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Should I do rims and coilovers?

Old 11-22-06, 04:26 PM
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Should I do rims and coilovers?

The car is 93 touring with 65k on stock suspension, stock rims w/ toyo r coumpounds and a basically stock 2000 ls1.

I have done some high speed auto-x and track days about two years ago. I am planning on hitting a few track days and at least 5 or 6 high speed autoX's this coming year. I think I am a decent driver but still have a lot to learn.

The only suspension mod that I have done so far is a set of bushing. I want to go with 18 x 10 CCW's and some coilovers eventually.

My question is should I wait to get some more expirence or just spend the money and do the upgrades? This is the way I am leaning but just want to get everyone's thoughts.
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Old 11-22-06, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wickedrx7
The car is 93 touring with 65k on stock suspension, stock rims w/ toyo r coumpounds and a basically stock 2000 ls1.

I have done some high speed auto-x and track days about two years ago. I am planning on hitting a few track days and at least 5 or 6 high speed autoX's this coming year. I think I am a decent driver but still have a lot to learn.

The only suspension mod that I have done so far is a set of bushing. I want to go with 18 x 10 CCW's and some coilovers eventually.

My question is should I wait to get some more expirence or just spend the money and do the upgrades? This is the way I am leaning but just want to get everyone's thoughts.
A lot of guys say the first thing to modify should be the driver. But it's your car, and if you want to modify it, for looks, or performance, then you should. Coilovers will no doubt make the car handle better (if adjusted properly) and larger wheels will equate to larger rubber, which will give you more grip. You won't have to re-learn to drive the car, but it will feel different, and probably take some getting used to after everything is installed.

In my opinion, if you've got the funds to do what you want to do with it, then go for it!

Have fun,
James

PS: CCW's =
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Old 11-28-06, 01:01 AM
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Thumbs up Practice and Learn

I don’t mean to be rude. But read on and you will understand.

People out there that have no sense of car control spend the money. If they can’t win in their class they spend the money (More HP). From my own experience and from a driver coach / friend winning races based on skill and car set up. My RX7 has tops including buying the car $10,000.00 USD in it. I have out performed $40,000 to $80,000 BMW, Porsches RX7 etc.

Run regular gas, Toyo RA1 tires, stock brakes (Hawk Blue Pads), stock transmission, stock rear end, stock injection system with the cheap Mega Squirt system (Ported intake runners), street ported engine done by me (No big name race shop) stock internal parts. The list goes on. Basically drive the car to the limits and feel what it is doing. Adjust your lines, entry speeds, rate of steering input, play in practice. Put way too much toe out and run it to see what it feels like. The same with the rear put massive amounts of camber in and loose a race but run it hard and feel what it’s like. With out the knowledge of car feel you will never make the car handle. Then purchase each item for the car one at a time.

THERE IS NO WAY A COMPLETE PACKAGE OUT THERE THAT YOU CAN BUY AND GO FAST!!! Every car and driver is unique. People that think big bucks wins races are the losers trying to buy that win. I have people at the track look over my competitor’s cars then they look at mine. They scratch their heads and then say “You must be driving the FU#***& wheels off of this thing”. To me that is the best feeling in the world.

Oh by the way, I buy the cheapest Koni 1 way adjustable shocks front and rear. Stock rear sway bar on nylon bushings, 1 1/8th inch front sway bar with bushings (Which I cut the ends off and welded flat bar extensions on with holes in it for adjustments). Front springs Iback (I think that’s the name) rears 220Lb spring no name on them (Wreaking yard stuff) $50.00. Home made rear camber adjusters from two NC ˝” X 4.5” Allen head bolts, two nylon nuts NC and 1.25” solid square bar (Labor 3 hours). Toyo RA1 tires which I run to the cord after flipping them once. Car’s weight with driver this season 2413lbs. USE YOUR BRAIN AND SKILL AND NOT THE WALLET.

