Race Car Tech Discuss anything related to road racing and auto X.

Proposed SCCA Rule Change (long)

Old 12-07-02, 07:41 PM
  #1  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Proposed SCCA Rule Change (long)

Guys I am going to write a letter to the SCCA board and see if I cannot change the rules reguarding the computer. I am asking for your feedback so I can address all issues before submitting letter. This is kind of long, but if you want to read here is my argurment in short. Any feedback would be appreciated.

According to current SCCA rules your boost can legally go up if it is the result of a legal modification. In SP and above the following are allowable.

Exhaust - Open, Intake - Open, Fuel - Open, ignition - open. It is completly legal to manipulate the fuel and ignition via computer system.

As we all know, if we do the above the car will boost up high enough to hit the fuel cut on the stock computer. And as we know if we keep hitting the fuel cut, we will blow the apex seals. My request is to allow the Power FC (Fuel Computer). Tecnically the PFC manipulates the fuel and ignition. We cannot manually turn up the boost. However if we do the above mods we could run high boost and still not blow our motor. The PFC is a divice that allows us to manipulate the allowable mods and that is it. As far as boost all it really does is take away the stock computer fuel cut and allow the motor to do what it wants. We can even show the computer settings to the tech inspector prior to the race and then give him our commander and have him tape the plug in for it. That way ensuring nothing is done during the event.

Tri Point runs a mo-tec and extra injectors and that is legal. Yes I do know what the motec can do, however that is legal. So the motec is supposedly used for fuel and ignition manipulation, while supposedly maintaining the factory fuel cut.

Does it make sense to allow us all the mods to increase power, yet still cut us off at the knees at the stock level of boost. So in reality, did really gain the improvements from the legal mods?

So again my argument is this. If I increase the boost from legal modifications, and I put in a PFC, why not make it legal. It only allows manipulation of the fuel and ignition.

Any feed back is appreciated. I need to have the letter in, in January to see if it can fly.
Spank is offline  
Old 12-07-02, 07:59 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Washington
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If it only manipulates the fuel and ignition then why is it illegal and also why would you need them to tape it?
Rs4Racer is offline  
Old 12-07-02, 08:31 PM
  #3  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why is PFC Not Allowed

PFC is not allowed because it completly replaces the stock ECU. Additionally the PFC does away with the fuel cut.

My argument is the PFC is just more effecient and a better computer than the old stock one. Additionally doing away with the Fuel Cut only helps because of the legal mods performed puts the motor in a position to blow rather quickly.
Spank is offline  
Old 12-07-02, 11:12 PM
  #4  
WWFSMD
10 Year Member
 
maxcooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,035
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
The PowerFC also controls boost. Can you use a fuel-cut defenser and an RRFPR?

-Max
maxcooper is offline  
Old 12-07-02, 11:14 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
CarmonColvin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Helena, Al
Posts: 446
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Removal of fuel cut in SP for turbo cars has been argued for many years. It will probably never happen. The SCCA knows that removing that rule can give some turbo cars an extra 10, 20, 30, 40, 50+ hp that cannot be made up for on the N/A cars.

Besides... For Solo II the money would be better spent developing the suspension and buying new tires.
CarmonColvin is offline  
Old 12-09-02, 02:20 AM
  #6  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think the point being made is in Street Prepared class you're allowed almost all the other bolt-ons ... which will induce a fuel cut. Knowing that this has a cumulative damaging effect, the SCCA might be persuaded into encompassing full standalone units in SP. Although, I thought ECU replacement was legal in SP.

Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, alternate computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injection is allowed. Direct turbocharger boost control by alternate computer control is not, since there is no equivalent mechanical allowance.

It's the boost control functions of the PFC that make it illegal, I thought. I could see just handing a tech the unplugged Commander as a failsafe, but that would seemingly require too much work on the SCCA's behalf. I agree with your comments, Spank ... I just think you'll be fighting an uphill battle.

maxcooper, you can run a RRFPR. However, the fuel cut defencer is illegal.

