Race Car Tech Discuss anything related to road racing and auto X.

Tips on handling turns for grip racing

Old 01-23-03, 05:17 PM
  #1  
Hi Powr FD's
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: OKC
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Tips on handling turns for grip racing

I will be chasing down FWD turbo cars and on turns for fun, and I have to slow it down while hitting the turn, because any gas throws my rear end out. Do you guys just accelerate before the turn, cruise through it and then punch it after the apex?
HeatTreated is offline  
Old 01-23-03, 05:54 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Ranzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Memphis, Japan
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That could be caused by lots of different problems and most likely a combination of a few. First Check the alignment of all 4 of your wheels. If it is that bad your tires are probably in need up changing.

Your line is most likely off. Racing is not full accel on and full accel off there is many points of acceleration depending on the curve. For a Rx-7 I would say that slow in and Fast out is best.
Ranzo is offline  
Old 01-24-03, 01:51 AM
  #3  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Different situations call for different tactics. In high-speed transitions (like an offset or a chicane), I'm usually REAL fast in, hard on the brakes, and then easy on the throttle .... you know, the old adage about having a string attached to the steering wheel from the accelerator. On sweepers, I'm usually light on the brakes and a little early - trying to maintain as much speed up until my late apex, and then I mash the accelerator. (I'm probably just being a puss by not late braking on some of them ... ) On slaloms and consecutive offsets, it's all about position ... position first, speed second. The best racers always take the best lines.

I'd suggest the Watts book on Solo Racing. It's a good beginner book with enough helpful hints for everyone from novices to veterans.
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 01-24-03, 01:57 AM
  #4  
13B N/A POWA!
10 Year Member
 
KiyoKix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Everywhere, WRLD
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I personally believe the the phrase (more like scripture in the racing bible )..."Slow in Fast out" is the only way to drive. You can't speed up before you've slowed down and you can't slow down until you speed up. The 2 fall hand in hand (yep...that first part of the phrase proly didn't make sense but it's 4 am). Anyway don't treat the accelerator pedal like an on/off switch, it's basically analog just like a clutch so use it that way and you will get the full potential from it, it will take practice but nobody becomes the best from the start. Also analyze your lines (don't take everything at race speed...if possible drive or heck even walk the track like an autocross and learn the line before you just decide this IS the line) instead of just turning and accelerating.
KiyoKix is offline  
Old 01-24-03, 08:09 AM
  #5  
Rotary Enthusiast
10 Year Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: North Hollywood, Ca USA
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think a professional driving school would be in order, and exactly where are you "racing"?
tims is offline  
Old 01-24-03, 08:54 AM
  #6  
Hi Powr FD's
5 Year Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: OKC
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well one of my problems was too much tire pressure 38psi.
Autocross season hasnt started yet, but Im practicing in big lots and on/off ramps coming off the highway. Well I hit safely hit 40 mph on a big turn without losing grip so I think the tire psi was mostly the problem. Although breaking into a drift on a off ramp was thrilling
HeatTreated is offline  
Old 01-24-03, 08:12 PM
  #7  
mythical Unicorn
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Corner problems

As stated above, check your alignment. With stock tires and for racing you can do 1.4 front and rear negative camber, max caster, slight to out in front 1/32 - 1/4 in to in for the rear.

That along with driving will do it. Front tires will wear ok however the more toe in you go will grind down the back. Camber is not the big cause or burnining through a tire. If it were all the old volkswagon bugs would be replacing tires ever 1,000 miles or so. It is the toe in or out that will chew them up.

The back of our car wants to oversteer, so you must compensate with toe in.

Allan
Spank is offline  
Old 01-25-03, 05:49 AM
  #8  
Lives on the Forum
10 Year Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: IN
Posts: 6,131
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally posted by tims
I think a professional driving school would be in order, and exactly where are you "racing"?
Agreed. The original poster does not know how to turn his/her Rx7 at speed!? The easy thing to do is buy the Skip Barber Going Faster book. That will help immensely!
SleepR1 is offline  
Old 01-25-03, 08:07 AM
  #9  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
bradrx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: on track
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Set the rear thrust angle AND the rear toe at ZERO. The information about rear toe in was wrong, no offense.

