already, it is standard procedure for him to wait for backup Before he pulls them over.

Bob the Normal - complicated situations = life = BASIC TRUTH or better put - The BASIC TRUTH is that life is full of complicated situations. honestly life is complicated and situations like that happen all the time. I won't argue with you. If you are comfortable with risking the lives of other motorists as well as yours, then by all means, feel free to go through red lights.

Barwick - We are risking our lives from the moment our existence begins. Nothing we do can take away all risks. But there are things we can do that minimize the risk. Traffic laws are a prime example of this effort. Don't misunderstand me - I'm no fan of "Big or Nanny Government". I simply don't believe that enforcing common sense is enough to classify it as a Nanny Government or as taking away your rights. I'm not sure if it is true, but a friend once told me that Mexico has no guard rails on most of the roads. They are completely FREE to drive off of a cliff - nobody is going to make an attempt to stop them. If our country is free, then why do we have guard rails? It is simply an attempt to minimize the risks we face in our daily life.

You never answered my question about your avatar. Is that your child? The point I was trying to make in my last post - slippery slope argument or not - is that even if there is nobody else in immediate danger, the people you love will suffer the consequences. Are you comfortable with never seeing your children grow up? Are you comfortable with having your family deeling with your pre-mature loss that you could have prevented?

Don't worry, no offense has been taken. Afterall, it is just the "intraweb", I don't take it that seriously. I'm simply stating my point of view in contrast to yours. I can honestly say that I have enjoyed our little "chat". I hope that you have too. Have a great day!

Barwick

Yes, I did answer the question... and yes it is my daughter in the avatar, what on God's green earth does that have to do with my point? "Oh, the people close to you will suffer..." no freaking crap. Do you think I'm stupid enough to blatantly risk my life? No, nowhere have I said that. And 99.999999999999999% of the people out there won't do that either.

The whole entire point is this: When someone is not endangering someone else, they are free to do as they please. And "as they please" in just about EVERY situation for just about EVERY person is "within the limits of safety..." which in some places where the speed limit is 55, is actually 45 mph for some people. And in other places where the speed limit is 70 mph, it's 135 for some people, and BOTH are just as safe based on the road and traffic conditions. It is actually MORE unsafe to post an artifically low speed limit (like 70 mph on a clear, straight, 4-lane highway) because some people will still drive the "maximum safe speed" (or closer to it), while others will obey the "absolute" speed limit of 70 mph, meaning there's a large variance in the speeds on the roads, which is MUCH more dangerous than if everyone was doing between 80 and 90 mph. Case in point, I696 here in Michigan where the speed limit it 65 but EVERYONE does almost at least 80, has much fewer accidents than I75 where the speed limit is 65 but half the people to 65, while some do 75, and others do 80+.

Nobody in their right mind is going to do 120 mph going onto a wraparound exit ramp, even if they could. Same goes for high speeds on the highway, they'll go as fast as they can for their visibility, weather, light, traffic conditions, etc... have you ever noticed that most people drive much slower at night on the highway when there's no street lights? Do you know why that is? Because they feel less safe driving fast without adequate lighting than they do in the day.

Same story with me, I routinely race at a local road race track here, and I don't go as fast as others do because I don't feel comfortably safe doing their speeds yet, even though in my mind I know perfectly well that I CAN go that fast (I just watched an identical car do it at +10 mph on my speed), but I don't yet.

Long story short: PEOPLE WILL CHANGE THEIR DRIVING TO SUIT THE CONDITIONS, AND ONLY GO AS FAST AS THEY SAFELY CAN.

Bob_The_Normal

I'm with Barwick more or less...

To backup his point, I would have to try to find the link, but several years ago a US highway was tested... for a few years they completely removed any speed limits on the road. They kept track of the accident occurances and severity.... later, they put the 70 limit back up. The records from the next year shot way up... deaths, accidents in general.

The speculated reason is one that I've suspected for a year now.... when I first got my car, the speedo cable wasn't hooked up right (project-ish car) and I really just wasn't that worried about hooking it up. Well, driving like that for so long (no speedo) I had only an idea of how fast I was going by the rpms... 5k in 5th is somewhere over 100... that's about all I knew. What I learned to do, was to just drive FOR THE SITUATION. Sometimes I went above 100mph, on a drive home once I went close to 120 the entire way for an hour. I didn't know it at the time, and if I had a speedo I would have slowed down... but it wasn't unsafe, it worked IN THAT SITUATION. Other situations, I found out that I tended to cruise at around 80-85 most of the time... before when I had a speedo in my old car I used to cruise at 85-90 just because it's faster and I like a nice round 90. Not to say I always cruised at the same speed... it depended on the time of day and traffic, I never chose a number to cruise at really... I just went as fast as was safe, even if something expected came up on the road.

