s1mpsons

iTrader: (5)

For anybody familiar with MSNE's autox program, you may have come to recognize there is a certain level of bias against all cars turbocharged. I tend to think it has a lot to do with managing members of the organization who are the most active want to be more competitive. For those of you who don't know:

"The Motorsports NE Club (formerly known as the M Club) was founded almost a decade ago... Since 2006, as the result of the M Club merger with the NASA-X program (formerly part of the NASA NE), the new Motorsports NE Club was formed, joining enthusiastic forces of two organizations into one."

Rules and classifications for MSNE competitors and cars can be found here: http://www.motorsportsne.com/2006/ru...s2006_0517.htm
Rules and classifications for NASA-X competitors and cars can be found here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/n...ses_update.pdf

If you were to read into the MSNE rules you would see that class bumps are issued for every modification 20 points. Modifications points are assessed for the following:

-Intercooler +20 points
-Fuel System Modification +20 points for 2wd, +40 points for AWD (+0 for N/A vehicles!!!!!)
-ECU/Chip/Boost Controller +20 points for 2wd, +40 points for AWD (+0 for N/A vehicles!!!!!)
-Exhaust Modification (excluding cat-back) +20 points (only +10 point for N/A)
-Air Intake Modifications (excluding airbox to throttle body) +20 points (only +10 point for N/A)

So lets take an example here. Lets pick two cars starting off in C class (meaning approximately equal performance), say 2005 GTO and a 1993 RX7. For both cars add on header-back exhaust, any and all possible fuel moditifications (line, pump, injectors, etc...), and a chip/ecu. The RX7 will be bumped up in class three times C-B-A-U (or Unlimited, meaning anything pretty much goes) and the GTO gets to stay put in C class and run against stock RX7's. So one would say, "but wait, I thought they were put in the same class to begin with because there performance was comparable? Now they are saying that the performance of such a modified GTO is comparable to a stock GTO." Something doesn't make sense. I understand turbo car react better to certain modifications then N/A cars, but I don't think N/A cars should be allowed so many "free" modifications (like ECU and Fuel!). Please weight in here.

Also, I do not know the extend to which NASA-X classing is used throughout the country. However, my thoughts are that the intention of creating these rules and having so many different NASA sub-organizations running autox all over the country NASA had intended on creating a national campaign/championship similar to SCCA. If NASA expects this to happen, they need to ensure that all organizations using the same rules and classification system.

I would like to see the adoption of the NASA-X rules by MSNE. Partially because I feel MSNE's rules are bias and partially because I think a nationally syncronized program would create more competition, more awareness, and eventually a national championship. I believe rx7club member, 2MCHPWR (Scott), is on the classification and rules committee with MSNE. Perhaps he would like to weight in here. Maybe even bring this up to the committee. (note: engine swaps, like Scott's LS RX7, immediately bump the car to Unlimited)

Thanks.

s1mpsons

iTrader: (5)

Here is what MSNE replied after I recommended they adopt NASA-X rules:

"NASA-X rules were drafted from the original M-Club (now MSNE) rules back in ‘00 and were adopted for the National application, under the NASA NE cover. Since that time, NASA NE was purchased by PDA, and NASA NE-atox program came back under the MSNE management as part of the buy out agreement. Since that time I am in charge of NASA NE GTS race series as well as TT/ autox NE with NASA National office, working closely with Greg Greenbaum – the head of the TT/AUTOX program on the NASA National end of it. We have a panel of heads of the Regions discussing and negotiating the development of the National rules. Unfortunately, the progress stalled, since the National office can’t commit to the National Runoffs yet. The suggestion of using TT rules, is just for those regions, who don’t have the existing program. We are still convinced, that our rule set is better for autocross, and will continue to pursue those."

Roen

iTrader: (2)

All breathing mods impact turbo cars much more heavily than NA cars, you should know that.

Engine swaps are classed by power/weight range and then bumped up 1 class.

If my FC underwent an REW swap, I'd probably be put in class A. Power/weight would probably put me into Class B since I have an NA, and then bumped up one class to A.

How do we take advantage of the extra fuel being NA? You do realize that an exhaust on a turbo car will net you more than ecu + exhaust for NA cars of the same class? How would NA cars even use more fuel anyway? It's not like our injectors are maxed out even with ECU.

Besides, any programmable/piggyback ECU is a bump NA or turbo. Only chips are free for NA, but would you even want to use a chip for turbo?

If anything, MSNE is biased towards cars with more horsepower, judging by the layout of their courses.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

This should really be in NE section anyway.

If I modded my NA with a speed chip, would I even gain anything? maybe maybe not, point is, I can't have it tuned.

If I modded my NA with fuel pump, would I even gain anything? No, since I'm probably running rich already.

If I modded my NA with header-back, would I gain ancillary boost power that turbo cars get? Definitely not, since I don't have boost to begin with.

See the logic?

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

Jake is it?

I'm not sure I agree there is a bias against turbo cars.
1st and 2nd place in class A are turbo cars (STi and EVO). You won season points in this class? Congrats.
1st place in class B is turbo miata mazdaspeed edition factory turbo.
Almost every car except 1st place in class U is turbo'ed or supercharged.
If there was a bias, wouldn't the NA's car be placing higher than the ones I mentioned above?


A GTO with ECU tune and more fuel won't do anything to the car and it'll get killed by anything with R tires. A tune on an LSx motor gives 5 hp? Yeah, thats why there are no points levied against the NA cars for a ECU change. ECU and Fuel should be free to NA cars because they don't give a benefit by themselves. They will benefit when you add a cam, headers, better intake, ported heads, etc. which all those things add points.

But if you have a ECU change or tune with a boosted car, you can get a lot of power with no other changes.

In your example, you said add headers to the GTO and it'll stay in class C.
Headers = 10 points.
Intake = 10 pts.
So your GTO example just got bumped to class B. Not sure what the point is though because the FD will beat the GTO and isn't that the purpose of keeping them in different classes based on the mods you listed?

We are a local club so no national rules apply.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Besides, two of their drivers get the shaft then.

Scott is placed in class U, which he's happily whupping.

Don's in class B with his Mazdaspeed Miata, which he's also whupping.

The rest (Bob, Michelle, Ed, Rob) all drive Mustangs or Porsches and are competitive, but the turbo guys are still winning.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Scott:

When are 08 rules coming out? Can NA cars finally use reprogrammed ECU's or are we still restricted on speed chips only? (Thinking Rtek here)

I managed to sneak into 5th place F with that last autox.

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

we have a meeting on sunday so shortly after that but i don't see any major changes.

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

I hear MSNE really frowns against LS1 powered RX7s and makes the class winner blast Bon Jovi during the championship runs.

DriveFast7

iTrader: (1)

Wish there was NASA-X in southern california.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

SCCA isn't so bad, it's better for people with less power via PAX.

s1mpsons

iTrader: (5)

Thank you. I guess you're right. It works on an overall scale. I guess I am just upset that my near stock RX7 is in U class (namely for the pre-cat removal, boost controller-used to maintain OEM boost, and some other stuff I can't recall now). I know it would get hammered in U if I leave it as is. Oh well.

I was leaving out intake for this example.

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

no prob dude. i bet if you just got some extra wheels and put R compounds on them, you would do pretty well in U.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

You're in U????

For downpipe, boost controller and what else? Damn, that does kinda suck.

Think about it this way, now that you have downpipe, pre-silencer is free (I think, don't quote me on that, some guys there say no, Mike told me some cars, I don't really know to be sure)

Now that you have boost controller, standalone is free.

At least tires are free in MSNE.

s1mpsons

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, I can pretty much set the car up however I want once in U class. I think I was counting the SMIC I just got shipped to me. Between those 3 items thats 60 points! So, yea... U class.

I think some nice rubber would be my best bet.... And a standalone... Why the hell not?

Roen

iTrader: (2)

SMIC for FC or FD?

s1mpsons

iTrader: (5)

For my FD...

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Upgraded SMIC? Well, now that you've done that, FMIC/VMIC is free.