Race Hard and Safe!!!
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Old 11-28-06, 11:38 AM
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I reccomend doing one change at a time. Get used to it, then upgrade the next thing.
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Old 11-28-06, 12:09 PM
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My pat answer is that if you're not sure if you need *insert trick part here* then you in fact don't need it. If you're not sure if you need it you won't know how to exploit it anyway after it's on the car.

The point made of it being your car and doing what you want is well taken, but if your goal is to go fast and beat other drivers your money is best spent on making yourself a better driver. Souping up the driver will always be cheaper and faster than souping up the car. Like SCCA RX7 RACER I run away from much more powerful cars at track days all the time in my nearly stock FD. Fast drivers in slow cars will beat slow drivers in fast cars all day long.
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Old 11-28-06, 02:24 PM
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I think it depends on the person. BTW, it makes little sense to put on 10" wide wheels and not upgrade the coilovers. All that extra rubber is gonna be a waste without the supporting mods.
In one years time, I was able to move into the local expert class and I am now running with many of the quicker cars.
For me, I had a hard time not spending the money, since I had it available, to go slower than my ability. On the other hand, my car is now faster than I am. This is better for me since I generally stay within my ability. Driving does take time, I just wanted to blame myself instead of the car.
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Old 11-28-06, 09:05 PM
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Darkslide - no offence intended, but if don't know anything about vehicle dynamics or engineering then you really shouldn't post just for an opportunity to see yourself in print. There are lots of good, and even excellent drivers who really don't know much about "why" cars do what they do, and your post indicates that you are probably one of those. Your driving may be strong, but your engineering is weak grasshopper. If 10" wheels can be installed without interferences and set at the right camber and toe they will almost certainly give increased grip (tires being equal, of course). Considering the amount of low rpm torque that an LS1 conversion brings to these cars, I would have to guess that a lot more rubber would be almost mandatory to control wheelspin under acceleration. Coilovers will not automatically help OR hinder that, the system would have to be assessed on a case by case basis. Sure, coilovers offer some increased parameters of adjustability in terms of ride height and cornerweighting but these are primarily exploited in RACING cars where spring rate changes are frequent and setups vary from track to track. For an autocross and occasional track day car I would say that a good stable shock set up and possibly revised spring rates for the stock suspension would probably be a better and much more cost effective solution. In some cases coilovers actually increase unsprung weight which is detrimental to suspension function, so don't assume that just because someone has spent more money they automatically got better performance. Everything in vehicle dynamics is a tradeoff. Pretty much nothing is free, if you get better performance somewhere, you are giving something up elsewhere.

"Mods" for the sake of saying you have them are typically a good way to prevent yourself from learning what you need to know. Just to clarify the soapbox that I am speaking from, I am an engineer, I roadrace a regular schedule, and am an instructor for both the roadracing club I belong to and the local BMW CCA chapter. One of the problems we have when teaching high performance driving is that in many modern cars the limits are so ridiculously high and the cars themselves so confidence inspiring that drivers think they are Michael Schumacher in a very short amount of time. A third gen Rx-7 is scary fast and sticks like a racecar right out of the box. Take that same driver and put them in well maintained 1982 GSL and suddenly they feel a lot less superhuman! You can learn more about driving at the limit in a car that has low limits. It's just a lot less intimidating when you are sliding all four tires around a corner at 31 miles an hour in a Pinto, than trying to break the tires loose in a Porsche at 80 in the same corner. The problem is that everybody want to go fast, and they feel that a fast car makes tham a fast driver. I've read a LOT of Damon's posts and I think he will back me up on this one: There are a lot of fast cars, but there aren't a lot of fast drivers out there! All it takes is money to have a fast car, but to be a fast driver takes a commitment to learning and it cannot be purchased. Sure, money helps, and it can get you to some driving schools that will help you a great deal, but the actual learning comes as a result of repetition and a mind receptive to the idea that natural talent is nothing without hard work and development. To get back on topic - mods do you no good unless you can feel something that you don't like and you know what you need to change to fix it. The desire to just pour as many mods onto the car as quickly as possible Gran Turismo style is just hoping for a shortcut that will somehow make you "fast" without putting in the effort. Don't work for a fast car - work to be a fast driver.
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Old 11-29-06, 12:13 AM
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^ Agreed, especially for just recreational use. In a race it's a little different, but if you can't max out the stock setup, then you'll be even farther away from maxing out a modified setup.

At the driving school's I've been to my underpowered, undersuspended, undertired car with me driving was able to pass things like a Porsche 996 Carrera 4S, a BMW E36 M3, a Porsche 944 Turbo, a Lotus Esprit S4, and the list goes on. There's no way that I should have been faster than them if they'd been driving nearly as hard or as well as I was (this was C group, D being novice, A being advanced/instructors, I'll be in B next time).

When you do change something, keep the mods balanced, it'll make the car faster, better balanced and easier to control. Doing things in steps is good, that way your skills have time to catch up to the car's abilities and you won't suddenly be overwhelmed by a massive change.
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Old 11-29-06, 07:57 AM
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Gee, I hate "me too" posts, but I wanted to make one suggestion:

Take the money that you would spend on the wheels and coil-overs and invest it in:
- more HPDEs, auto-x schools, etc.
- tires (good DOTs, not stickies), brake pads, fluids, alignment and other consumables
- safety equipment (hans, suit, harnesses, roll-bar)

You'll get more seat time, improve the driver, and most importantly Have More Fun!

The FD really is set up well "out of the box" (as mentioned earlier). It will not be the limiting factor in your times. Learn to drive it well and it will just keep getting faster and faster.

But it's your money - if you want the new setup, then buy it. However, if you want to get serious about racing, your money is better spent on the driver.

-b

Last edited by wrankin; 11-29-06 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 11-29-06, 08:43 AM
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all comments above are worthy of consideration and many good points made.

since you are a neighbor i thought i'd add my thoughts...

setup is as important as hardware.

i suggest you find a set of Eibach ProKit springs, around $200 new, often found on the classifieds for less. this will change your spring rate from 263 front and 195 rear to 350 front and 255 rear as well as lower your car a bit. run the stock shocks that work well w the spring rate.

this will take care of the hardware.

setup...

you need to learn it as that is where the speed/control is, along w driving skills of course.

you need an air pressure gauge w a bleeder and a pyrometer. i recommend you get Carol Smith's classic book: Tune To Win. read it carefully.

for your track days start at 30 psi front and 27 psi rear. run 3 laps then check and record your tire temps and pressures. reset your camber accordingly. i suggest you run 1.2 neg camber front and rear initially w just a touch of toe in front and no toe at all in back. zero rear thrust angle and equal minimal caster.

check tire temps after every session and record in an notebook. set on-track tire pressures according to tire temperature immediately after each session. your tire temps will tell you exactly what you need as to pressure and settings.

driving fast is all about running near the edge... your ability to drive near the edge of control will be greatly enhanced by not running too stiff a suspension. it is a common misunderstanding that fast racecars run brickhard suspensions. stiff suspensions do decrease body roll. since the FD has really good negative camber gain like real racecars it is not hurt by some roll.

the key is that on a given car changing the spring rate to decrease roll does NOT change lateral weight transfer. it just speeds up the transfer. that means you have less feedback in a corner as to what the car is going to do. softer cars are easier to drive at the limit. the Eibach springs are an excellent initial rate for you and will keep you out of the weeds. they also lower the car . low is fast.

so throw a set of springs on the car, read up on suspension dynamics and settings, buy a pyrometer (a simple one will work great) and decent air pressure guage and have some fun. you will be way ahead of the crowd w the right setup.