Well, when I reinstalled my speedometer... I find my habits lean towards sticking to a solid number... if I notice I'm driving at an odd number I'll just speed up to a round number (83 up to 85 or 90) which is dumb, I know. But people do it, and they do NOT think about it... but they're going faster than even THEY feel is safe... but when you have a speedometer telling you you're ONLY going 10 or 20 over the speed limit, which everyone thinks to themselves is a conservative estimate, that doesn't apply to THEM, people lose track of their speed... and **** happens.

Biggest example anyone ever brings up is the Autobahn... no speed limit, less traffic accidents and deaths than any major highway in the US. Gee, wonder why? On the autobahn people pay attention to their car's speed because no one is telling them to look at the numbers... screw the numbers, you can just LOOK AROUND YOU. You are in a moving block of metal, you have a feeling of how fast you can go without it being dangerous. If you're going as fast as you want to safely, and someone else is going faster... who the **** cares? Get to the right, let them pass. Not in the ******* US. No, here everyone gets this god damn ego trip... "I'm only going 10 over the speedlimit and THAT IS ALL ANYONE ELSE SHOULD GO OVER. I NEED TO ENFORCE THIS!!! I WILL STAY IN THE LEFT LANE!!!" ******* American stupid egotistical pieces of ****. That attitude starts seeping into everything, the country starts thinking that that is just how it should be... they know what is best for EVERYONE, and **** what anyone else thinks would be better for them.

I'm gonna stop ranting now, I need to sleep soon .;P

--Gary

Barwick

I think this is either the study he was talking about or similar to it:

http://www.motorists.com/issues/speed/dornsife.html

Amagi82

The arguments for speed limits are all based on one singular premise: That no human beings are equipped with brains, or they are otherwise too incompetant to determine what they are capable of handling behind the wheel. Furthermore, this flawed presupposition implies that human beings will, en masse, see a sign telling them what speed should be used, and immediately alter their velocity to obey, thereby making the roads safe because everyone is the same and has the same abilities. This means that human beings are a) capable of reading a sign and altering velocity to embrace the wishes of the almighty sign, while at the same time b) not capable of rational thought. In addition, all speed limit laws also assume every single human has exactly the same mental and physical abilities, whether they be Michael Shumacher, or my aunt, the most dangerous woman behind a steering wheel on earth.

What it all comes down to is, do you have enough respect for humanity as a whole, to let them decide whats best for their life so you may in turn determine whats best for yours? If you can accept that other people are also capable of rational thought, there is hope for you. If not, you are destined to the same prison you place everyone else in. You may feel safe, but through the millenia, no man has ever been remembered for playing it safe. The desire for safety is a cowardly endeavor, it stands in the way of everything we were created for.

I can think for myself, make up my own mind, do whatever I desire, and so long as I do not hurt another man or woman, its none of your business. And unlike most people, I have enough courage to respect your rights to do the same.

Amagi82

I would like to add that I have no problem with speed "recommendations" in key areas (blind corner, off ramp, etc) That is useful and gives a driver in new territory foreknowledge of dangers ahead, so they can decide the appropriate reaction based on their driving and vehicle abilities.

Barwick

Raptor's last two posts... oh so spot on... and quite humorous as well.

Skylance

Hey,

Sorry its been so long since I replied. I was VERY busy the latter half of last week. I bet you thought you had gotten rid of me

Barwick - The point about your daughter (cute baby by the way) is that it would be a shame for her to not remember her daddy because of something that - in my opinion - is an unnecessary risk and totally avoidable. My point in short - Your driving may not immediately endanger anyone else, but your family will have to pay the price.
You are right about the government only being legally allowed to do so much. I simply don't believe that they overstep their legal boundaries by enforcing speed limits. Don't get me wrong, I myself would much rather see my hard earned tax dollars go to catching a serial murderer other than officers handing out speeding tickets (no offense badge988).

Bob_the_Normal - Your right about slower traffic should stay to the right. I read it somewhere on the internet - I don't remember where at - that Florida and another state are going to start enforcing "slower traffic keep right". If you don't move to the right as soon as possible after making a pass and people are trying to get around you, then you will get a ticket.

Raptor13x - You are right. We as humans are capable of thinking for ourselves. You make it sound as if the inventor of speed limits was attempting to restrict individual thought. I am sure that is not the case.

badge988

I didnt take offense because Im not a serial speeding ticket writer. You are right however in that we are human and responsable for our own just like the guy who decided to drink and drive. I didnt put the bottle in his hand and make him get drunk. He did that on his own.

Its not going to matter after the end of July anyway, Im leaving the department because Im tired of the bullshit politics and want to spend more time with my kids and less time bringing my job home with me. On or off duty cops are cops so why sould I have to make peoples lives miserable full time thanks to the Patriot Act?

When Im officially done I will post more of my war stories for you guys to enjoy!

988 for another week

Madrx7racer

cooooool.....you ever shot or saw any dead ppl? I have (the latter) but i heard cops get some days off after seeing dead ppl.......stories are cool...post them up

Amagi82

What people try to do and what actually happens are often two very different things. The inventer of speed limits most likely decided that "x" road was safe for him to travel on at "y" speed, so it would be safer if everybody went that same speed. This would be fine and good if we were all the same and drove the same vehicle. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

And then, over time, speed limits gradually changed from a man's opinion of what is safe, to a profit-making scheme. Its the same with anything, give a government institution the ability to do anything, and 99% of what results, is bad. Politicians are quick to point out the 1% that actually went right, and play around with statistical numbers to make more of what they do sound like its working. It doesnt take brilliance to determine that every single regulation, with time, becomes worse than the problem it was trying to prevent.

Most people become politicians with the intent of adding laws to combat some grievance they have with the world. They gather support to do something about "x" problem, and get elected, passing more and more laws, creating more and more complexity, and eroding more and more freedom. If one thing is a constant, its that people in power want more power, and the more power they have, the more enslaved we become, no matter how good their intentions are.

A perfect society is of course, impossible, as we are not perfect. There will always be problems, people will always die, there will always be crime, theres nothing you can do to put a stop to it. The more we focus on safety, the more dangerous and intrusive it becomes to live here.

Barwick

Ok, and people still are missing my point. Nowhere in there am I saying that I would drive recklessly. The only time I would be doing 160+ mph would be in a car fully capable of doing so. Not in some turbocharged Honda Civic with some aftermarket springs on it for "suspension". Now, if it was a fully built car (even a Civic) that was designed all around (aerodynamically, suspension, brakes, tires, etc...) made to handle those speeds, then I might do it. And then only in the ultra-rare wide-open straight highway with nobody on it for miles.

No sane person is going to endanger their own life, and let me tell you, speed limits are not going to save more lives than not having speed limits. Reference the study I linked to a page or two back.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Excellent article on speed limits (see thread page 12 for link).

I do really like the yellow turn speed signs. I always seem to be able to exceed all of them by the same amount. And I've seen an 18 wheeler traveling at exactly the speed of one - no more, no less. I'd say that's a good baseline. No car is going to handle worse than an 18 wheeler, yet since the sign is just a recommendation we can exceed it. Since the signs are consistent we know how much to exceed them by.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I'm putting off writing a lab report, so I read the whole speed limit article.
Here's a summary for those who don't want to spend the time; recommendations are made for optimal safety:

• (lots of info on how to make good speed limit signs)
• Slower isn't necessarily safer.
• Most people know how to drive safely without paying attention to speed limit signs, hence the recommendations below are relative to other drivers.
• City (<50mph): Drive no faster than 85% of cars.
• Highway W/ SOME TRAFFIC (>50mph): Drive no faster than 90% of cars.
• Road Hazards (at the very worst): Drive no faster than 67% of cars.
• Highway W/ MINIMAL, FREE FLOWING TRAFFIC (e.g., rural interstates): Safest speed is 12mph faster than the average (usually 75+12=87); up to 18mph faster than average is still safer than driving at the average speed.
• Always yield to faster cars, even if you are meeting/exceeding the speed limit. This is why low speed limits may sometimes increase accident rates: People a little over the speed limit think they are going fast, refuse to yield to faster car, faster car overtakes, overtaking increases chance of accidents.
• Be aware of road conditions: Signs "cry wolf", causing people to ignore the signs that are accurate & useful.

Disclaimer: I am not necessarily advocating breaking the law. I'm human, my summary might not match the article 100%, but I think it does. Use your own best judgement when driving.

SLOASFK

iTrader: (5)

1: best ressurection of the year. very interesting thread.
2: eric, where did you get those numbers or are they arbitrary numbers based on what you feel your experience has been?

Madrx7racer

I agree.................

I used to bitch all the time about the speed limits on Hwy. 17 but once i drove it in the rain I understood why they were there...................50 mph is wayyy to slow for daily driving in the sunshine but it's scary in the rain.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

93VRTouring: Again, those numbers are from the speed limit study someone posted. Page12 of this thread has the link. Those numbers are proven to be best for safe driving.

Here's the link again:
http://www.motorists.com/issues/speed/dornsife.html

KeloidJonesJr.

iTrader: (8)

GREAT revive.