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Old 07-25-04, 06:15 PM
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Welcome to SCCA now Go race that vette

How does the SCCA classify a COMPLETLY stock rx-7 in SS with vettes? Ive heard about this, but it just doesnt make sense.
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Old 07-25-04, 07:04 PM
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A few years ago the RX-7 was the hot car to have in SS. Then of course came the Z06. You can't bump the RX-7 down to AS because the Vette owners in that class would complain. So... We in FDs are stuck with this dilema for the time being. ASP is the same thing.
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Old 07-25-04, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by finky
A few years ago the RX-7 was the hot car to have in SS. Then of course came the Z06. You can't bump the RX-7 down to AS because the Vette owners in that class would complain. So... We in FDs are stuck with this dilema for the time being. ASP is the same thing.
What class does the s2000 run in? I think that would be a better match for a STOCK fd. I mean , I wasnt even gripping (street tires) i was practically drifting the car (touring on top of that), I mean I had great control (been driving the car for over a year now) but man does that rear end like to come out.

Whats wrong with running against stock vettes in AS? (what does AS stand for again?)
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Old 07-25-04, 07:39 PM
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s2000 are much slower. They would get wiped out by FD. specially at big open autocross courses.
As for the small tight courses, they suffer too, because having to switch 1-2nd gear.
The 2004 S2000 is in AS.
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Old 07-25-04, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by reza
s2000 are much slower. They would get wiped out by FD. specially at big open autocross courses.
As for the small tight courses, they suffer too, because having to switch 1-2nd gear.
The 2004 S2000 is in AS.
A STOCK s2000 vs a STOCK FD i dont think it would get wiped. I think it would be a hell of alot closer than what the FD is currently in.

What class are the FC and FB in?
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Old 07-25-04, 08:39 PM
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Here is a reason to stay in ASP
Beating old farts in .25M$ car.
But I am not there yet....getting close however....
Attached Thumbnails Welcome to SCCA now Go race that vette-scca-may15_0091.jpg  

Last edited by reza; 07-25-04 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 07-28-04, 12:08 PM
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All NA RX-7's are E-Stock and a moded FB I think goes to CSP
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Old 07-28-04, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by finky
A few years ago the RX-7 was the hot car to have in SS. Then of course came the Z06. You can't bump the RX-7 down to AS because the Vette owners in that class would complain. So... We in FDs are stuck with this dilema for the time being. ASP is the same thing.
Wow, that's the most unbiased explanation I've ever heard.

The truth is, the C5 started to dominate the SS class before the Z06 came out- right around 2000. The Z06 was just icing on the cake, but the FRC was winning before the Z06 emerged, even the 385HP model in 2001. The FD belongs in SS.

The FD is exceptionally capable of competing with the C5 in most cases. It's not until you become an extremely good driver will you come to find the FD has a difficult time competing. The truth is- the FD is probably an EASIER car to drive fast that the C5 for a few reasons:
1) It's considerably smaller which means the course is that much bigger
2) It doesn't have the low-end torque of the LS1 which makes it more "forgiving" of throttle mistakes. Throttle modulation is a HUGE concern for me.

Ask Damon how he does against the C5's- he'll probably agree with me here. It's 90% driver, 5% car, 5% tires.
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Old 07-28-04, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Umrswimr
Ask Damon how he does against the C5's- he'll probably agree with me here. It's 90% driver, 5% car, 5% tires.
It's 90% driver until you get to the creme de creme of the drivers. Once all the drivers are good your car must have the potential in it or you're going to lose.

The advantage the C5/Z06 has over me is contact patch size, low end torque and chassis springing. They have more acceleration potential than me from slow speeds and they have more grip to put it to use. I stay close when the courses are full of fast turns and transitions. When the courses have lots of tight corners I can't match the Vette's acceleration out of them because I have to build boost first and that takes time. I can match or exceed their outright cornering speed but it's the parts in between the corners where I lose time to them. You should have seen me at the Pro Solo a couple years ago. I'd beat the Z06 off the line and into the first corner nearly everytime. The course got tighter and slower the farther through it you went. You'd see the Z06 catch and pass me every time coming out of 2 key corners. I could win the first half of the course but I got beat to the finish line every time.

