j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the Rx8 engines have a bad rap, but on the other hand i've bought 3 broken Rx8's and i haven't had to do anything more than a clutch.

part of the bad rap is that the Rx8 is a 21st century car, so if you have to open the hood people think its unreliable. and actually frequently don't open the hood, i bought my 3rd Rx8 cheap because it had a dead engine, but once i looked at it, it needed 4 coils and a 60k service (76k on the odometer). after that, it was perfectly fine.

the FD people would be happy with an engine that ran for 76k...

Speedanimal

Hmm, I guess that is a good point. I suppose I will have to jump on the Rx8 forums and see what they say. So far I haven't had much luck finding a Miata in my area, searching for one with a torsen diff has been a set back.

Thanks a bunch for the help guys! Who knows, I may end up with a rotary in a few months anyway.

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

I'm selling mine soon, but you're not in the area lol

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

lol, yeah i had an eye open for a miata for a while and if the price is good, and the car hasn't been sawed in half and put back together, they sell FAST.

that being said there haven't been many good Rx8's either.

agershon

iTrader: (1)

So yesterday I agreed to trade my NA Miata for a race-prepped FC. So, I'm hoping the answer to the OP's question is "RX-7".

I haven't had a chance to drive the FC at a track yet. But, I did about 8 track days in my 91 Miata, and I can say that it's the perfect entry-level tracking car. It's also a great platform for serious racing. It's reliable and parts are plentiful and CHEAP. For example, a front BBK is $449. I had a very tough time deciding whether to keep my Miata and convert it to race car or purchase something else.

I'm only about 5'10" and the Miata is very cramped. Claustrophobia-inducing even. For anyone my height or taller, it's a challenge to find an off-the-shelf seating/roll bar solution that passes the broomstick test. My only real option was to have the seat custom mounted with the trans tunnel hammered out to fit.

Sitting in the FC, I have room to breathe. I have numerous seats to choose from that fit and I can drop them in without custom fab. I have almost 6" between my head and the roof.

Now, I don't mean to say the Miata is unsafe (thousands of people are driving them at the track every weekend). But that's the dirty "little" secret ... there's barely any safety margin. With a full cage installed, you're basically resting your leg against the door bar and your helmet against the halo bar.

I don't mean to start a flame war about relative safety, but I bring it up because it was a factor in my decision to choose an FC as I plan to start W2W racing.

gnx7

iTrader: (10)

IMO the FD with its longer wheelbase and ability to fit much more rubber under the stock fenders (rolled) is the best choice especially with your height. Get a non sunroof model (Base/R1).
FC's work too... and stock parts are cheaper; however once you start to modify it (big brakes, nice lightweight wheels, suspension) the only difference will be the cost of initial purchase. Resale on FC's is nothing. FD's actually can command a decent price upon resale.

If its strictly for track.... you should buy one that is already built up and save thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars vs. doing it yourself. ie roll cage, big brakes, suspension, race seat, tuning etc all adds up very very fast.

I have $5K in a set of wheels/tires for my FD. A single set! Racing isn't cheap.

Stock rolled fenders on an FD can fit 285/30/18's all around on 18x10's. That will provide plenty of fun. My car gobbles up Miata's like candy. I have typically 300hp and more importantly 300 ft/lbs more torque than most of them.

If you don't want to pay for the expensive tuning (who tunes them in Oklahoma) a turbo rotary needs.... plus frequent rebuilds... you should consider an LS v8 swapped car. Pump gas, anyone can tune them, cheap rebuild parts any competent machine shop can complete.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

Stock rolled fenders on an FD can fit 285/30/18's all around on 18x10's

Add coilovers and I found its 295/30-18 on 18x11 +45.

Completely stock RX-8 also swallows 18x11 +45 and 295/30-18.

Since the RX-8 uses a taller tire its easier to go wider as well. 18x12 +30 and 315/30-18 are just an (aggressive) fender roll/pull away.

Toyo R888 295/30-18 are $240

Federal 285/30-18 RS-R are $136

Either way, its a grip of grip for your buck and no problem to drive to/from the track.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

I would go FC. I have over 5000 track miles on my FC with both a N/A 2 rotor and an LS1. The car itself has been nearly flawless and it is pretty much a dedicated track car. We had a couple engine electronics gremlins with the rotary, and have had no problems with the LS1.

We went through the suspension and brakes when the car was purchased and drove it with the rotary until it blew a coolant seal, then swapped in an LS1.

Honestly if you keep up with maintenence either car will be fine. FDs are more expensive generally. I just give my FC a good once over before every track day, but all I seem to burn up are tires and brakes.