Turbochargers may not be added, changed or modified. Turbocharger and supercharger systems may only be updated/backdated with the accompanying engine unit. No changes are allowed to waste gates, pressure sensors or their location, and to other turbocharger or supercharger boost limiting systems. This allowance does not permit changes to blow-off (pop-off) valves. Devices known as "fuel cut defensers", and any modifications which alter or defeat the fuel cutoff when it is activated by boost level, are not permitted.

Of course there's the other option ... just unplug the Commander for events and don't tell anyone (yeah, yeah ... cheater this, cheater that). Although, it probably won't help you that much; especially when all the ASP Z06's get sorted out this year and next.
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 12-11-02, 05:01 PM
  #7  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks for feed back

Thanks for your feed back. My argument is all the other mods are allowed. On a NA car they will result in a large hp gain, not on ours because of the FC. We put our selves in a position to blow the motor because of allowable mods.

I will try to get the rule changed. I am fairly certain they will not allow it. The reason I honestly believe they will not allow it is because.

If you allow us to run 14-17 or more lbs of boost will be making some big power. Then in prepared class with gear changes will will stomp cars.

How many of us are their in compared to the corvette owners? They will always vote in favor of the mass corvette owners.

Good picture MAX
Spank is offline  
Old 12-12-02, 10:58 AM
  #8  
trying to build a racecar
 
Travis R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Austin, Tx.
Posts: 579
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
We lost a couple posts the other day and I don't really feel like typing the whole thing out again, but here's the jist of what I suggested.
Like you said they probably won't change the rule. Mainly because there is no similar mod available for the N/A folks.
But you don't have to let the car hit the fuel cut. Someone on here (forgot the name) knows at what RPM and boost level the fuel cut kicks in. With a stand alone ECU you can program the car to stay off of the fuel cut, since you have complete control over fuel and spark (aside from the stock ECU controlling the fuel cut of course). By pulling back the timing and adding more fuel you can create a soft rev limiter with no damage to the seals. In essence you are trying to get the car to stay just in front of the fuel cut at all RPMs.
Sure you probably won't make as much power as if you allowed it to boost to 15 psi, but it would be pretty reliable. And with all the other mods allowed in SP you could probably get the torque band to fatten up.
Good luck.
Travis R is offline  
Old 12-12-02, 02:43 PM
  #9  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
THANKS!

Great info Travis. I think that is what Tri-Point does but I am not sure.

I appreciate your response and that may be what I have to do.

Allan
Spank is offline  
Old 12-12-02, 02:52 PM
  #10  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't think that retarding the timing is going to help limit the boost though. The fuel cut is based solely off of peak boost pressure ... in fact, the aftermarket ECU's (like the PFC) still have this problem if you set the peak boost limit too low. It's an inherent problem to freeing up the exhaust. And, in regards to changing the fuel cut setpoint, well .. you're still changing/adding a fuel cut defencer. Again, not technically legal.

The only other way I see of combatting the fuel cut problem is by using a boost controller to regulate the pre-control actuator line pressure ... which is also illegal in Street Prepared. It really puts you in between a rock and a hard place: do the right thing, be safe, and play with the big boys in BP or SM2 -OR- run with the fuel cut problems and risk going through an apex seal or two every season. Sucks big donkey ***** ...

Last edited by redrotorR1; 12-12-02 at 02:56 PM.
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 12-16-02, 02:57 PM
  #11  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hey Red Rotor

Upon further investigation, I really feel that the rule board may change the rules. Look at it this way, Non-turbo-ed cars such as the Corvette, Ferrari, Porsche, if you run full race exhaust, any injector size or carborator, and any intake you want, if you allow them to upgrade the ECU they will have a big increase in power. Yet if we run full exhaust, intake, did we gain any power? You know the mods allowed, all we can do is spool quicker, and keep the mixture cool. Without more boost we gain more power.

I just spoke to Superchips. Yes I know what people think about them. However most people do know who they are. They are going to give me a listing of the cars in our class how much hp they can gain with an upgraded ECU if they have full exhaust, intake and or bigger injectors or carb.

Look at us, 255 hp at the crank when new. With all our mods we just hit the fuel cut quicker. No hp gain just quicker spool up. However all the other cars get big gains. Is not the purpose of the rules to create equal competitors within a class?

I am crossing my fingers. If they do not allow it I will either run a Haltech or Motec in conjunction with our stock ECU, since that is allowed.