Not to take anything away from the Z06 drivers I compete with every other weekend but I have to drive the wheels off my car to beat Z06 guys who are poorer drivers than me. When I ride with them and see what their car can do they should be kicking my ***. If I was in a Z06 I know I'd be killing my FD times at least 75% of the time. Two of the Z06 drivers are at least as good (probably better) as I and I don't get close unless they screw up. Otherwise they put a second or more on me. I know it sounds conceited but I see poorer drivers in Z06's beat me all the time.

I don't fear the C5; I think FD vs. C5 is a great battle. FD vs. Z06 is not IMO. The Z06 horsepower and gearing makes it a very different car for autox when compared to C5.

umrswimr, as for power management I would pick small block Chevy grunt over sequential twin turbos everytime in an autox environment. Accelerating through corners or slaloms while the second turbo is kicking in takes some deft manuevers in the cockpit at times

Last edited by DamonB; 07-28-04 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 07-28-04, 06:57 PM
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Haha you think that's bad? Look at what class the turbo fc is in stock.
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Old 07-28-04, 07:32 PM
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If you want to be competitive at a national level in a FD RX-7 you just need to put the money into the car to build the car out under the allowances for the SM2 class. Not only will the properly built car give you a chance to win your class but you should also have a shot at the PAX championship as well (as long as the course isn't really small and tight, then PAX goes to the HS/GS cars).

From looking over the national tour times this past year you could make a strong case for the FD in AS but it could be the only folks driving the FD in SS aren't the top drivers and a top driver in a FD would have the potential to beat the AS times (in all the results I looked at no FD in SS would have even trophied in AS).

In either case Fatman you're putting the cart before the horse, until you can run competitive times (your stock FD should run within 1-3 seconds of the Z06s and have comparable times to the C4s) don't even worry about what class your car is in. Also if you aren't willing to spend the money for tires (Hoosier or Kuhmo) you don't really have a chance either. Even the Yoko A032R softs that I run are probably a second slower (but will last me probably 2x as long) on the events I run at.

Does that second really matter to me right now? No, I'm running in SM2 on a car with stock touring shocks and springs. I could run out and buy a suspension and make my times better but I feel like learning to make the stock suspension work will make me a much better driver. A lower and more stiff suspension can hide the fact that you aren't braking smooth, or you're braking too late, etc a lot more since the body roll and weight transfer will be limited more than it is with the stock. With the stock its very obvious when I don't set the car up right for a corner and I'm getting used to the feel, on better suspension that 'feel' is much less obvious and may be harder to learn.
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Old 07-28-04, 10:13 PM
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Fatman,

Since you are new to autocrossing, you should try to race in a novice class. That way you can fairly compare yourself to other drivers with similar experience. In your case, you may very well be able to beat a guy in a Z06, who is also a novice. At your level, its more about the driver than it is about the car.
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Old 07-29-04, 05:59 AM
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eh...my modded NA FC is CSP. Its really difficult to go against miatas
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Old 07-29-04, 07:50 AM
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Thanks, I knew it was my first time, I just thought it was crazy for a STOCK FD no mods what so ever to race a z06 but w.e. I still had a good time for the few minutes I was out there.
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Old 07-29-04, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TracyRX7
Does that second really matter to me right now? No, I'm running in SM2 on a car with stock touring shocks and springs.
I've been watching this and the other thread and I could write volumes (although Damon and others have been writing well, there is some misinformation but I think it has been addressed) but I'll just shoot a line or two from the peanut gallery since I'm primarily a track guy but I've dodged a good number of cones in the past few years in both the FD and my Miata.

Above all, in ANY motorsports, spend $$$ on the DRIVER. You will have dozens of cars in your life, seat time rules all mods. That's how my "pesky" little 1.8L Miata on pathetic Falken Azenis can chase down a Mallet Corvette uphill in the esses at VIR.

After seat time, I say that stock shocks in ANY used car is a HUGE mistake. I used to think "keep it stock, Mazda spent many engineering hours on suspension, you can't outsmart them". Putting shocks on my Miata made it 200% better and they are stock-class legal. It isn't the aftermarket part, it is the fact that the stock shocks are worn to $hit by the time you get the car and it doesn't make sense to spend $$$ on a stock shock when the aftermarket is usually cheaper.

Bang for buck, shocks are the BEST thing you can do to a used sports car along with tires and proper maintenance. I want to do some power mods on the FD, but I think my money is better spent on a set of wheels/tires (although since I'm doing schools, the logic is to run street tires until you are "running the clock") and a nice set of coilovers.

If you have dreams of winning nationals in SS, you need to go buy a Corvette (easy) or be the next autocrossing phenom if you want to win in your RX-7 (hard).
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Old 07-29-04, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatman0203
Thanks, I knew it was my first time, I just thought it was crazy for a STOCK FD no mods what so ever to race a z06 but w.e. I still had a good time for the few minutes I was out there.
Since you are a new driver, look for a regional street tire class, which pax'es you as SS. It sigificantly evens out the field. Most more experience drivers will run SS with R-compound tires, while developing drivers will typically stay on street tires in the Street tire class. The pax-ed street tire class is also a great way to judge your skill development against other drivers.

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Old 07-29-04, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RussinStk
Since you are a new driver, look for a regional street tire class, which pax'es you as SS. It sigificantly evens out the field. Most more experience drivers will run SS with R-compound tires, while developing drivers will typically stay on street tires in the Street tire class. The pax-ed street tire class is also a great way to judge your skill development against other drivers.

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They didnt have any tire classes, if you had sllicks and/or street tires you would still be in SS. There was a stock z06 and a z06 on slicks both ran in my same class. My bad the slicks Im talking about are the DOT ones that have those exacto knife lines carved into it.
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Old 07-29-04, 02:49 PM
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Another thing to keep in mind is that the numbers on the side of your car won't effect how well you drive. If you feel you're the under dog of the class, so be it. Just drive the wheels off of the thing. What really counts is how well you drive, not what class you're in.

I don't make an effort to keep track of the times of my competitors, I try to go fast and the times will take care of themselves. If mine are faster, I win. If not, I end up somewhere else. I've put together what I thought were great drives at the time and been no better than mid-pack. It can be disheartening but don't dwell on it. Always look forward to what you're going to do different next time.

I'm most disappointed not when I get beat, but when I blow it. I was gunning for first on my last run just recently and felt certain the first half of my run was better...until I overcooked it and had to back out to catch the car. 95% of that run was better than all the rest but that one mistake killed it. My class locally is a lot of fun because we all shoot for first place. If you're in third and only need a slight improvement to catch second, screw that! You go out there and get first or blow up trying. None of us drive for second.

Last edited by DamonB; 07-29-04 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 07-29-04, 02:56 PM
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Another minor problem is I cant even get into one at least once a month which I would enjoy for the lack of seat time. The next one isnt till September!!! Ahhhhh!!! LoL i need to start looking for private groups that do this.
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Old 07-29-04, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatman0203
i need to start looking for private groups that do this.
www.autocross.com will list everyone in your area.
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Old 07-29-04, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
www.autocross.com will list everyone in your area.
It has a few clubs missing from my Florida list. =/ weird.
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Old 07-29-04, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatman0203
It has a few clubs missing from my Florida list. =/ weird.
Then by all means tells those clubs to email the website so they can get listed!
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Old 07-29-04, 04:51 PM
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Fatman,

As you develop as a auto-xer, you will be suprised how you can beat over dog cars with less horse power. Don't worry about the Z06s. Within in time you will be able to beat your fair share of them.

I currently drive a BMW E30M3 rated only at 211 rwhp in Street Mod, and I can usually beat car with twice the hp on a regular basis. Auto-x is a much more skill sport then people realize. HP/torque is only worth while if you know how to get it to the ground, by good driving and setting the car up.

Actually, the reason I am on the forum is to obtain info for a 2nd gen turbo to develop into a ASP or possible BP car. At last years solo nationals, in BP the 89 RX7 national championship car was over 4 seconds faster than any corvette or other car. You have a good weapon, for local level competition. Once you get it setup and drive it closer to it's limit you will be surprised at the results.
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Old 07-29-04, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
Then by all means tells those clubs to email the website so they can get listed!
Will do.


Look what I found!!!

http://autox.carlc.com/er072504.htm
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Old 07-29-04, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Fatman0203
Will do.


Look what I found!!!

http://autox.carlc.com/er072504.htm
By the way I guess they still gave me a time for going out of course. And I did alot better my 2nd time around.
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