Tanj!

iTrader: (5)

My 2 cents... I've been running the grid for Apex Driving Academy for 8 years now at Motorsports Ranch. From the sounds of it you will either be tracking at MSR or Eagles Canyon. I'm also assuming you're talking about doing HPDEs not SCCA or NASA racing.

Miatas are the primary cars that our instructors drive. At least a third of them use it as their track car and at least half of them have owned one as a track car in the past. When people ask us about what is a good dedicated track car our recommendations are Miatas, C5/C6 Vettes, S2000s, and Boxters. All those cars meet various price points and HP numbers but are basically dead nuts reliable on the track, inexpensive to operate, and pretty much "right" straight from the factory.

Now having said all of this I'm building a FC HPDE car. Why? Because I don't exactly fit into a Miata. I'm 6'1" and all torso. In a stock NA Miata I can't close the driver's door because my knee is in the way. I do fit into a NB and NC but it's cramped. Once gutted things do get better but still not great. The FC (sans sunroof) is a much better fit for my height and has plenty of legroom if you're more of the leggy type.

Power wise the FC edges the Miata even with the extra weight of the FC but at strictly stock the two are very similar. The FC does have the potential for more power vs the Miata when equivalent modifications are done to the exhaust and intake (the FC technically doesn't need any intake work done). If you're willing to spring for a standalone down the road the FC completely blows the Miata away with stock engines.

In the handling department the FC wins out as well but I think you'll end up with more money into the suspension on the FC. By this time the entire suspension including all bushings will need to be replaced on the FC. Ball joints may also be due along with tie rods. The PS (if equipped) may need freshening as well. The FC also will need camber plates and preferably rear toe adjusters and individual wheel camber adjusters. Are they 100% needed no, but the performance gain AND tire wear benefits make them worth spending the money for.

In the stock braking department the FC wins as long as you've got the Turbo style 4 pot calipers. Brake upgrades for the Miata though aren't outrageously expensive however.

Consumables (tires, brake pads, and rotors) for the two cars will be pretty similar with the Miata winning out due to it's super abundance and frequent ability to not have to brake going into a turn.

The biggest question mark against the FC though is ultimately how well it was maintained before you bought it. NA rotaries can be very reliable high mileage engines if some simple maintenance is done on a regular maintenance. The problem is the american public just doesn't do that. Should the engine give up the ghost you've got a 1500 to 2000 engine overhaul sitting in front of you or on a search for a new 700 to 800 running motor swap. If the Miata lump pushes up daises it's a much cheaper rebuild or finding a running used engine.

There are some other misc things that I like on the FC over the Miata. You can play with the gearing a bit more on the FC than the Miata and really improve it's trackability by doing so. For example swapping the miata transmission guts into the FC tranny and swapping in the 4.30 (or 4.88/5.12 if you're mr money bags) ring and pinion. The factory S4 clutch type LSD is an excellent HPDE diff but the Miata Torsen units are very good too and are suitable for HPDE stuff but not racing. Units are swappable between both cars are they both use the same 7.2" diff.

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

I'm curious as to why you feel the FC has better handling capabilities than the Miata. I don't necessarily have much track experience with them both but having owned both I felt my Miata could handle much better than my FC out of the box. And I've heard that with a decent set of coilovers, rubber, and alignment on the miata the handling improves far greater. Also it's double wishebone vs macpherson. Just curious if you could explain that a little more?

wrankin

Very interesting conversation. I would also like to hear more about the FC v. Miata handling comparison. To me the Miata (NA) always felt like a go-cart on steroids where handling was concerned.

Don't get me wrong - I have a track-only NA FC and absolutely *love* it. It's not a looker ("all business" was how I believe Fritz referred to it, and he was being kind ) but change her fluids occasionally, put a tank full of 87 octane in her, a splash of 2-stroke and she's the flippin' Energizer Bunny of track cars.

My opinion (it's worth every cent it costs, and you know it's free ) -

1) If you are 6' or shorter and want an absolutely fantastic car to really learn how to drive, a Miata is an excellent choice. It's reasonable to maintain and setting it up for the track is cookbook at this point. It's a momentum car and that will force you to be smooth and consistent. Driving a Miata well will make you a good driver, period. You may eventually get tired of not being able to pass 80% of the other cars on the track ("lift, damn you, lift!!") at which point you can probably sell the car for as much as you bought it for.

2) If you absolutely love the sound, smell, feel, sight and taste of the rotary and want a good introductory track car, an NA FC is a great option. Almost as cookbook a setup as the Miata (FCs were one of *the* cars to have in SCCA ITS for quite a while) but with slightly more horses. Reliability is excellent and as was mentioned earlier you can always pillage dead Miatae for things like Torsen LSDs and better tranny ratios.

3) If you love the rotary (see #2) and wanna "Flog it like Fritz"(TM), I would skip the turbo FC and go straight to the FD. By the time you've factored in the costs of prepping and maintaining that level of performance, there is no effective price difference between the two. Plus the FD is a prettier car.

4) If I were shopping today, loved the rotary but didn't quite want to take the leap to the full track demon, I would buy an RX-8. Great chassis, stockish FD levels of performance on the track, reasonably reliable and fairly comfortable as a daily. A great transitional car.

5) Here is the sad admission - if I wanted the "best-bang-for-the-buck, don't care who makes it nor the stereotypes of the people who drive it, I just wanna go insanely fast in something I really don't care much about" car, I would go find a cheap, used Vette.

So there you go.

Good luck,

-bill

SHPNOUT

iTrader: (3)

Step right up to a Spec Miata. 90 and 91's are going CHEAP at 7-9k for a strong car. It's great starting point to develop skills and gain experience safely and affordably.

No question here. Miata trumps all on performance to dollars.

The cool factor may not be there but at track days when your ******* a hi dollar car in the corners with your Spec Miata, you'll feel pretty cool.

PM if your interested in understanding true costs associated with racing an FD.

agershon

iTrader: (1)

I've owned both an NA Miata and an FC as track cars, and Tanj! and Wrankin have nailed everything on the head. I'm not quite 6', but found I would need a custom cage to get sufficient clearance.

Plus I got a fully caged and sorted FC for about half what a Spec Miata is going for.

They are both great on the track, but let's be honest ... the Miata is a freaking go cart. The FC handles really damn well, but it's not as settled and "quiet" during transitions as the Miata.

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

After reading some of these responses I really should have put more time into refreshing and modifying the suspension on my FC, cuz it just handled like poo. Significantly worse than even my DD Saturn. How do you guys who track your FCs compare to the s2000 on the track?

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

That's kind of mixing apples and oranges together. The FC is an 80's designed car with the S2000 being a 90's designed car. You have a decade of knowledge and technology differences there. The S2000 would be better compared (handling wise) to the FD3S.

Having said that, you can likely buy a FC, beef up the suspension to be competitive towards a Honda S2000 cheaper than buying a S2000. S2000's still sell quite well so you could likely also find a IT prepped FC cheaper than a stock S2000.

If you are considering a S2000, there is a NASA TTC prepped one for sale at a great price right now:

IL:TTC/B Prepped 00' Ap1 - S2KI Honda S2000 Forums

wrankin

The quick and dirty summary of what needs to be done:

https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tec.../#post11483645

There is always some tuning and tweaking involved. Dialing out that last bit of unwanted understeer is a bit of a challenge, but it can be done.

As mentioned earlier, the better comparison would be S2000 v. FD.

A quick google pointed me to Rob Robinette's page (well known FD guy) and as expected, he has excellent information on both the FD and S2000.

Track S2000

Hope this helps,

-b

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

To answer your question.. The s2000 will walk a typical well prepped HPDE NA FC on the straights.. You'll be able to hang with or be slightly faster in the corners though. The typical NA FC just needs more power.

With a lightly modded turbo II you'd be right there with them on the straights.

With V8 power they just disappear.. My FC runs with or better than C6 z06s on equal tires at track events.

Tanj!

iTrader: (5)

wrankin's first post is right on the money. couldn't agree more with all his points.

First off let me say that you really can't go wrong with a Miata as a first time HPDE car as long as you feel comfortable sitting in one (i.e. it starts getting dicey for people at the 6' mark). It does drive like a go cart and is a predicable car at it's limits. Being a momentum car you will become an amazing driver but you are going to get passed, often and riding people's bumpers in the corners.

On to the handling debate: A caged prepped spec miata is an amazing thing to drive. It is the proverbial go cart on wheels and probably the better handler compared to a caged FC. A HPDE prepped car has many of those same qualities but it lacks one very important bit, the cage. The miata being a convertible is a bit floppy in the chassis flex department. And in a well prepped HPDE car you can feel it. For me at the same level of HPDE prep the FC is the better handling car despite the natural under steer in the chassis due to the semi-trailing arms. This is primarily because the FC is a much stiffer car (assuming you still have your "frame rails" intact and not all crushed from improper jacking). At the limits you're fighting the chassis less and letting the suspension do it's job. Both cars are pretty consistent and predictable to their limits. The FC maybe a tad less so as the rear end can sometimes want to come around but that's often a setup issue. Also the stiffer your setup (delrin/solid bushings, high rate springs/sways) the more pronounced the flex in the miata vs the FC will become. Now I'm making these comparisons with these assumptions - cars have all polyurethane or better bushings, front and rear strut tower braces, and equivalent shocks springs (konis yellows or something simliar), and OE calipers w/ track appropriate pads. As I mentioned earlier you're going to spend more on the FC to get it to that level mainly because everything needs to be replaced and there is a fair bit of it and you need some fidley $$ bits to help tame some of the disadvantages of the semi-trailing arm design. But the amount of money extra isn't exorbitant (thank you drifters) and well within the pricing difference between a starting FC and starting Miata.

One thing I do want to add to wrankin's 5th point about best bang for the buck. He's dead on that a C5 or C6 corvette is the absolute sweet spot if you can afford the initial buy in and consumables (tires being the biggest). But the miata has one advantage. It's a good growing car if you're mechanically inclined. It's very simple to force induct a Miata with off the shelf reliable turbo and supercharger kits. When you're little miata is putting out 230 to 250 hp they can quickly become the dominate car on the track. For under 10k all in you can have a very reliable turbo miata that just eats everything.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

Yes, you can do this with any small/cheap car. However, it gets increasingly hard to put the power down to the ground with these small cars. The larger cars like Vettes and Vipers were design from the beginning to hold that type of power so are at a distinct disadvantage trying to put down bigger power with a smaller car. The S2000 guys fight this trying to run their FI cars in the higher TT/race groups which have Vettes and Vipers. Ever seen the video of the 400hp Lotus Elise?

IMO, when/if someone is looking for more a lot more power out of a smallish track car, they should just buy a new platform which can suit the higher power unless they are ready to do some re-engineering.

eage8

iTrader: (9)

In reality at any level of HPDE it has more to do with driver skill than it does with the car involved...

The last HPDE I did, in advanced group, I passed a well prepped miata, an s2000 CR, and walked away from my friend's FD..... in my corolla on street tires.

sure if they track has a long straight a fast car will catch back up a bit.

driver skill separates cars far more than suspension design deficiencies...

the most important part of a track car is reliability. which is why I would hesitate to recommend a turbo rotary... I've been attempting to get my TII track ready for years fairly unsuccessfully. It just runs too hot. I have way more fun in the corolla which I can hammer on for 30 minute sessions and the temperature gauge doesn't move.

Tanj!

iTrader: (5)

I do agree with you that high power small cars can be a challange but mid 200's in a Miata isn't radical power. Remember Mazda released the Mazdaspeed with 178. Our driving school has a few turbo miatas that get used as rentals and are owned by the school owners. I've driven them a few times as has many others. I've never had an issue putting power down with these cars nor have I ever seen anyone else complain. Granted they are basically Spec Miatas with a turbo kit on them. So that means caged and with slicks. But we do have students and an instructor or two with more HPDE oriented forced induction miatas and they don't seem to struggle. Most are going to be running slicks though as they are advanced drivers.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I just point it out as you mentioned the earlier remark around the C5/C6 Vettes, then began to mention about adding FI to a Miata. An equally setup C5/C6 is still going to be faster than a FI Spec Miata with equal drivers. For HPDE, that's a good option. I actually did a check-ride for a turbo Miata at Heartland Park, and it was a fun car.

If someone is eventually looking to get into Time Trials, it's a decent option as long as they don't try to increase the power-to-weight ratio too much (i.e. don't go into the TT1/2/3/U groups in NASA). I've seen a few re-engineered high powered Miatas competing in the upper TT groups, and a LOT of effort went into building them. It's always possible, but most people don't have the resources and knowledge to make a car transition in that way.

LargeOrangeFont

iTrader: (7)

I will add that a well sorted, basic LS1 swapped FC is a cheap c5 z06/c6 alternative for HPDE stuff. It will be just as fast, if not faster with similar drivers/tires.

I think it does kind of screw you for some forms of organizes competition though.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

my friend has a 340rwhp miata, and its retarded, it will smoke a viper in the turns, and in the straights, however it also cost the same, they had a bunch of teething problems, and then durability is probably better in the viper, even though the miata did about 3 years, @50 weekends a year in track days, which is pretty good.

Mahjik

iTrader: (1)

I don't necessarily want to turn this into a bench racing thread, but I don't think your buddy is running against prepped Vipers. We have a Lotus Elise which is TT1 prepped, likely a little better power to weight ratio than your buddy's Miata and there are tracks where the Vipers are still faster:

BOE Fabrication - Lotus Elise, Exige, and Evora Performance ECM Tuning Products

Again, yes you can turn a small car into a beast to compete with the big engines. However, it take quite a bit of engineering to do so which most normal folk don't have.