Do you agree with my reasoning? I bet if they allow the PFC then more guys will race in our class with the 7 and they will be running the PFC.

Where are you at? What region do you race in?
Spank is offline  
Old 12-16-02, 09:35 PM
  #12  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, the bolt-ons do actually increase HP. The full exhaust alone should be good for an additional 30-40HP. And with IC's and fuel stuff unrestricted, your argument is not really going to hold much water. Realistically speaking, a fully setup AND tuned ASP RX-7 should be able to make 350RWHP pretty easily. With all the suspension allowables, that should be more than enough for an RX-7 to be competitive. My concern is for the car's health.

I'm sure the SCCA has been approached about this numerous times. I get the feeling that the 3rd gen RX-7 has gotten black-flagged somehow; and the SCCA is not going to budge on this issue. I'm not a real ***** about the rules ... simply because I think SoloII is really about the driver, more than it is the car. Even in Street Prepared and beyond.

So, here's my take ... unless you think you're going to compete at Nationals, do what you want and see if it will pass tech. I'm not saying run your ASP car in SS and wax everybody locally ... now that I'd have a problem with. But little stuff like boost control in a ECU or silicone vacuum hoses ... that stuff should slide IMO. For the FD's case, you really aren't going to see any significant benefit from an extra 1-2 psi in 2nd gear alone. However, if you are THAT good, and do compete at Nationals ... it becomes a farce. The littlest thing can spark up a protest and suddenly you're DQ'd. In the end, it's about YOU having fun ... and since most experienced auto-x'ers know what a programmable ECU is and what it's capable of, I personally think that it won't make headlines among most of the local clubs.

Oh, BTW, I run in central Texas area. I kinda sucked this year ... my race rubber funds got depleted when the turbos died.
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 12-17-02, 07:04 AM
  #13  
Junior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Spank,

I moved from SS to AP this year at the beginning of the season, completely skipping the ASP group. The reason I moved was the PFC and boost issue discussed above. The last 2 years have netted me 2-second place in class (SS 2001 and AP 2002). Currently in the Steel Cities Region (Pittsburgh PA) there are 4 third gens and a Ferrari on race slicks running AP. I am not sure what your reluctance to move to AP is. Although your car is not prepared to edge of the rules (Ported .....), I'm sure it is still competitive in regional AP classes. If it is not consider yourself the underdog. By the way, I do crank the boost up on my third and fourth runs and it appears to help as my times continue to fall.

Tom
Tom Delegram is offline  
Old 12-18-02, 06:06 PM
  #14  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
350 RWHP on stock boost

Originally posted by redrotorR1
Well, the bolt-ons do actually increase HP. The full exhaust alone should be good for an additional 30-40HP. And with IC's and fuel stuff unrestricted, your argument is not really going to hold much water. Realistically speaking, a fully setup AND tuned ASP RX-7 should be able to make 350RWHP pretty easily. With all the suspension allowables, that should be more than enough for an RX-7 to be competitive. My concern is for the car's health.

I'm sure the SCCA has been approached about this numerous times. I get the feeling that the 3rd gen RX-7 has gotten black-flagged somehow; and the SCCA is not going to budge on this issue. I'm not a real ***** about the rules ... simply because I think SoloII is really about the driver, more than it is the car. Even in Street Prepared and beyond.

So, here's my take ... unless you think you're going to compete at Nationals, do what you want and see if it will pass tech. I'm not saying run your ASP car in SS and wax everybody locally ... now that I'd have a problem with. But little stuff like boost control in a ECU or silicone vacuum hoses ... that stuff should slide IMO. For the FD's case, you really aren't going to see any significant benefit from an extra 1-2 psi in 2nd gear alone. However, if you are THAT good, and do compete at Nationals ... it becomes a farce. The littlest thing can spark up a protest and suddenly you're DQ'd. In the end, it's about YOU having fun ... and since most experienced auto-x'ers know what a programmable ECU is and what it's capable of, I personally think that it won't make headlines among most of the local clubs.