howard coleman
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Old 11-29-06, 07:21 PM
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Now THAT is useful information. Don't get sucked into buying things because you get "street cred" when you mention your mods. This is exactly the approach I was talking about. To reinforce a couple of his points: 1) Set up is so often overlooked, even in club racing. It makes a HUGE difference in how the car behaves at the limit, and all it takes is some relatively affordable equipment and a meticulous approach to learning about your car. This is actually one of the hallmarks that I use to determine which of the students at the race school are serious and which don't realize what they are getting into. Show me someone who takes the time to properly document their setups and learn from it and THAT is the guy I am willing to ride right seat at high speed with! 2) Every car and every track are different, and throw in the different driving styles and preferred feel for different drivers and there is no one setup that is right. What matters is that it is right for YOU, and meets the challenge of the stopwatch if that is your ultimate goal. These things are definitely measurable, both quantitatively and qualitatively. 30 or 40 years ago there was a trend towards racing and sports cars that were terribly oversprung and underdamped because it made up for some design shortcomings in tires and suspensions. In many cases it didn't make the cars better - it just made them more predictable. Modern suspension design has come a long way, and many cars can be run with a lot less spring. Harder is not automatically better, and a properly designed suspension with some compliance can be a great advantage on the track. As a general rule it tends to make cars more forgiving at the limit with a wider breakaway dynamic that allows you to run closer to the edge with less risk. One of the instructors that I had when I was a novice said something that has always stuck with me. He said that all cars have a limit and exceeding that limit means loss of control of the vehicle. A talented novice with good skills has a cornering graph that looks like a comb - swings from well below the limit to spikes that kiss the limit, or even exceed it, then plunge downward again. A truly fast driver has a cornering graph that looks like a very gentle shallow wave that never really touches the limit but is rarely more than just a hair below it. Most young drivers believe they are driving the wheels off the car because they frequently touch the ragged edge, and with quick reactions and drastic action are able to save it making for an exciting ride. A true pro is a guy who gets you around the track several seconds faster, yet never looks like he is getting in over his head. He smoothly keeps it close to the limit, but doesn't risk jumping over. In comparison it is a boring ride, but a much faster one!

I've been thinking a lot about the driving that I do, and I realize that what I am after is probably not what most young people think racing is all about. When people find out that I race sports cars I invariably get the standard comments about the danger, and the death wish, and how exciting and scary the whole thing is and it is hard to give them a true feeling of why I do it, and how little of those things it is. I think that most young drivers that start into high perfomance driving have the same misconceptions, and that is one of the things that ultimately alienates a large number of them. Racing, and driving well in general, is much less exciting than most people think. Like any difficult physical skill that you try to master, it is deeply satisfying in many ways, but for the most part it isn't scary, or thrilling, or overexciting any more. I love it just as much as I ever did, and have no intention of getting out of it any time soon but it's like any other skill that you acquire through long hours of dedicated effort. I think that is why so many kids are attracted to drifting, because they are looking for the "extreme", the "danger", the "thrill" of a roller coaster ride, and racing - done well - is none of those things.

Wow - off my soapbox! Rambling WAY too far. Great post Howard - you can't pay for info that good. Listen to the man.
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Old 11-29-06, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
My pat answer is that if you're not sure if you need *insert trick part here* then you in fact don't need it. If you're not sure if you need it you won't know how to exploit it anyway after it's on the car.

The point made of it being your car and doing what you want is well taken, but if your goal is to go fast and beat other drivers your money is best spent on making yourself a better driver. Souping up the driver will always be cheaper and faster than souping up the car. Like SCCA RX7 RACER I run away from much more powerful cars at track days all the time in my nearly stock FD. Fast drivers in slow cars will beat slow drivers in fast cars all day long.
What happens if the same driver can go faster in the slower car?

*Hint* *Hint*
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Old 11-30-06, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by NeoTuri
What happens if the same driver can go faster in the slower car?

*Hint* *Hint*
You lost me?
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Old 11-30-06, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Boswoj
and how exciting and scary the whole thing is and it is hard to give them a true feeling of why I do it, and how little of those things it is. ...Racing, and driving well in general, is much less exciting than most people think.
I've always equated race drivers to fighter pilots. Everyone thinks fighter pilots are like Tom Cruise in Top Gun. They're far from it. Today's fighter pilots are some of the most highly educated and cerebral people you'll meet; they're terribly cold and calculating when at work. The best race drivers are the same. The "seat of your pants" type cowboys will be shot out of the sky or blown into the weeds when faced with real competition. Driving is a mental practice; it's all in the concentration and thinking.
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Old 11-30-06, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
You lost me?
I recently auto-x my Rx-8 at a regional event and beat some drivers (raw time) I normally could not in the Rx-7! I'm having some difficulty figuring out why I was able to do that since all I did was swap wheels.
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Old 11-30-06, 09:14 AM
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As a matter of fact, one of the best compliments that fighter pilots give their peers is "he can really fly the program". The very best pilots the military has to offer are like machines. They have exact knowledge of the mission profile and the airframe's performance parameters and they follow it precisely. Climb at an exact rate, turns at exact g's, hitting marks at the exact second. It is a model that the best race car drivers strive to emulate. When we run endurance races we pick a target lap time that we think will get us to the finish line with the result we want, yet still keep the stress level on the car at a level that wil allow us to preserve the machinery throughout the race. It becomes not a contest of outright speed for the drivers, as that target laptime is often a couple seconds off of tehpotential of both the car and the drivers. It becomes a contest to see who can "fly the program" and lap consistently at a target time lap after lap, after lap. The ability to maintain concentration and not lose focus on long term goals is painfully apparent when you review the data after the race. A quick look at the lap charts and you can see who the good drivers are, and it has absolutely no relationship to how fast a car they are in.
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Old 11-30-06, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NeoTuri
I recently auto-x my Rx-8 at a regional event and beat some drivers (raw time) I normally could not in the Rx-7! I'm having some difficulty figuring out why I was able to do that since all I did was swap wheels.
Course suitability to the car or you just drive the 8 more confidently.

I don't know for certain but I think the FD and RX-8 are geared very differently down low. A well driven RX-8 locally has run times equal to me on some occasions. The times it's happened the courses were tightish and had no fast sections; all low-midrange speeds which puts the turbo FD at a disadvantage.
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Old 11-30-06, 11:47 AM
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@ NeoTuri,
Your results don't surprise me much. The RX-8 has a great suspension design, mass has been moved towards the center of the car (battery, fuel tank, lack of turbos & accessories), the non-turbo powerband is very predictable, and the gearing and redline are more suited for autocross speeds. Even if your RX-7 had brand new suspension bushings, shocks, and tires, I think most people will be faster in the RX-8 simply because it's easier to drive.



@ wickedrx7,
As many others have mentioned, do you want to build a faster car, or train a faster driver? Have you already autocrossed the car with the LS1 installed? I think that wheels and tires would be almost necessary to compensate for the extra low-end torque of the V8. Coilovers can make your car handle better, but with increased adjustability it becomes easier and easier to screw up your settings.



The other posters have already mentioned the importance of setup. If you don't want to spend much time tuning, stick to OEM and adjust alignment and tire pressures. If you want to learn a lot and spend a lot of time testing (which can be frustrating when you set the car up wrong), go for the coilovers.


Sounds like fun either way,
-s-
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Old 11-30-06, 11:39 PM
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Thanks for all the info, I appreciate it.

When I worked for a race team when I was 18 (almost 10 years ago) I remember asking the driver, "is it a huge rush" and he said "no, you don't really have time to think about the rush of it. He had been racing all his life and was very calculated. This boggled my mind at the time.

I was originally drawn to racing more for the rush of it, but it is now more about getting faster and improving on my skills. I already record all my tire pressures, times, and alignments. I still have a huge smile on my face when I get off the track. I think I will stop when I don't get this amount of joy from the sport. Why else would I do it.

On another note, I am about to purchase a racing suit, any suggestions? I know that the more expensive suits are better but I don't want to spend a ton, probably 500-800. Are there any good suits in this range?

Thanks
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Old 12-01-06, 12:40 AM
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Sparco's bottom tier suit is actually quite a good value, and I (and most budget minded club racers!) have worn one for years. They are multi layer so you dont need to wear the full nomex underwear package to meet requirements. It is much easier to just slip into the suit when you finish putting rotors on the car five minutes before you need to be on pregrid, then to strip and don the full nomex underwear kit, then put on a single layer suit. Anyway, I think they can still be had for around 500 bucks.
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