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Hoosier R6 vs. BFG R1

Old 02-25-09, 10:21 AM
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Hoosier R6 vs. BFG R1

I know both tires are good, But im looking for oppinions from people who have driven both. Ive been driving on victoracers for a long time now and need something better.

Who likes what and why?
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Old 02-25-09, 10:51 AM
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I've seen mixed reviews on the R1's. Some say they're basically as good as a Hoosier R6, other say they produced no better times that a Toyo T1s.
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Old 02-25-09, 02:06 PM
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If you take a look at which tire won more classes at the SCCA Runoffs and the NASA Championships, the choice is pretty obvious.
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Old 02-25-09, 02:37 PM
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^^^^

I think on outright speed for racing, the Hoo hoos are the ticket. Thing is though, those run off guys only use them for one day. Hoosiers drop off a bit after than, and don't last long after that.

If the BFGs were almost as quick (minus a national championship winning tenth or two), but were more consistent and lasted longer, that would be a nice trade off for DE/open tracking.
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Old 02-25-09, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post

...use them for one day. Hoosiers drop off a bit after than, and don't last long after that.
Very true. The 1st session on stickered Hoosiers is just awesome. After that, I can feel a drop off each heat cycle. Come the 6th session/heat cycle they are about done, maybe 8 sessions/heat cycles max usage here, one weekend is all I expect. I don't know how others use them longer than that. I have never heat cycled a Hoosier to make it supposedly last longer, maybe one day I'll find the time to try.
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Old 02-25-09, 04:53 PM
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^^

Just curiously, what do you find is the average drop off in times from day to day two, to dead?
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Old 02-25-09, 05:10 PM
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one of the local guys figures he can run his R6's for 6-7 heat cycles before they are on par with toyo RA1's.

My real problem is getting much real world info from guys running BFG R1's. the reviews on tire rack are only worth so much. And I cant think of any local guys that were running them.

My Ideal tire is going to last me the season, usually 7-8 days on the track and the tires usually stay hot all day. If its possible Id also like a tire thats forgiving at the limit.
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Old 02-25-09, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post
^^

Just curiously, what do you find is the average drop off in times from day to day two, to dead?
Tough to say in time increments, depends on track length. You'd see a bigger time gap on a longer track than a shorter track. Some of the tracks I am on are 1:23 laps and others 2:01 laps. You also have other factors such as track conditions, weather, etc. Too many variables to give a time estimate, but I can definately tell a difference as the sessions go on. The tires just don't stick like they did when new.

Originally Posted by fd_neal View Post
one of the local guys figures he can run his R6's for 6-7 heat cycles before they are on par with toyo RA1's.

My real problem is getting much real world info from guys running BFG R1's. the reviews on tire rack are only worth so much. And I cant think of any local guys that were running them.

My Ideal tire is going to last me the season, usually 7-8 days on the track and the tires usually stay hot all day. If its possible Id also like a tire thats forgiving at the limit.

I have ran RA1's before and that's not a bad way to put it, I'd agree with your local guy. Probably not much real world info on BFG as probably not a lot of guys using them. I'd like a tire like you are requesting, but that's asking a lot. I don't know how many sessions you do in a day, but if it's HPDE probably more than 2-3. The best bang for the buck tire was the RA1, offered the best in terms of value and life and grip. You might look into the R888 more, with what you want the R6 is not going to fit the profile.
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Old 02-25-09, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SCCAITS View Post
I have ran RA1's before and that's not a bad way to put it, I'd agree with your local guy. Probably not much real world info on BFG as probably not a lot of guys using them. I'd like a tire like you are requesting, but that's asking a lot. I don't know how many sessions you do in a day, but if it's HPDE probably more than 2-3. The best bang for the buck tire was the RA1, offered the best in terms of value and life and grip. You might look into the R888 more, with what you want the R6 is not going to fit the profile.
Thats good info, thanks. I know im asking a lot from a single set of tires, Im used to tires that are happy to last a season.

Typical event is 15 minute morning warmup and 3 10 minute hot sessions with ~30 min break between sessions. Usually unlimited lapping at the end of the racing, but I rarely head out for that.

One thing the tire rack reviews are saying about the R1 (if they are believeable) is that it has more consistant performance throught its life than the R6.

Im not interested in the R888, from what I understand they are the same compound as the RA1. Ive only driven on RA1's a couple of times, I did like them but they didnt really seem to give me much more than the victoracer in terms of grip.
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Old 02-25-09, 07:27 PM
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I've been running R1s on my FC for HPDE and like them quite a bit. I've never used the hoosiers so I can't compare, but the R1s don't seem to have lost too much grip over a season. I don't get to do as many events as I'd like though.
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Old 02-25-09, 07:33 PM
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Did some looking, R1 appears to do about double the heat cycles as the R6. The sacrifice looks like all out grip. Ill probably try it out, Id rather the tire last me the season...
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Old 02-25-09, 08:29 PM
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^^^

That's what I was alluding to. I'd give up "all out grip" if that means the R1 is essentially a Day 2 Hoosier for a significant period of time. What I don't want is essentially an R888 that doesn't last as long.
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Old 02-25-09, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post
^^^

That's what I was alluding to. I'd give up "all out grip" if that means the R1 is essentially a Day 2 Hoosier for a significant period of time. What I don't want is essentially an R888 that doesn't last as long.
As you said some people report them to be every bit as fast as the R6 and others not even close. I have to wonder why. Could it be quality control, driving style, suspension, air pressure? report is they are very pressure sensitive, off by more than 2-3psi and the tires act funny... I race with more than a few guys that are lucky to check their pressures once per day, gotta wonder if these are they guys that have poor luck with the R1's?
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Old 02-25-09, 10:46 PM
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I had been setting pressure on my R1s using pyrometer readings, and they would get hot within a lap and then be awesome for the first 2/3rd of a track session and then go to ****. A guy at an event I was at was running them on his 911, and he said a guy he talked to at BFG said to run them at 41psi hot and damn the pyrometer. After some experimenting I found a starting pressure that would get them there. They took longer to warm up, maybe 2 laps, but would stay consistent for the whole run.
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Old 03-16-10, 11:01 AM
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Modified magazine ran them for the whole 25 hours of thunderhill. Guess the defining review would be nurburgring
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Old 03-16-10, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rx7>rx8 View Post
Modified magazine ran them for the whole 25 hours of thunderhill. Guess the defining review would be nurburgring
By 'them' he means the R1 - just read the article myself.
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Old 03-20-10, 10:36 AM
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guess this came back from the dead. I ran the R1's last year 245/45/16 and hated them. I have 2 tracks near me; one is a proper roadcourse, old and worn but 1.9 miles with high speed corners and a 5/8mile straight. The other is a very well layed out largeish kart track. On the roadcourse the tires performed ok at best. Once I figured out the pressures and the tires were hot the grip was good but they never gave me good feel. On the kart track I could not get them hot enough to work. I think on a hot day the best I could do is 140* when the tire wants 170+... I was able to run better times on old victoracers on the kart track. Also they start to noticeably drop off after 5-6 heatcycles, so not as long lasting as many claim.

to sum up. I think the tires are too sensitive to pressure and heat, if either isnt where the tire likes it the tire wont work well. when pressure and heat is good the tires perform well but still lack good driver communication. I find my car is to easy on tires to really heat these things up, even at a 245 width. Im sure on a heavier car (mustang, M3) they would work better.
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Old 03-21-10, 07:28 AM
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Oh oh, I wish I saw this thread sooner. I track my car extensively, usually 15+ track days per summer including tracks like Mosport and Calabogie (only once here though, too far). I've used the old Toyo RA1's once, Hoosier R6 pretty extensively (at least 5 sets off the top of my head), and the the BFG R1's twice. I can say with absolute certainty that the BFG R1's are not in the same class in grip and predictability as the Hoosier R6's are. This is a message I sent to a race car driver who had inquired about the comparison of the two back in the winter of 08/09...

The BFG R1's just weren't right for me. I spent a whole day changing tire pressures trying to make the car feel balanced like they would with the Hoosiers but was unable to. First the car felt sloppy with the same pressures I would use on the Hoosiers (32 PSi all around on an average day, 31 PSi on a really hot day). So I thought maybe it needs more air, so I waited for it to cool and then increased pressures to 34 PSi all around. Then it oversteered more then usual so I decreased the rear pressure by a pound. Kinda fixed it but it still felt awkward and possibly oversteered still, decreased the rear again by another pound. Then that made it really bad, the car started to understeer now lol. So I decreased the front pressure by a pound. Felt better then all the previous settings but still not right. Thats what I can remember from my tweaking but I continued to play and the best I could find was a 33 front and a 32 rear. However it still does not feel
right. It's hard to explain, just the way the tires feel changing direction.
Going from that, I had only experienced the R1's once and to be honest I did not have the whole tire pressure thing completely figured out at the time and wasn't as serious about lap times either. Anyway, summer of 09 came and I was happier then pig and **** with my new turbo (500R-SP). Went through another set of Hoosiers while figuring out my tire pressures as well as improving myself and set a 1:32 at Mosport. I then decided to try the BFG R1's once again because they do seem to last longer. Easy to say I was disappointed once again and no matter what I did with the tire pressures, they would not come close to the R6's level of grip and smoothness. The way they transition from grip to slide is not smooth and very difficult to predict, almost as if its random. I quickly sold them once again and gave up on the BFG R1's for good. I will never use that tire ever again. I also have a 93 RX-7 buddy who tracks his car as well and has a lot more years experience them me (probably 20-30 years) and he tried the BFG R1's in 09 as well after being recommended by a fellow RX-7 racer (who happened to be the R1 dealer). He had the exact same experience, the tires just don't feel right, they do not perform the same not matter what he tried, period. I'm usually with him on his track days and I could see how frustrated he was with how the tires behaved. Also, every driver I personally talked to about the R1's that wasn't trying to sell them, did not like the R1's, was not impressed etc.. They aren't the same, no matter who tells you what, period.

Now, its true the BFG R1's last longer then the Hoosier R6's but in my personal opinion, its not worth it. Once you learn to not overheat the Hoosiers (figuring your hot pressures), they can last a lot longer then some people are led to believe. They also can maintain they're grip for extended periods if the pressures are set properly. They're a racing tire, not a street tire, you need to maintain equal hot pressure, not cold. I find 34 PSi HOT works best with my 2,8xx lbs FD with me in it.

I wish I had noticed this thread sooner!

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Old 03-21-10, 08:25 AM
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^^^

That's great feedback... not only on the R1, but also that it would appear I've been running my Hoosiers too hot.
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Old 03-21-10, 10:12 AM
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wird, I wish you had too. May have saved me a season on those tires. Between myself and a few others that I track with that ran the R1 last season we were all dissapointed to some degree, I think myself being the most dissapointed. I stayed away from the Hoosier last year because my only hoosier driving has been on the A6 and well as they performed how quick they drop off doesnt suit me, im not the fastest guy out there and Im really working on learning some more consistency... I may try the R6 this year tho. Im also contemplating kumho 710's as well as our hot laps are limited to about 8 min sessions. Otherwise I might go back to my old faithfull victoracers.
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Old 03-21-10, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post
^^^

That's great feedback... not only on the R1, but also that it would appear I've been running my Hoosiers too hot.
What pressures were you aiming for hot and how heavy is your car? I dropped my time at Mosport by 2 seconds going from 38-40 hot to 36 front, 35 rear when I was doing 1:38's at Mosport (turned into 1:36's) and kept dropping from there. I like keeping the pressures the same all around hot, the car seems more balanced.

Side note, my mechanics 2400 pound 20b race car is happy with 32 psi hot on the Hoosiers as well. He runs 1:26's but of course he has a tonload more experience then me and the car is setup to do one thing and one thing only.

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Old 03-21-10, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by thewird View Post
What pressures were you aiming for hot and how heavy is your car? I dropped my time at Mosport by 2 seconds going from 38-40 hot to 36 front, 35 rear when I was doing 1:38's at Mosport (turned into 1:36's) and kept dropping from there. I like keeping the pressures the same all around hot, the car seems more balanced.

Side note, my mechanics 2400 pound 20b race car is happy with 32 psi hot on the Hoosiers as well. He runs 1:26's but of course he has a tonload more experience then me and the car is setup to do one thing and one thing only.

thewird
Car probably weighs the same as yours more or less, and I've also been shooting at 38-40 psi hot. Did you need any more camber to keep them from rolling over?
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Old 03-21-10, 06:11 PM
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I only have 1 or 2 degrees extra camber then stock (don't remember, its been a while), I didn't want bad tire wear on the street. If your running 38-40 hot, your in the same boat as me a year back. You'll notice a huge improvement in grip and longevity of grip by dropping the pressures substantially. Try 36 hot, then 35 hot, then 34 and see which you like best. I tried running 32 psi hot once but the car started feeling sloppy so I went back to 34 psi hot which runs like butter. The Hoosier R6's have a hardened sidewall so they can take a lot lower pressure under load.

My car weighs 2,8xx with me in it but I weigh 230 pounds so the actual car weight is in the 2,6xx lbs.

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