Oh, BTW, I run in central Texas area. I kinda sucked this year ... my race rubber funds got depleted when the turbos died.
Red who do you know personally that puts that kind of power out with stock boost. Cam Worth at Pettit built my motor specifically for racing. As you can see by my sig I have no where near that power. It is impossible to get that kind of power or anywhere near it without really increasing the boost. Remember with the mods except the IC all we do is free up the car to make more boost, thus more power. Keeping boost at stock levels will not really increase our power. Ok we may get some, however it is only slightly. IMO most guys that talk about all the power they have, have not had their cars on the dyno. I do not know what kind of power you have but I have far less than that. Even at sea level I have less than that even at my crank.

Anyway, after looking at the rules, in Prepared class the turbo or supercharger is unlimited so the PFC will be ok for the class. I do however still plan on writting to the board.

Sorry to hear about your rubber funds. Without good rubber nothing happens. However in case you are interested I will be selling 2 sets of rubber this year. Both are 275/40/17. One set are Kumoh's the other are Hoosiers with 3 different auto crosses on them. I will be going to 16x12 with slicks. Hopefully everyone is right when they say the slicks will grip far more than anything else I have used.

Hey, I appreciate your feedback and hope you do well this year.
Spank is offline  
Old 12-18-02, 06:16 PM
  #15  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
AP Class

Originally posted by Tom Delegram
Spank,

I moved from SS to AP this year at the beginning of the season, completely skipping the ASP group. The reason I moved was the PFC and boost issue discussed above. The last 2 years have netted me 2-second place in class (SS 2001 and AP 2002). Currently in the Steel Cities Region (Pittsburgh PA) there are 4 third gens and a Ferrari on race slicks running AP. I am not sure what your reluctance to move to AP is. Although your car is not prepared to edge of the rules (Ported .....), I'm sure it is still competitive in regional AP classes. If it is not consider yourself the underdog. By the way, I do crank the boost up on my third and fourth runs and it appears to help as my times continue to fall.

Tom
Tom send me a personal msg with your phone so I can call. I am going to Prepared this year. I would like to talk to you about the rules.

I have won my region since 1999, however as you well know winning in a region is far diff than the nationals.
My mods for this year other than on my sig will be the following.

Replacing rear window with lexian and metal with fiberglass from Pettit. Cam, said the rear weighs about 100 lbs, so I should save about 80 lbs or so I hope. Take out both seats (50-60lbs total) and put in one light weight one(15). Fuel cell and only run a couple of gallons vs a full tank (7lbs x 12 = 84lbs saved), will run 4.77 gears with fully tuned PFC.

Hoping with taking out 150 lbs or more, changing gears, and tuning the car to its optimum should make a big diff. Also replacing control arm bushings with very stiff stuff to help turning precision. Cam at Pettit said that he did not feel that I need to go with bigger injectors or any of that stuff. For autox he felt the stock stuff would be fine.

I would like to talk to you about boost. The rules say the turbo and supercharger are unrestricted, so does that mean the boost can be whatever we want?

Let me know your phone so we can talk.

Thanks

Allan
Spank is offline  
Old 12-19-02, 06:38 AM
  #16  
Junior Member
5 Year Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
-Spank,

You can usually find me at my office (412) 967-8294. If I am not there leave me a message and I will get back to you. We have three buildings at my company; I usually end up in the building with Senior Management (although I'm not and my office is in an other building). Regarding your boost question, I interpret the rules in the following manner:
ASP, my car is completely legal to run ASP except for the alterable boost (via PFC). Since I can increase boost I am required to run AP. Usually I will run 12 pounds on my first two runs and turn the boost up to 15 pounds. In addition, I also crank up the duty cycle on the waste gate to give me faster spool up, at the expense of boost creep. I am running all the standard bolt ons (see my profile), and am not worried too much about creep or even boost spike. I think you should reconsider fuel upgrades, and possibly M2 twins (faster Spool up). If I am not mistaken, AP was won by a Sunbeam tiger this year (second place also). These are small British roadsters with American V-8's, allot of torque and low-end power. Call me I am spending too much time typing.

Tom
Tom Delegram is offline  
Old 12-19-02, 11:15 AM
  #17  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Re: 350 RWHP on stock boost

Originally posted by Spank

Red who do you know personally that puts that kind of power out with stock boost ......
That obviously would be for non-stock boost. Personally saw it done at 16psi on an ASP racecar ... albeit a re-programmed ECU (G-tech). The driver never went to Nationals, but I don't think he would've had any problems at tech or by protest.

At any rate, if you're accepting the bump up to Prepared, why not run in SM2? Seems like it will be a fun class and you'll have more competition. All Street Touring and Street Prepared modifications are allowed, and engines are restricted to displacement. Rotary vehicles must be less than 1.5L, and FD's must meet an minimum 2200 lbs requirement. Cabin interior must be retained ... i.e. the rear seats and back can be gutted. Rear hatch must be retained also. It was a provisional class this year, and should be recognized at Nationals next year. I'm thinking I might go that route instead.
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 12-19-02, 12:15 PM
  #18  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hey Red, 16psi is some big boost and some big power. Let me quote what Gary Thomason told me this year when I competed against him in ASP. "there is no way a RX7 can legally beat me" I believe he may be right. He has a fully sorted car and an outstanding driver. Trust me when I tell you that if they saw 16lbs and he won at a National event in ASP either Scotty White, or Gary Thomason would protest. Since the stock fuel cut has been changed the car would be disqualified. However that is my point about the rules, we should be allowed to use a diff ECU.

SM 2 will be a good class, however it still seems that the way for me is AP. I have to admit though I have not looked at the rules that carefully. I guess I should really look at the rules for SM2. Where are they, I have the 2002 Rule book, is there more than in that book?

Plus, I really feel that there will be some really big money cars in that class. For me if I could do that class I could run my 17x10 ccw wheels with slicks instead of having to by 16x12 just for the class.

Any feed back from you would be appreciated. I will look at the rules for SM2 before I commit. Thanks for the advice.

Allan
Spank is offline  
Old 12-19-02, 12:56 PM
  #19  
LS6 Convert
5 Year Member
 
redrotorR1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,827
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That's a pretty bold statement. I'm sure there are a few ASP RX-7 drivers that would take offense to that statement. I think an RX-7 won nationals in ASP either last year or the year before. I wish I could personally step up to the challenge ... but, I still have some room for improvement. As far as the rule book for SM2, just use the Street Modified section for reference. It's basically the same rules with the exceptions being the displacement and weight restrictions. Also, the Mouton website is a good reference:
http://mouton.best.vwh.net/sccasolo/

But, yes, it does seem like the big-money class. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will turn out next year. There's a big following locally ... toughest competition being those turbo Miatas. Your 17x10's are legal in every class besides stock ... are you worried about the fender rub and clearance? And if you're going with a different set of wheels ... you plan on selling those CCW's? (Sorry, off-topic.)
redrotorR1 is offline  
Old 12-20-02, 05:03 PM
  #20  
mythical Unicorn
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
wheels

If I do AP or BP then I will be running 16x12. If I do SM2 then it has been suggested that I run 315/30/18. So currently it looks like I will be selling a few items.

I have 4 275/40/17 Kumo Ectsa the late release run that is much better than the Victor Racers that I used before. I used them for about 6 race days.

I will have a set of 275/40/17 Hoosier autocross tires that I used for 3 race days.

Then the silver 17x10 ccw wheels. I do not have a problem with clearance but your lips have to be turned in. After that you will not have a problem with these, they have the correct offset.

If you want to see what my car and wheels look like look at Sport Compact cover with Wolfgang Hoek's car on it. It was the one that the voted as the best handling car. Guys in the club called me and asked me if my car was on the cover. They look identical, only diff between his and mine is a little better suspension and more power.

I do not know know for sure what size wheels and tires I will run yet. If I change I do not know what to ask for the wheels. I know a guy just sold his for $800 or $900 with some damage and some Hoosiers on them. If I do sell my wheels they will be about $900 to $1,000 then about $400 for the hoosiers and about $400 for the Kumoh's. New as you know the hoosiers are $280 each and the Kumoh's are $140.

If I had to guess what I am leaning toward at this time for class it looks like I may actually do SM2 if it is a National Class. If not then I will do AP or BP because I want to get contingency money from Mazda.

Allan
Spank is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
stickmantijuana
Microtech
30
04-23-16 06:37 PM


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: Proposed SCCA Rule Change (long)


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: