TII brake upgrade options (BIG BRAKES)
It is time for bigger brakes for my TII race car. I am looking preferably for a kit that has already been engineered, as opposed to fabricating my own set-up, or having someone fab a kit and being the guinea pig . I beleive N-Tech Engineering had some Alcon set-ups, but I cannot seem to access their web page, I keep getting a re-direct... I know Endless has several options, but I do not know of any racers using them. I have checked Stop Tech, Brembo, and AP, and I cannot find anything that has been engineered for the application. I run 16" wheels, but I can accomodate a ~13-1/4 rotor, as the wheels fit over my 97 Supra brakes(except for wheel pad height, which I can solve) Thanks in advance, Carl
|
Keep in mind I know nothing about TII's...
I know the front calipers of the FD and TII are the same. Does that mean the master cylinder bore is the same as well? If it is then you could use parts from an FD big brake kit (for the fronts at least) and perhaps need nothing more than custom hats to make the rotors fit? |
I did no realize that Damon, as far as a Master cylinder, I can change that. I was contemplating Supra, or Viper fronts, but I really want a kit i possible. I think I will likely need a larger master cylinder, and I would like to do the rears at the same time. Eventually I will buy a good properly prepped EP shell, and transfer everything off my car onto it. The only thing I'd need to do is the rear body work. My car is simply not going to get down below~2600lbs as it sits. :( Carl
|
With an FD big brake kit, besides definately needing to change the rotor hat which is quite simple, you may also need to fabricate different brackets for a new caliper.
Endless, Wilwood and other high dollar kits for FD's are available obviously, but if you're going to spend any amount of serious money, you may as well go with the best...AP or Brembo. Corksport has new upgraded (larger diameter) rotors for the rear of the FC which work with the stock rear caliper. In the same link but down the page some, I'm sure you are already aware of the AP big bucks kit for the FC. They also offer it with 14" rotors and/or 6-pot calipers. You're best option for obtaining those brakes is to go through Brits in Sonoma and cut out the middle man (Corksport). Brits is no longer at the track but down the road some. http://corksport.com/store/category/...rx-Brakes.html http://www.britsinc.com/ Another option is to go with the two-piece rotors from AWR. This would be your cheapest alternative and is what I am using currently. The rotors are only minimally larger but use much better design over stock or other aftermarket replacement rotors. They still use the stock calipers, font and rear. http://www.awrracing.com/pages/rx/rxbrakes.html Replacing the stock master cylinder with one from a 626 is a simple swap. The 626 mc has a larger bore to compensate for the increased volume needed from larger calipers. Also, a proprtioning valve will most likely be needed. http://www.tiltonracing.com/content....ist2&id=36&m=b
Originally Posted by Carl Byck
My car is simply not going to get down below~2600lbs as it sits. :(
|
what are hats??? i like this idea??? but give me a more direct term lol
TwEaK |
Hats are the centers of the disc, generally aluminum to save weight vs a full cast iron rotor. I will look at AP most likely, and piece them together, the calipers are ~500.00-700.00 each, the Rotors will be ~250 for the rotors, plus custom hats(spec in known to AP). We'll probably make the brackets unless someone like KVR, or N-Tech will sell parts. I know there are off the shelf kits for Alcon, and AP, but they are hard to source for a decent price, six pots are ~4500, and ~2600.00 for the four pots. I will also see if I can make Supra fronts work, they are relatively easy to come by, and clear my wheels. IIRC they are a little over 13.2 inches in diameter.
Still looking for folks with real track experience. Problem is the EP, and most GT cars are ~2200lbs, and under 300hp I am 2900, and 500hp... Carl |
That's hot.
|
Just grazing by here.. havent been here in months. Been kinda busy...
Ntech I do not think exists anymore. I know Nick thumbed his nose at the whole RX community a while back... year or two? Bought a 350Z and deemed it the NTECH car. And around that time he changed the name of ntech to something else. Too much baggage on that name I guess. Anyhow.. I dont think he is doing any re-badging of other peoples products anymore. And NO he never made any of the things himself. Just got it from others and put a N-Tech sticker on it. Big laughs about that around central Florida. Good guy.. but would simply buy the products from elsewhere. Scott |
I know of a cheaper option for you. Precision Brakes Company (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/) makes a wilwood kit for the FC (front only) that has 325mm x 22mm (12.8" x 0.87") 2 piece rotors (option of plain, slotted, drilled, drilled and slotted), 4 piston Dynalite calipers, SS lines, pads, brakets, and hardware. They are $1149 for the kit. They list brake kits for hundreds of cars, so who knows how well engineered they are. They are also a Wilwood dealer, so you may be able to get them to change the kit around a bit to have different calipers (like larger 6 pots maybe) and maybe even larger, thicker rotors.
I had the N-tech site bookmarked, and it worked last week, but I get a redirect now too, so they may be out of business, or the domain subscription may just have expired. |
|
Those are very nice, except K2RD went out of business a few years ago.
I think you can probably make your own kit from Wilwood components too, they also sell rotors and hats, and if you know the offset you want you can get some off the shelf components and assemble your own kit. If you can get the right rotors then the only things that may cause problems should be the lines and the caliper mounting brakets. |
Originally Posted by Black91n/a
I know of a cheaper option for you. Precision Brakes Company (http://www.precisionbrakescompany.com/) makes a wilwood kit for the FC (front only) that has 325mm x 22mm (12.8" x 0.87") 2 piece rotors (option of plain, slotted, drilled, drilled and slotted), 4 piston Dynalite calipers, SS lines, pads, brakets, and hardware. They are $1149 for the kit. They list brake kits for hundreds of cars, so who knows how well engineered they are. They are also a Wilwood dealer, so you may be able to get them to change the kit around a bit to have different calipers (like larger 6 pots maybe) and maybe even larger, thicker rotors.
I had the N-tech site bookmarked, and it worked last week, but I get a redirect now too, so they may be out of business, or the domain subscription may just have expired. |
I see now that they mention on the link to the PDF of the catalogue that the prices have changed, as of now the PDF they have on their site lists the price as $1149.
|
Thanks guys, keep it coming. Anyone have the Wilwood part numbers, and caliper height for the 6 pot set-up? I know AP also makes one, so in time I'll get it figured out. Carl
|
a 929 master cylinder is a direct bolt in IIRC...
ilike2eatricers used the 929 master on his TII I think.... |
Carl,
I have the K2RD 6 piston Wilwood billet superlite 6 caliper kit with 12" rotors(could be larger). Only part which is not off the shelf is the adapter from the OEM mazda mount to the 5.25" wilwood mount. This is made from a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate with the two sets of holes drilled at the appropriate spots. This is very easy to make or have made. only need a few simple measurements. Hat is from wilwood and so is rotor. Some of the kits I have seen are built mainly for street looks and do not increase clamping force substantially. Its all about the piston size. I had to abandon the stock master cylinder though as it was very touchy and would lock easily. I could not find a m/c with the correct bore that would work with the mazda brake booster, so I had to switch to a manual brake setup. this is a simpler project than it apprears. I did not know that Paul at K2Rd was out of business as this setup works well on my car. Only had to swap out some warped rotors(my fault) in more than 3 years of racing. yes, still on the original pads. |
Thanks Tim. I gather the Wilwood caliper height is similar to the OEM 4 piston? I wonder if I could go to a deeper hat(and offset bracket), moving the assembly inboard to allow a larger caliper? Do you think the calipers you have coupled with a larger rotor would be sufficient for my car? Are the Wilwood part numbers on your parts, or do you know them? This way I could replicate the kit. What made the aftermarket MC incompatable with the stock booster? There are AP kits built on the same premise as the K2RD set-up, thoughts? I wonder if my larger slicks would be sufficient to prevent the lock-up you encountered? I was going to use the DPI/Sierra recirculator, and antilock rear brake delay system as well.
Thanks, Carl |
paul also had some dual master brackets made, that bolt to the fc firewall and hold 2 willwood masters. i know he's got a bunch of those. if you bug me about it, i know he's got the part numbers and drawings and stuff.
|
Originally Posted by Carl Byck
It is time for bigger brakes for my TII race car. I am looking preferably for a kit that has already been engineered, as opposed to fabricating my own set-up, or having someone fab a kit and being the guinea pig . I beleive N-Tech Engineering had some Alcon set-ups, but I cannot seem to access their web page, I keep getting a re-direct... I know Endless has several options, but I do not know of any racers using them. I have checked Stop Tech, Brembo, and AP, and I cannot find anything that has been engineered for the application. I run 16" wheels, but I can accomodate a ~13-1/4 rotor, as the wheels fit over my 97 Supra brakes(except for wheel pad height, which I can solve) Thanks in advance, Carl
-Bern |
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
paul also had some dual master brackets made, that bolt to the fc firewall and hold 2 willwood masters. i know he's got a bunch of those. if you bug me about it, i know he's got the part numbers and drawings and stuff.
Bern, I have not had any failures, but when I come off the track after ten minutes the brakes are smoking. I am seeing front straight speeds at Thunderhill in excess of 135mph(lifting two thirds of the way down the straight), and braking from 120mph to 40 at T13, I feel the brakes are up to three or four 9/10th laps, after that I do not know. I am running AWR ducts and Carbotech XP10 pads with Motul 600 fluid. Without the ducting I would boil fresh motul 600 in two hot laps. I think the recirculator, and rear brake delay will help alot, but not enough for me to be comfortable at WOT all the way down to T1, T10, and T13. In short they are fine to turn two maybe three laps flat out, but not the 15 plus laps I would see in a race. There are too many places were I shold be braking later. I can brake far later in my RA1 tired Supra than I can in my slick tired RX7...... So let's keep the info coming, someone must have the AP specs, and the Alcons. I wonder if Paul calculated how much more piston area each set-up offered, or if it was mainly price driven? Also what is the barrier to using a single MC designed for the lager brakes? Thanks, Carl |
A long time freind of my dad's races a BMW 2002 in SCCA GT3 and SPU. He thought he had good breaks untill he upgraded to larger, much thicker front rotors and Wilwood calipers, along with new, different master cylinders, and he said that it made a world of difference, and that he was much more confident about the breaks and could break later. In a practice after the swap he was on par with his personal best at that particular track when he had an unfortunate crash, and that was only on his 9th lap (IIRC). So if he'd kept going he'd likely have gone even faster.
Here's a link to a site with a pic and breif description of the car. He's Jeff Roberts, the top car on the page, it's very fast, with lots of trick parts. I definetely enjoy going to the races and helping out with it. http://www.zeebuck.com/02bc/memgallery.html 500hp generates a lot of speed which needs to be turned into heat by the breaks, and that's a lot of heat. Even if you're not totally cooking the brakes, bigger ones can help keep pad life reasonable and can allow pads to be run that don't destroy rotors. Besides, it's best to have full confidence in your setup, as it'll allow you to commit more fully under breaking and that'll drop lap times. The only rear set I've ever seen for the FC is the corksport one. I suppose you could do a custom setup back there too, and it'd be easier than a rear set up would be normally because it's a race car and doesn't need a parking brake. For master cylinders, running a single you're usually limited by the piston size and stroke, making it hard to push enough fluid to satisfy the needs of larger calipers. As you go to larger calipers they usually have more piston area, so require more fluid displacement. For a dual system you can use smaller MC's and still have more fluid displacement than a large single, and you can use a balance bar, enabling a better tuning of brake bias. The specs of the AP and Wilwood calipers are available on their websites, but I didn't see specs anywhere on the Alcon site if they are there. |
Carl,
I made aluminum brackets for Rx-Ben to fit a Stoptech 13" rotor and big red calipers for an Integra Type R, onto his FC. Besides the custom brackets, the only other machining was making the center hole (hub register) of the rotor hat larger to fit the FC front hub. The Stoptechs are awesome kits and the fitment was pretty damn nice. I think the ITR kit is under $1800 and the machine work is cheap enough, I could make you brackets for $100 if you want to go that route. I also found Precision Brakes and theyre stuff looks great, you might want a larger caliper but their FC kit as-is might be fine because of the rotor being so much larger. but, for the cost, the AWR 2-piece rotors look like a very nice part, since the cooling vanes are much better than oem Mazda rotors. |
Someone in here must know what the I.D. of the stock rotors are front and rear. Please help keep my lazy ass on the computer searching for brake components and not in the garage removing and measuring.
Thanks, Matt |
To some up, ~2k is about what I'd like to spend, maybe 500 more, and some larger rear rotors with either stock calipers, or some reasonabe four piston set-up(figuring 3500 front, and rear including a new dual MC). I want to be sure the fronts, and rears are well matched, and that the MC is up to the task. Owen, you said Big red, do you mean StopTechs, or Porsche? As I said earlier I have 16" wheels, but a little over 15" inside. J9, or Tim, can you get the Wilwood part #s for the six piston setup? I have a hub, a stock disc, a stock caliper, and a Supra front rotor sitting here, I just need to do the meauring. Anyone have a link to a good worksheet for measuring your set-up? Thanks, Carl
|
heh heh, yeah big reds, theyre big and theyre red ;)
yes the Stoptech calipers. Ben has them under a 17" CCW but I think they might fit under a high clearance 16" race wheel... maybe... here's a pic: http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy01.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy26.jpg the nice part about the Stoptech ITR setup is that it was designed for a similar brake setup as the FC, with the MC size and bore between the two chassis very close in specs. |
tinner, did you want the center bore diameter or the size of the rotor hat inner diameter?
I have a set of new front rotors sitting here and can get you those measurements pretty easily. |
On the wilwood and AP sites they have to scale cross section drawings of the calipers, so you can make a cross sectional scale drawing of the rotor and caliper arrangement to check wheel and hub clearance. All you have to do is print it to scale and then attach it to some cardboard and hold it up againt the wheel and the hub to see if it'll fit. You could do this with a number of different rotor offsets and sizes, along with different calipers to get the absolute biggest size possible.
|
Originally Posted by owen is fat
tinner, did you want the center bore diameter or the size of the rotor hat inner diameter?
I have a set of new front rotors sitting here and can get you those measurements pretty easily. Both would be great, thanks! |
Originally Posted by Carl Byck
Bern, I have not had any failures, but when I come off the track after ten minutes the brakes are smoking. I am seeing front straight speeds at Thunderhill in excess of 135mph (lifting two thirds of the way down the straight), and braking from 120mph to 40 at T13, I feel the brakes are up to three or four 9/10th laps, after that I do not know. I am running AWR ducts and Carbotech XP10 pads with Motul 600 fluid. Without the ducting I would boil fresh motul 600 in two hot laps. I think the recirculator, and rear brake delay will help alot, but not enough for me to be comfortable at WOT all the way down to T1, T10, and T13. In short they are fine to turn two maybe three laps flat out, but not the 15 plus laps I would see in a race. There are too many places were I should be braking later. I can brake far later in my RA1 tired Supra than I can in my slick tired RX7......
-Bern |
Originally Posted by owen is fat
heh heh, yeah big reds, theyre big and theyre red ;)
yes the Stoptech calipers. Ben has them under a 17" CCW but I think they might fit under a high clearance 16" race wheel... maybe... here's a pic: http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy01.jpg http://homepage.mac.com/owen_the_soy...m/whammy26.jpg the nice part about the Stoptech ITR setup is that it was designed for a similar brake setup as the FC, with the MC size and bore between the two chassis very close in specs. |
Carl,
I believe the there is only one of two part numbers for the Billet six piston Wilwoods. rotors can be interchanged. Caliper could be relocated, but a flat piece of steel with four holes in it is alot easier to make. the whole setup should only be $1000 to $1200. I think Paul charged me like $1400. I have not had any problems and the performance is phenomenal. I am going to try to make the enduro at Sears Point in September(or maybe october) you could try it for yourself if you want. I'll check for the part numbers this week. lots of options but bore sizes are the same. Calipers http://www.wilwood.com/Products/001-...-SL6/index.asp Hats http://www.wilwood.com/Products/003-...GTSF/index.asp rotors http://www.wilwood.com/Products/002-...2-GT/index.asp |
Tim, I think it is a no brainer to duplicate your set-up, based on the caliper drawings I think I can accomodate up to a 13" rotor. I gather the links you provided are to the specific part families? How far did you go in your efforts to find a master cylinder(or dual) that would be compatible with the OEM booster? Is it simply a matter of custom plumbing, mounting, or what was the problem? I assume Wilwood can identify the optimum bore, and stroke on the MC for a particular set-up. I want to get this done sooner rather than later, so whatever help you can give me is much appreciated by me, and I am sure the whole community. I guess the only other info I would need is the thickness of the adapter plate.
Can someone let me know what the OEM MC bore, and stroke are? I will get recomendations from Wilwood on rotor type, you mentioned the rotors could be larger than what you got, I assume you did not get the 13s. If you PM me a good time to call, I can check in on the brakes, and talk with you about the ECU as well. Thanks, Carl |
Carl,
I bought the kit from Paul at K2RD and he developed it so you could use it on a stock FC, so it had to clear the stock wheels. The chart from Wilwood should give the max rotor diameter. the MC problem was that with the power booster you need a larger diameter MC. There were not alot of options to replace the original. the 929 and 3rd gen are slightly larger, but since these cars were not mass production models the cost is high just to test. I felt it was easier to convert to the manual brakes. I used the kit with the OEM MC and it worked fine but with heavy or quick pressure the tires would lock up easily. basicly you could operate the brakes with your big toe and almost no pressure. the problem is tires are expensive and a couple flat spotted tires will buy that manual brake conversion. There really is no perfect MC size. with the booster you can use the larger MC as the engine helps to push the pedal. with the manual brake setup I use a 3/4" bore for the front and a 15/16" for the rear, but I have reversed this with ggod results as well. smaller diameter=less pressure to operate the brakes and more pedal travel, larger diameter=more pressure and less travel. If I was to make this "kit" from scratch I would make an adapter from plywood and washers to get the spacing right then make it from aluminum or steel, depending on thickness. An eyeball measurement of mine looks to be around 1/2". if your good with geometry and a tape measure you could do it all on paper. call me anytime after 4pm I'll PM you the number |
Carl,
I finally sat down and came up with the wilwood part numbers for the setup on my car. there are alot of options but this is what I am using and it works great. Part numbers: Calipers: Billet superlite 6: 120-5960-RS and 120-5961-RS Mounting Hat: 170-0176 plus mounting bolt kit 230-0150 Rotor: HD fixed rotor 12.19" dia x 1.25" thick: 160-3872 This setup will then need the adapter(commonly called a "dog Bone"). again I would use some plywood or thick balsa wood to make a pattern then have it made from aluminum or steel. I thought some other people here might want the info so I thought I would add it to this original post. good luck |
Could you double check the part # for the rotor hats... those show to be a 5x4.75 bolt patern?
Thanks Aaron |
Also carl, tims... have you given thoughts to pad choice?
|
sorry about that I got the bolt pattern wrong in the conversion. 170-0635 rotor would work fine, and has the correct bolt pattern. I currently use the Polymatrix B brake pad, but there are many different choices depending on usage.
|
Project Mu?
|
great info tim, thanks for sharing!
|
I also noticed that Greddy sells a GREX brake kit for the FC, but it says that it's for the rear. I wouldn't understand why you would ONLY sell a 330mm 4-piston kit for the rear, though. I'm interested in what you end up running, as I'll be going from 160 to 300 to hopefully eventually 400+hp on my track-driven FC
http://greddy.com/prod_brakes.htm |
/\/\/\ thats probably just a misprint... theyre more likely a front kit.
|
1 Attachment(s)
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=171987&stc=1
Originally Posted by RX-Heven
Another option is to go with the two-piece rotors from AWR. This would be your cheapest alternative and is what I am using currently. The rotors are only minimally larger but use much better design over stock or other aftermarket replacement rotors. They still use the stock calipers, font and rear.
http://www.awrracing.com/pages/rx/rxbrakes.html Does the caliper need to be spaced out more or does it still use stock mounting? How much better does it cool and how do you like it? Thanks, Brad |
The AWR brake setup is for an E-production car, and the rules make you use the same as stock brakes. So the rotors are stock diameter and maybe slightly thicker and work with the OEM calipers which also must be used per the rules of EP. It really would not be considered a big brake kit. It was mainly developed to be a lighter alternative to the stock rotors
|
Tim, turns out, I had a bad ECU, AND a cracked rear iron (1.7 bar of boost road racing....) Anyway, I sent your E6K to Haltech and had it completely upgraded to all new software, chip set etc. I will be returning it shortly. Turns out I did not make the race after re-wiring the whole car with BDC, car fired up and ran well, but an invisible crack in the iron ended our day. I actually blew it up on the track last year, but the crack was so small that you had to get the engine up to ~180 before it leaked. @100 psi @ 150* it did not leak... Oh well, time for a fresh port, big brakes, lighten the car, Aquamist, etc. We have the aquamist pretty much done, and wired to the haltech, so it should be P&P when I get the motor back from BDC. Later, Carl
|
Originally Posted by DriveFast7
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/attach...d=171987&stc=1
Do you know how much larger that stock, and we're talking larger diameter not thickness, right? Does the caliper need to be spaced out more or does it still use stock mounting? How much better does it cool and how do you like it? Thanks, Brad The fronts do require some machining to the hub and rotor hat to fit. The rears require a bit of grinding on the hub to clear the hat. No modifications to the front or rear calipers is necassary. The brakes worked great this past weekend. I have new Hoosier S04's 285/30/18 up front and 335/30/18 in the rear on a 3200+ lb fc vert running ~400 rwhp. No fade all weekend. Running blues out back with HT-10's in the front with Motul 600 fluid. Pad choice along with adequate cooling is everything. |
Ok I hate to be thread diggin but I have some questions. I'm currently in the middle of prepping my car for time attack/drift/auto-x and some light to moderate highway style racing. I'm swapping in a powerful LS1 engine w/ T-56 six speed and will be making upwards of 550rwhp. The car should weigh in around 2400-2600 when done.
My questions are as follows. The car is an '86 GXL so that means no TII special anything for me, but I'm swapping in a TII rear end. Can I just take all the TII stock suspension and bolt it up to my GXL? I want to be able to use the aftermarket resources for the TII and I figured by swapping in everything TII suspension/brakes wise that I could then upgrade to the aftermarket TII stuff. Mainly the stuff in question is the Corksport rear upgrade and the AP Racing 6-Pot Front or Endless 6-Pot front. I would also like to upgrade to dual MCs. So if anyone could point me in the right direction as to where to go with this it would be greatly appreciated. |
the body shells are the same so all the OEM Mazda parts are interchangeable. manual brake with dual master cylinders is a custom setup and will need to be fabricated. not a hard job for even an amatuer fabricator/welder.
|
As amazing as this sounds, your GSL runs the same suspension and brakes as a Turbo II model.
The Turbo II model is basically a GXL model with a turbo engine in it. BTW, some seller is selling a 13.0" Rotora BBK on eBay starting bid at $1,500... -Ted |
yea I saw that. Was gona buy it but can't seem to find part numbers for pads for the BBK because rotora doesn't offer that kit anymore.
So my GXL is the same as the TII minus the engine eh? Sweet! That means BBK from AP and Corksport here I come. Now does anyone have any pictures of a Dual MC setup on an FC and what actually needs to be done for this to work properly. I mean is it an actual MC for each end of the car? I want to learn as much as possible about this. |
Ok now I'm at a dilema. I'm looking at picking up the Corksport rear and the KVR AP Racing front kit within the next few days. I just can't seem to justify another $2000 for 6pots over 4pots. I mean is it really worth that much more cash for the 6pots?
|
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:43 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands