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Suspension Suggestions

Old 11-19-06, 10:51 PM
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Question Suspension Suggestions

Looking to upgrade my ITS car to a newer suspension since mine is showing major age. I currently have a Koni setup that I am fairly happy with. I am looking at three different systems. First, the whole "kit" that mazdamotorsports sells, has all the shocks, springs, plates, mounts, sway bars, ect and is $2,000. Second is the JIC Magic FLT-A2 setup, some say this is decent but have never seen any in person. Last and most unlikely is the Tein stuff. Anyone have any suggestions or input on performance, longevity, and quality. Thanks!!!
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Old 11-19-06, 11:32 PM
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I have heard nothing good about the Tien or JIC stuff FOR ROAD RACING. Not that they are bad but a total lack of support in the states make them a non-choice for me. Look around the pits and see if anybody else is using them? Buddy of mine tried them on his Miata and ended up **** canning them and buying Penskes. The Koni's are good but they overheat quick and are not adjustable. The problem is that there is nothing between what you are looking at and a $5k a set of real race shocks like a JRZ, Penske, Oline or Dynamic
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Old 11-19-06, 11:57 PM
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Thanks...thats what I was begining to realize. Drastic price difference and while I am back in school, I am focusing more on the club scene. Thanks for your advice, well spoken!
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Old 11-20-06, 12:37 AM
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JIC and Teing DO have stateside support including rebuilding and revalving services. But for ITS I'd say the Advance Design shocks by Ground Control are the way to go, aluminium bodies, titanium internals, double adjustable, and affordable (as these things go anyway). They're definetely cheaper than going with some custom JRZ, Dynamic, Koni 2812, or whatever other high end systems. IIRC they're about $2400. The Mazdaspeed setup is pretty good, or so I've heard, but the shocks aren't adjustable, so if the tracks you run at are very different, or if you want to try out different spring rates then you need to have more than one set of shocks.

BTW I don't think it's fair to compare sub $2000 JIC's and Tein's to $5k and up top of the line stuff like Penske's, of course they're better, for the price they'd better be.
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Old 11-20-06, 06:19 AM
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Sorry I didn't mean to compare the tien or JIC to the high end stuff. I have a customer that has the tiens on his Evo and it is awsome. Point was that there is a huge $ gap between the Koni yellows and a JRZ. I had the GC'c also but that was back in 98-99. The had some quality control problems then and I havn't used them since. I have been told that they are better now.
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Old 11-20-06, 02:18 PM
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Anyone else have any experience with the Mazda setup?
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Old 11-20-06, 07:30 PM
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was just looking at the ole mazdamotorsports site and they describe this as an adjustable shock set up....I thought they wernt, am I missing something here?

K-STG2-91-RX71 S SUSPENSION KIT, STAGE 2 1 2ND GEN RX-7 ALL 1986-91 $2,040.71

Notes: IT SUSPENSION KIT. Includes Camber/Caster Kit (0000-04-7205-AC), Front Coil Over Strut Kit (0000-04-7201-AC), Koni Adjustable Front Strut Cartridges (2)(0000-04-7211-KN), Koni Adjustable Rear Shocks (2)(0000-04-7214-KN), Rear Shock Mounting Kit (0000-04-7206-DP), Rear Shock Mounting Studs (2)(0000-04-7214-AA), Rear Camber Link (0000-04-7421), Eibach ERS 7' Front Springs (400lbs) and 10' Rear Springs (275lbs), Eibach Sway Bar Kit (0000-04-7302-EB).
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Old 11-20-06, 08:35 PM
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I remembered (wrong) that it came with race valved Bilsteins, which are good shocks, but aren't adjustable. The Konis are the best of the off the shelf adjustable shocks, but have their drawbacks. Many have reported shock fade, where the damping falls off towards the end of the race due to the shocks heating up due to friction (of the parts on each other, and the fluid through the piston). They also lack the ability to deal with high spring rates without a revalve. The 400/275 rates are supposedly fine, but that's getting close to the limit on them.

There was a long post from a guy on the IT forum about his change from Konis to race valved Bilsteins and he said the comparison was night and day, the Bilsteins were much better. I've read a similiar story from a Miata autocrosser who dropped about 2 seconds on the competition with the same switch from Konis to race valved Bilsteins. Good shocks are worth the extra $$, both in terms of feel and lap times.

The AD's are a race shock, the Konis are a street shock, so there's a world of difference in the performance. The AD's are also lighter and are shorter, so are better suited to run at race height. If I were building an ITS car now, I'd get the AD's, there's really nothing else out there for the price that can compare (that I'm aware of anyway).
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Old 11-28-06, 12:38 AM
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Thumbs up Happy With????

Originally Posted by bean13
Looking to upgrade my ITS car to a newer suspension since mine is showing major age. I currently have a Koni setup that I am fairly happy with. I am looking at three different systems. First, the whole "kit" that mazdamotorsports sells, has all the shocks, springs, plates, mounts, sway bars, ect and is $2,000. Second is the JIC Magic FLT-A2 setup, some say this is decent but have never seen any in person. Last and most unlikely is the Tein stuff. Anyone have any suggestions or input on performance, longevity, and quality. Thanks!!!
If you’re happy with it you must be running in first to second place consistently. I don’t mean to be rude. But read on and you will understand.

People out there that have no sense of car control spend the money. If they can’t win in their class they spend the money (More HP). From my own experience and from a driver coach / friend winning races based on skill and car set up. My RX7 has tops including buying the car $10,000.00 USD in it. I have out performed $40,000 to $80,000 BMW, Porsches RX7 etc.

Run regular gas, Toyo RA1 tires, stock brakes (Hawk Blue Pads), stock transmission, stock rear end, stock injection system with the cheap Mega Squirt system (Ported intake runners), street ported engine done by me (No big name race shop) stock internal parts. The list goes on. Basically drive the car to the limits and feel what it is doing. Adjust your lines, entry speeds, rate of steering input, play in practice. Put way too much toe out and run it to see what it feels like. The same with the rear put massive amounts of camber in and loose a race but run it hard and feel what it’s like. With out the knowledge of car feel you will never make the car handle. Then purchase each item for the car one at a time.

THERE IS NO WAY A COMPLETE PACKAGE OUT THERE THAT YOU CAN BUY AND GO FAST!!! Every car and driver is unique. People that think big bucks wins races are the losers trying to buy that win. I have people at the track look over my competitor’s cars then they look at mine. They scratch their heads and then say “You must be driving the FU#***& wheels off of this thing”. To me that is the best feeling in the world.

Oh by the way, I buy the cheapest Koni 1 way adjustable shocks front and rear. Stock rear sway bar on nylon bushings, 1 1/8th inch front sway bar with bushings (Which I cut the ends off and welded flat bar extensions on with holes in it for adjustments). Front springs Iback (I think that’s the name) rears 220Lb spring no name on them (Wreaking yard stuff) $50.00. Home made rear camber adjusters from two NC ˝” X 4.5” Allen head bolts, two nylon nuts NC and 1.25” solid square bar (Labor 3 hours). Toyo RA1 tires which I run to the cord after flipping them once. Car’s weight with driver this season 2413lbs. USE YOUR BRAIN AND SKILL AND NOT THE WALLET.

Race Hard and Safe!!!
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Old 11-28-06, 01:16 AM
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I met you this fall at the conference race at Portland (I came over with my dad and we talked about suspensions and the car setup). I was there to help out my dad's freind Jeff with his BMW 2002 #66. You two had some good on track battles there on Sunday. It was entertaining to watch.

On the suspension thing. You have good advice there on run a cheap suspension and just drive the car and that works to a point, but from an engineering standpoint, good shocks do make a big difference. Jeff recently changed the rear shocks on his car from some old circle track shocks to some modern aluminum monotube double adjustables and he was very impressed with how much better the car felt. It settled down the car a lot and made it faster and easier to drive. I've finally been able to convince him to make suspension changes for the first time in 20 years and he's been much happier with the car and it's performance. He's now saving his pennies to buy some AD's for the front. I've read other reports of people switching from Konis, which they used to think were pretty good, and then they had their whole perspective changed on what good is, and they got immediately faster.

I'd say that if you've never tried something, it's not fair to compare anything to them. There's a reason all the pro teams run high $ shocks, they're worth seconds a lap and they feel better.
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Old 11-28-06, 01:19 AM
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^ must be a second or third gen? how do you get adjustable rear camber if it is a first gen? Anyway, I agree with the statement to a point, the driver makes the car fast and not what is bolted to the car. However, the kits are usually a good starting point to tune the suspension setup. Instead of of doing everything custom, sometimes items like camber plates and coilovers save some of the development time that is necessary to get the car to handle the way you want by allowing a adjustability.
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Old 05-20-07, 11:24 PM
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MAzdacomp kit is the absolute worst setup on Earth....if you get all the parts....and the correct ones that is.

Not a bash on Mazdacomp at all...love them guys....just this one product is really really poor.
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Old 05-21-07, 12:50 AM
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What's wrong with the kit they sent you? I bought mine several years ago and haven't had much issue.
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Old 05-21-07, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Black91n/a View Post
JIC and Teing DO have stateside support including rebuilding and revalving services. But for ITS I'd say the Advance Design shocks by Ground Control are the way to go, aluminium bodies, titanium internals, double adjustable, and affordable (as these things go anyway). They're definetely cheaper than going with some custom JRZ, Dynamic, Koni 2812, or whatever other high end systems. IIRC they're about $2400. The Mazdaspeed setup is pretty good, or so I've heard, but the shocks aren't adjustable, so if the tracks you run at are very different, or if you want to try out different spring rates then you need to have more than one set of shocks.

BTW I don't think it's fair to compare sub $2000 JIC's and Tein's to $5k and up top of the line stuff like Penske's, of course they're better, for the price they'd better be.
unless they have redesigned them koni > advance design.
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Old 05-21-07, 05:00 PM
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that was a couple years, prolly more than two. Ill give the short now...the kit is made with parts from 4 different suppliers, so nothing fits well anymore and none of the parts are in stock.. I am going to write a polite letter as the asked me to outlining each and every problem with the setup, even the guys on the phone could not believe the trouble with it, Scott was a top notch guy to work with. I will post the letter when I send it to em.
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Old 05-21-07, 09:41 PM
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Does the kit still come with AWR Racing strut tubes & camber plates, koni shocks, eibach sway bars, and eibach springs? Or did they change some stuff around.
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Old 05-21-07, 11:10 PM
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I had no problems with the Mazdacompetition kit. I mean, it's really just putting a bunch of parts together. I had no problems with parts 'not fitting together', and I'm curious what problems you ran into.
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Old 05-22-07, 11:50 AM
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When are coming back out to the track Paul?
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Old 05-27-07, 01:06 AM
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Hey Eric,

Probably the Sears Point event June 30/July 1st.

Depends on if I can figure out this damn ignition wiring and get the beast started again.

PaulC
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Old 05-28-07, 12:56 PM
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I run the Mazda comp kit, along with delrin bushings throughout my Turbo II. I'm well past the traction the kit was meant for and it is still quite predictable and controllable. I've run 340 hp at the wheels with a P275 40 17 Toyo RA-1 in the rear and the roll was more than I'd like, but it was very controllable. For the price, I think the mazdacomp kit is very well put togther. If you are a veteran driver and you are going out to win the class out of the box, I think you are better off building your own setup. But if you are just building a mid pack car to improve in the Mazdacomp kit is quite good. When you start to get good you can replace the dampers when they wear out.

-Trent
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