Also, if you are driving on the street and without a lot of track experience (as in ANY), you will find FRONT toe OUT will make the car darty. I suggest you get the car a proper street alignment and take a driving school. I get students in all kinds of cars with horribly mis-aligned cars all the time. A well done (not your typical $29.95) alignment will work wonders along with some training.

Do it on a track.
bradrx7 is offline  
Old 01-26-03, 02:41 PM
  #10  
Rotary Enthusiast
5 Year Member
 
specRX7_22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
first of all.... oversteer is not drifting. ok anyways...

if your having an oversteer problem, try removing the rear sway bar. that will loosen up the rear and allow it to flex a little bit. the car will then tend to understeer a little bit, but you wont loose the rear.

bradrx7,
wouldnt toe IN also cause the car to dart?
specRX7_22 is offline  
Old 01-26-03, 03:58 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
foko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by tims
I think a professional driving school would be in order, and exactly where are you "racing"?
i second and third that!

and btw.....forgive my ignorance, but is there something other than "grip" racing? i thought this drifting thing was just for putting on a show. do people race on the track like that?

fabian
foko is offline  
Old 01-26-03, 04:01 PM
  #12  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
foko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by specRX7_22

......bradrx7,
wouldnt toe IN also cause the car to dart?
front toe out makes the car turn in quicker, but makes it feel "darty"
toe in makes it more straight line stable, but with a slower turn in.

fabian
foko is offline  
Old 01-26-03, 06:57 PM
  #13  
Senior Member
10 Year Member
 
foko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Los Gatos, CA
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by specRX7_22

......bradrx7,
wouldnt toe IN also cause the car to dart?
front toe out makes the car turn in quicker, but makes it feel "darty"
toe in makes it more straight line stable, but with a slower turn in.

fabian
foko is offline  
Old 01-27-03, 08:46 AM
  #14  
male stripper
10 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
jeremy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Posts: 3,131
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
toe in should do the same but i don't know of any reason that you would use toe in on the front. the dartiness comes from weight transfer and road irregularities causing the "loaded" tire to try and take the car its way instead of following a straight line.

as for grip racing, can you say we have played gran turismo too much. \

as for chasing down civics and neons in your fd, see the article on using the gas pedal, lol. objects in windshield are approaching faster then may appear.
jeremy is offline  
Old 01-27-03, 12:08 PM
  #15  
13B N/A POWA!
10 Year Member
 
KiyoKix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Everywhere, WRLD
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes there is a such thing as drift "racing" (I'm not counting rally racing...the originator ). I don't wanna sound like a rehash...but I seventh (ha...wonder why I 7eventh that ) the driving school comment. I would also try and make it to a track instead of practicing on on ramps (do the parking lots that you use have cones or are you just driving around???). I wouldn't take out the rear sway bar though, maybe change the stiffness of the 2 but NOT remove the bar altogether. Good luck...and BE SAFE DAMMIT! I say that in a nice way.
KiyoKix is offline  
Old 02-02-03, 08:01 AM
  #16  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philly, Pa.
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by KiyoKix
Yes there is a such thing as drift "racing"
You're talking about legal, sanctioned racing events on a tarmac surface where the winner is determined by the clock not on "judging"? Where can I see such a thing on TV or in person in the US?
MechE00 is offline  
Old 02-03-03, 06:41 PM
  #17  
Has been.. hangin' around
10 Year Member
 
Silkworm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Milpitas, CA
Posts: 2,618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Besides, Rally isn't necessarily the originator. Go look at films of old (50s and 60s) F1 cars, they drove that way, *** end all the way around the corner. Not sure how long Rally's been doing it, but this kind of driving is definitely not new.

It's also not fast.

PaulC
Silkworm is offline  
Old 02-03-03, 09:43 PM
  #18  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Texas
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
-Do you guys just accelerate before the turn, cruise through it and then punch it after the apex?

well you don't want to cruise through the turn. At bondurant's school, you learn all about trail braking. You break hard at the start (in a straight line) then ease off the brakes gradually until the apex. This helps the car stay turning by weighting the front wheels. After you are done turning the wheel (as you begin to unwind it) get on the gas.
ktmxxer87 is offline  
Old 02-04-03, 08:30 PM
  #19  
Full Member
10 Year Member
 
Lazy-Rx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Houston, Tx
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
how much toe out would you guys suggest for the front?
Lazy-Rx7 is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 08:27 AM
  #20  
male stripper
10 Year Member
iTrader: (1)
 
jeremy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: St Petersburg, FL
Posts: 3,131
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
start with 1/8" overall toe out. that should help turn in and tracking w/o wearing the crap out of your tires.

rally has been doing it at least as long and in rally, it is the fastest. since you can't practice and optimize your entry speed and line, you must keep the car loose and able to tighten the line if you come in to hot. that and on loose surfaces, finding the optimal level of grip is a wee bit harder.
jeremy is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 09:08 AM
  #21  
13B N/A POWA!
10 Year Member
 
KiyoKix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Everywhere, WRLD
Posts: 1,013
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
True, old F1 cars used to do that also, but rally is much more focused on it. It's also not the quickest way when on a tarmac surface...BUT on gravel that can be a very different story. It all depends on the surface and the car really. I'm much more of a grip type of driver, but I do LOVE rally racing and watching drift contests.

No I don't know of anywhere you can watch drift contests (judged, I'm not sure if there are any that are run by the clock...but don't doubt it), but it seems to be getting a little more popular in the US so it'll happen soon enough.
KiyoKix is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 10:07 AM
  #22  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
bradrx7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: on track
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
<rant> That drifting stuff is bullshit. It combines a burnout 'contest' with road racing to what end? Wheel spinning, power-on oversteer is slow. Cut the crap, the get power down and haul ***. That is a skill set worth having. </rant>

The old days of F1 ( I am old enough to remember and actually went to F1 races in the 70s) had cars showing oversteer due to tire limitations and very aggressive driving. Watching Ronnie Peterson or Keke Rosberg pitching and catching their cars was neat, but hey were almost always out qualified by more 'tidy' drivers. In even older days (Clark, Gurney, et al), the cars ran slight oversteer because it was faster on the treaded Dunlop and Avon bias ply tires of the tire. An understeering car in those days was VERY slow.
bradrx7 is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 02:01 PM
  #23  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wheel spinning, power-on oversteer is slow. Cut the crap, the get power down and haul ***. That is a skill set worth having.
That's an understatement. Drifting around any corner is NOT the fast way through a course. And it's also hard to replicate consistently, while not to mention unsafe. Check out this idiot on a road course "hot-*******" it around.

http://kouki.2y.net:8080/nekoball/ha.../lancer250.wmv

I like how at the end he obviously kept his foot in it while trying to save the car AFTER the wheels got off course. Duh ...

But, drift competition looks like it does require some significant amount of skill. Check these puppies out:

http://www.rfic2003.org/Kabe_Medium_01.mov

http://www.rfic2003.org/Kabe_Medium_02.mov
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 02:53 PM
  #24  
Full Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Philly, Pa.
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by KiyoKix
No I don't know of anywhere you can watch drift contests (judged, I'm not sure if there are any that are run by the clock...but don't doubt it), but it seems to be getting a little more popular in the US so it'll happen soon enough.
My confusion was caused by your original statement using the term drift "racing" and not drift "competitions"... I wouldn't use the term "racing" to describe figure skating or ice dancing. :p

I enjoy drifting on a blown autocross run or in the winter series with ice in the hairpin, and I enjoy watching people drift, and I think it certainly requires skill to be done well, but I wouldn't consider it "racing".

As for the lancer driver, he seemed to be mostly in control for much of what he was doing.. (though he was goofing around a bit close to that lotus, imo) he just seemed to early apex on that last one.. and he wasn't even drifting that turn! :p

Anyone watch Speed's coverage of WRC Monte Carlo? Nicki Grist did a comparison b/n Loeb and Grunholm. For most turns, Loeb was not drifting, but Grunholm was. Grunholm was faster on snow/ice. Loeb was faster on tarmac clear tarmac.
MechE00 is offline  
Old 02-05-03, 02:58 PM
  #25  
Junior Member
10 Year Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by jeremy
start with 1/8" overall toe out. that should help turn in and tracking w/o wearing the crap out of your tires.
I would recommend against using any toe out on a street-driven car. As earlier posters mentioned, toe out will make your car darty especially on uneven roads. The factory recommends slight toe-in (~1/16") which makes the car more stable and less darty. On the track, a little toe out (~1/16") will improve turn-in at the expense of stability.
Dave
DaveMc is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Tips on handling turns for grip racing


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: