Suspension Drama.
06-04-12, 01:52 PM
#29
Rotary Freak
Insane suspension. Unreal price.
http://www.anzesuspension.com/applications.cfm#Mazda
Been calling AWR and emialing. No response.
http://www.anzesuspension.com/applications.cfm#Mazda
Been calling AWR and emialing. No response.
http://www.anzesuspension.com/contact.cfm
They have been on a number of the Class champions in the CTCC Series for the last few years.
Eric
06-07-12, 09:52 AM
#30
Received an email from Tony at AWR. Gonna see what a complete kit is and what his recommendations are.
Called bilstien and a rebuild would take about a month but will come valved to spec for all 4 corners for under $500.
No quick option right now for repair or a custom suspension.
Megan and other coilovers are list $900 or so! Why so cheap in comparision to all of these custom ordered ones
Are these custom kits that much better? What can I expect for such an increase of price. Track times decrease or better money spent on track time
Called bilstien and a rebuild would take about a month but will come valved to spec for all 4 corners for under $500.
No quick option right now for repair or a custom suspension.
Megan and other coilovers are list $900 or so! Why so cheap in comparision to all of these custom ordered ones
Are these custom kits that much better? What can I expect for such an increase of price. Track times decrease or better money spent on track time
06-07-12, 09:53 AM
#31
Holey crap, they're Custom fitted Penske's. If you can afford it, jump all over them. They are arguably the best you can get. Wow I am jealous......... Try calling Anze Direct,
http://www.anzesuspension.com/contact.cfm
They have been on a number of the Class champions in the CTCC Series for the last few years.
Eric
http://www.anzesuspension.com/contact.cfm
They have been on a number of the Class champions in the CTCC Series for the last few years.
Eric
06-07-12, 12:42 PM
#32
Received an email from Tony at AWR. Gonna see what a complete kit is and what his recommendations are.
Called bilstien and a rebuild would take about a month but will come valved to spec for all 4 corners for under $500.
No quick option right now for repair or a custom suspension.
Megan and other coilovers are list $900 or so! Why so cheap in comparision to all of these custom ordered ones
Are these custom kits that much better? What can I expect for such an increase of price. Track times decrease or better money spent on track time
Called bilstien and a rebuild would take about a month but will come valved to spec for all 4 corners for under $500.
No quick option right now for repair or a custom suspension.
Megan and other coilovers are list $900 or so! Why so cheap in comparision to all of these custom ordered ones
Are these custom kits that much better? What can I expect for such an increase of price. Track times decrease or better money spent on track time
megans are cheap because the dampers suck
I switched from JIC to DA konis then to custom bilsteins and the difference was night and day. Don't wast your time with crappy coilovers. you'll just end up replacing them later on.
06-14-12, 07:26 AM
#33
thanks eage8. Shipping the bilsteins out for rebuild/revalve today. All 4 corners. Will research changing the rear delrin bushing to something else. Maybe bilstein will have something for me.
Also in the works talking with AWR to see what they have for the future. Apparently they have shorter struts/shocks to allow the car to be lower. Also they have adjustable shocks with remote canisters like you suggested in the beginning. If I want to run at all this year I need to rebuild my current setup as AWR is backed up. Racing season in full swing.
Any idea what spring rate I should valve these at? I run 400/250. AWR suggest something heavier.
Also in the works talking with AWR to see what they have for the future. Apparently they have shorter struts/shocks to allow the car to be lower. Also they have adjustable shocks with remote canisters like you suggested in the beginning. If I want to run at all this year I need to rebuild my current setup as AWR is backed up. Racing season in full swing.
Any idea what spring rate I should valve these at? I run 400/250. AWR suggest something heavier.
06-14-12, 09:26 AM
#34
Rotary Freak
Ian, I run 600/400 and it a decent all around rate. For Shannonville I drop down to 400/275 as mechanical grip over the bumps is important. I think the same rates (with decent sized bars) would work well at TMP and CTMP DDT. What bars are you running? Al runs a bit softer than me because he has little girly arms and doesn't like the bump feedback, LOL.
Regarding the Bilsteins, great shocks for the price and Al and I both run them right now. As you know, I am converting to 3 ways on my car as after experiencing the Dynamics on my Cougar, they are soooo much better, its not funny.
Eric
Regarding the Bilsteins, great shocks for the price and Al and I both run them right now. As you know, I am converting to 3 ways on my car as after experiencing the Dynamics on my Cougar, they are soooo much better, its not funny.
Eric
06-14-12, 09:35 AM
#35
I'm currently running 500/350 with a whitline front sway bar and no rear on my fairly heavy TII (2750 lbs with a full tank)
it's a decent set up but I'm thinking about going slightly stiffer, maybe 600/400
400/250 is better for stripped out NAs... which is what most track guys run in ITS and EP.
it's a decent set up but I'm thinking about going slightly stiffer, maybe 600/400
400/250 is better for stripped out NAs... which is what most track guys run in ITS and EP.
06-14-12, 10:59 AM
#36
Ian, I run 600/400 and it a decent all around rate. For Shannonville I drop down to 400/275 as mechanical grip over the bumps is important. I think the same rates (with decent sized bars) would work well at TMP and CTMP DDT. What bars are you running? Al runs a bit softer than me because he has little girly arms and doesn't like the bump feedback, LOL.
Regarding the Bilsteins, great shocks for the price and Al and I both run them right now. As you know, I am converting to 3 ways on my car as after experiencing the Dynamics on my Cougar, they are soooo much better, its not funny.
Eric
Regarding the Bilsteins, great shocks for the price and Al and I both run them right now. As you know, I am converting to 3 ways on my car as after experiencing the Dynamics on my Cougar, they are soooo much better, its not funny.
Eric
I am running stock bar up front no rear with new energy suspension bushings all around.
06-14-12, 11:00 AM
#37
I'm currently running 500/350 with a whitline front sway bar and no rear on my fairly heavy TII (2750 lbs with a full tank)
it's a decent set up but I'm thinking about going slightly stiffer, maybe 600/400
400/250 is better for stripped out NAs... which is what most track guys run in ITS and EP.
it's a decent set up but I'm thinking about going slightly stiffer, maybe 600/400
400/250 is better for stripped out NAs... which is what most track guys run in ITS and EP.
06-14-12, 11:08 AM
#39
600/400 would be good cause i can reuse my 400's
I am a cheap bastard.
06-14-12, 01:16 PM
#40
keep in mind that some coilovers use different length springs front and back. I ran a set of old front 7" 350# springs on the back of my DA konis and they were and the very top of the perches. I got a new set of 10" 350#s for my new suspension... but now my 7" 500#s are too short for my custom front struts *sigh*
06-14-12, 02:59 PM
#41
Rotary Freak
Back when I went to coilovers, I got a bunch of pairs of AFCO 8"x2.5" springs. Almost every available rate from 250 up to 750. I tested like mad for a few years and found out what I liked the best and pretty much settled on a good personal setup for Mosport GP track and Shannonville.
Keep in mind that swaybar sizes effect the handling a lot as well and you can use lighter springs with heavier bars if the track is smooth or medium springs with small bars if the track is rough. It all depends on your driving style, smooth or aggressive and pounding kerbs. It also depends on tires that you are running and weight of the car.
Your white car is a full interior street car with a TII in it. I would look at a Whiteline or Suspension Techniques Streetable front bar, no rear bar ( just disconnect one end before you go on track), 600 lb fronts and 350 to 400 lb rears. The 350's will give you more squat, weight transfer and grip out of the corner at the cost of some rear roll. The 400's will control roll better and reduce squat and give you a more stable platform on smoother tracks. I wouldn't go much over 400 lbs in the rear as it can quickly make your car loose or oversteery. Not many guys like that feel, especially in a street car.
Eric
Keep in mind that swaybar sizes effect the handling a lot as well and you can use lighter springs with heavier bars if the track is smooth or medium springs with small bars if the track is rough. It all depends on your driving style, smooth or aggressive and pounding kerbs. It also depends on tires that you are running and weight of the car.
Your white car is a full interior street car with a TII in it. I would look at a Whiteline or Suspension Techniques Streetable front bar, no rear bar ( just disconnect one end before you go on track), 600 lb fronts and 350 to 400 lb rears. The 350's will give you more squat, weight transfer and grip out of the corner at the cost of some rear roll. The 400's will control roll better and reduce squat and give you a more stable platform on smoother tracks. I wouldn't go much over 400 lbs in the rear as it can quickly make your car loose or oversteery. Not many guys like that feel, especially in a street car.
Eric
06-14-12, 08:46 PM
#42
i could have told you that lol. i run 8" springs up front with 4" hyperco helpers.
anywho, I run 600/430, ST front bar on stiff, no rear. I may end up going stiffer in the front, we'll see. I wouldn't go any softer personally, but track and autox are a bit different. I was 2800# last year, now she tips the scales at 2490.
anywho, I run 600/430, ST front bar on stiff, no rear. I may end up going stiffer in the front, we'll see. I wouldn't go any softer personally, but track and autox are a bit different. I was 2800# last year, now she tips the scales at 2490.
06-14-12, 08:52 PM
#43
IMO, thats why FC's always work better with no rear bar: when you remove the bar, you have to increase rear spring to maintain balance, which helps combat squat. The only reason I can think of for wanting squat is to drop the rear roll canter (reduce rear lateral load transfer, increasing rear grip), but I dont think the roll center moves on an FC. S13's on the other hand seem to work better with less rear spring and a bar. They have multilink rear with a plunging roll center, and lots of antisquat.
06-14-12, 09:43 PM
#44
i could have told you that lol. i run 8" springs up front with 4" hyperco helpers.
anywho, I run 600/430, ST front bar on stiff, no rear. I may end up going stiffer in the front, we'll see. I wouldn't go any softer personally, but track and autox are a bit different. I was 2800# last year, now she tips the scales at 2490.
anywho, I run 600/430, ST front bar on stiff, no rear. I may end up going stiffer in the front, we'll see. I wouldn't go any softer personally, but track and autox are a bit different. I was 2800# last year, now she tips the scales at 2490.
06-15-12, 12:35 PM
#45
Maybe he put a rotary in it?
My TII is full interior (SSM) and scales 2,5xx to 2,600lbs (depending on how much gas) with 50% to 51.6% rear weight bias no driver/passenger.
I can get all the wheels the same weight to a pound except the pesky dr. rear which ends up 40lbs heavier. Gotta move the heavy *** muffler from dr. side to the middle- lol.
My TII is full interior (SSM) and scales 2,5xx to 2,600lbs (depending on how much gas) with 50% to 51.6% rear weight bias no driver/passenger.
I can get all the wheels the same weight to a pound except the pesky dr. rear which ends up 40lbs heavier. Gotta move the heavy *** muffler from dr. side to the middle- lol.
06-15-12, 12:46 PM
#46
Maybe he put a rotary in it?
My TII is full interior (SSM) and scales 2,5xx to 2,600lbs (depending on how much gas) with 50% to 51.6% rear weight bias no driver/passenger.
I can get all the wheels the same weight to a pound except the pesky dr. rear which ends up 40lbs heavier. Gotta move the heavy *** muffler from dr. side to the middle- lol.
My TII is full interior (SSM) and scales 2,5xx to 2,600lbs (depending on how much gas) with 50% to 51.6% rear weight bias no driver/passenger.
I can get all the wheels the same weight to a pound except the pesky dr. rear which ends up 40lbs heavier. Gotta move the heavy *** muffler from dr. side to the middle- lol.
Last time I weighed my TII (also SSM) it was 2750# with a full tank... damn S5s. I need to take my dumb auto seat belts and my sun roof out...
06-15-12, 01:03 PM
#47
Rotary Freak
Squat doesn't actually do anything positive for the car, its just an unfortunate byproduct of trailing arm suspension. Squatting decreases rearward weight transfer by lowering the CG, while adding a bunch of camber. you'll notice drag cars have loads of antisquat.
IMO, thats why FC's always work better with no rear bar: when you remove the bar, you have to increase rear spring to maintain balance, which helps combat squat. The only reason I can think of for wanting squat is to drop the rear roll canter (reduce rear lateral load transfer, increasing rear grip), but I dont think the roll center moves on an FC. S13's on the other hand seem to work better with less rear spring and a bar. They have multilink rear with a plunging roll center, and lots of antisquat.
IMO, thats why FC's always work better with no rear bar: when you remove the bar, you have to increase rear spring to maintain balance, which helps combat squat. The only reason I can think of for wanting squat is to drop the rear roll canter (reduce rear lateral load transfer, increasing rear grip), but I dont think the roll center moves on an FC. S13's on the other hand seem to work better with less rear spring and a bar. They have multilink rear with a plunging roll center, and lots of antisquat.
FWIW, at Mosport on 225x50x15's I can generate about 2" of squat coming out of Turn 5b using 400 lb rear springs and I can go to full throttle before the apex. When I add a rear bar I spool the inside rear some as the car wants to lift the inside rear as it becomes unweighted, so I run without a rear bar. The car with no rear bar and 400 lb springs, then tries to unload the inside front in Turns 9, 10, 2 and 3 and tricycle. To try to control that I have gone to 550 lb rear springs with a disconnected rear bar. It controls the tricycling, makes the car way more stable in the fast stuff, but I end up power drifting hard out of Turns 3, 5b and 10, just like a Trans Am car. So I have to delay throttle application and I end up going slower. Now I can control that with bigger, stickier rear tires and maybe go faster overall, but I am limited to the 225x50/45x15 tire size.
I have an idea about Ian's (the OP) car and that is why I suggested this approach. Everybody has different suspension tuning ideas, but you are correct with the concepts and I agree. I just do things a bit differently to handle a real world setup issue at track.
Eric
06-15-12, 01:11 PM
#48
While I understand what you are saying and to a great extent I agree, I believe that in traction limited situations the FC squat reflects the fact that the car is transfering weight to the rear tires and it is a symptom and not a desired tendancy. Like most people are when they are running r-comps, having rearward weight transfer reduces the tendancy for the FC to tirespin or power oversteer out of the corners. The only negatives to doing this is camber gain from the compression and the reduction in tire contact patch. I control that with setting a fairly mild rear camber that grows to about -3 degrees under full acceleration compression.
FWIW, at Mosport on 225x50x15's I can generate about 2" of squat coming out of Turn 5b using 400 lb rear springs and I can go to full throttle before the apex. When I add a rear bar I spool the inside rear some as the car wants to lift the inside rear as it becomes unweighted, so I run without a rear bar. The car with no rear bar and 400 lb springs, then tries to unload the inside front in Turns 9, 10, 2 and 3 and tricycle. To try to control that I have gone to 550 lb rear springs with a disconnected rear bar. It controls the tricycling, makes the car way more stable in the fast stuff, but I end up power drifting hard out of Turns 3, 5b and 10, just like a Trans Am car. So I have to delay throttle application and I end up going slower. Now I can control that with bigger, stickier rear tires and maybe go faster overall, but I am limited to the 225x50/45x15 tire size.
I have an idea about Ian's (the OP) car and that is why I suggested this approach. Everybody has different suspension tuning ideas, but you are correct with the concepts and I agree. I just do things a bit differently to handle a real world setup issue at track.
Eric
FWIW, at Mosport on 225x50x15's I can generate about 2" of squat coming out of Turn 5b using 400 lb rear springs and I can go to full throttle before the apex. When I add a rear bar I spool the inside rear some as the car wants to lift the inside rear as it becomes unweighted, so I run without a rear bar. The car with no rear bar and 400 lb springs, then tries to unload the inside front in Turns 9, 10, 2 and 3 and tricycle. To try to control that I have gone to 550 lb rear springs with a disconnected rear bar. It controls the tricycling, makes the car way more stable in the fast stuff, but I end up power drifting hard out of Turns 3, 5b and 10, just like a Trans Am car. So I have to delay throttle application and I end up going slower. Now I can control that with bigger, stickier rear tires and maybe go faster overall, but I am limited to the 225x50/45x15 tire size.
I have an idea about Ian's (the OP) car and that is why I suggested this approach. Everybody has different suspension tuning ideas, but you are correct with the concepts and I agree. I just do things a bit differently to handle a real world setup issue at track.
Eric
What do you run for static camber in the back? I have my AWR links maxed out and can't get less than 2.5*... I feel like I'm doing something wrong
I ordered a set of MMR links, but who knows when they'll come...Also, what are you running for a front spring? 600#?
how much does your car weigh and what kind of power is it making?
06-15-12, 11:06 PM
#49
Or go on a diet
This!
But, I corner weigh without driver as I usually have a passenger in that car- lol.
My car definitely hooked up much better with softer damping (same spring rate) in the rear. It really felt like it squatted and hooked with a tad of understeer off the apex.
This!
But, I corner weigh without driver as I usually have a passenger in that car- lol.
My car definitely hooked up much better with softer damping (same spring rate) in the rear. It really felt like it squatted and hooked with a tad of understeer off the apex.
06-17-12, 08:34 AM
#50
Rotary Freak
very interesting.
What do you run for static camber in the back? I have my AWR links maxed out and can't get less than 2.5*... I feel like I'm doing something wrong I ordered a set of MMR links, but who knows when they'll come...
Also, what are you running for a front spring? 600#?
how much does your car weigh and what kind of power is it making?
What do you run for static camber in the back? I have my AWR links maxed out and can't get less than 2.5*... I feel like I'm doing something wrong
I ordered a set of MMR links, but who knows when they'll come...Also, what are you running for a front spring? 600#?
how much does your car weigh and what kind of power is it making?
I run between 450 and 600 front springs depending on the track. Mostly the 600's but they are way too stiff for bumpy slower tracks and makes the car bound off the surface at times.
The car weighs about 2650 with driver and 1/2 a tank of fuel and I am making around 200 rwhp.
Eric
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