First Gen for potential Auto X/Track Day car?
12-15-13, 12:38 PM
#26
PICT8551-1 by Mahjik, on Flickr
You might send a PM to "ebb" here on the forum. He raced a RX8 (pictured above) for a few seasons and has driven my S2000 (and several race prepared Miata's). He can provide you some useful insight on some of the various vehicles although you likely aren't going to like what he has to say about his old RX8.
12-16-13, 10:01 PM
#27
Mr. September FB 2011
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Call me biased, but I'm partial to FB's!
Rx8 would be an ok runner too, like it was said before, these cars are that much simpler!
Rx8 would be an ok runner too, like it was said before, these cars are that much simpler!
Last edited by nofords; 12-16-13 at 10:04 PM.
12-18-13, 07:27 AM
#29
Mr. September FB 2011
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FC subframe DIY coilovers on AGX shocks and unknown brand (bought used) 26mm sway bar.
Rear:
GSL-SE rear, DIY tri-link, strange coilovers, no sway bar.
Engine:
Race Port 13BT
I have a build thread for it around here somewhere...
12-18-13, 08:06 AM
#30
PICT8551-1 by Mahjik, on Flickr
You might send a PM to "ebb" here on the forum. He raced a RX8 (pictured above) for a few seasons and has driven my S2000 (and several race prepared Miata's). He can provide you some useful insight on some of the various vehicles although you likely aren't going to like what he has to say about his old RX8.
12-19-13, 11:07 AM
#31
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in PTB the 8 is going to be down on power for a start…. i think PTB is about 11lbs/hp so he'd have to be down to 2320lbs, which isn't happening!
12-19-13, 07:11 PM
#32
lol I see. I'd love to have an 8 that weighed around 2300. That thing would fly if it was possible to drop the weight and maintain the rigitiy/frame/being and RX-8.
12-20-13, 10:17 AM
#33
Rotary Enthusiast
Without reading too many of the replies, here is my 2 cents:
For autox, FB is not the best without some serious modifications. Been there, done that. The car is not great with tight corners and cone dodging (considering the truck steering box). Don't get me wrong, it will be fun; however don't expect it to do any FTD's by a long stretch, specially if you are coming from a Miata chassis.
For track, it is another story. Again the first thing to do is get rid of the front suspension and put the FC front subframe and steering. I has been done quite a few times over the years from a simple swap to a total rebuild of the front frame. It works well, there are plenty of aftermarket FC parts as well as few different steering rack options (manual, auto, different ratios). The stock FB front suspension can be made to handle alright, but it is all band-aids.
I still love the FB after years of racing FC's. It is more of a sports car in my opinion than the FC (touring, 944 competitor).
For autox, FB is not the best without some serious modifications. Been there, done that. The car is not great with tight corners and cone dodging (considering the truck steering box). Don't get me wrong, it will be fun; however don't expect it to do any FTD's by a long stretch, specially if you are coming from a Miata chassis.
For track, it is another story. Again the first thing to do is get rid of the front suspension and put the FC front subframe and steering. I has been done quite a few times over the years from a simple swap to a total rebuild of the front frame. It works well, there are plenty of aftermarket FC parts as well as few different steering rack options (manual, auto, different ratios). The stock FB front suspension can be made to handle alright, but it is all band-aids.
I still love the FB after years of racing FC's. It is more of a sports car in my opinion than the FC (touring, 944 competitor).
12-23-13, 02:52 PM
#35
Lives on the Forum
Hm, I've always been pretty happy with the fb for autocrossing. Yes, it is a challenge when racing against more modern cars with better suspension/power/etc. but it's still the most fun in my opinion.
If you are just getting into AX, then I would definitely recommend the fb. Just like everyone will tell you "don't start learning to race on R Comp tires because they will hide your mistakes", well, I think the same applies to the car too.
Years of competing in my fb on street tires definitely made me a better driver. Then, when I switched to race rubber I started getting some FTDs. Miatas leave little puddles of oil when they see my car pull in for the events.
Miatas are great cars, and probably the best choice overall for AX. But hell, anyone can win in a Miata. lol.
.
If you are just getting into AX, then I would definitely recommend the fb. Just like everyone will tell you "don't start learning to race on R Comp tires because they will hide your mistakes", well, I think the same applies to the car too.
Years of competing in my fb on street tires definitely made me a better driver. Then, when I switched to race rubber I started getting some FTDs. Miatas leave little puddles of oil when they see my car pull in for the events.
Miatas are great cars, and probably the best choice overall for AX. But hell, anyone can win in a Miata. lol.
.
12-30-13, 01:20 PM
#37
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on the downside, the A pillar is weak, so any car to car contact usually totals both. if you look under it, its primitive and crude, the engine is HUGE and very heavy, not a very easy car to work on, and they wired it up after a few beers, so the electrical system is just bizarre
the drivers always compared the E30's handling to a school bus….
the E46, it looks awesome, everyone thinks its fast, it does handle really well for some reason.
we found the downsides are huge with these, underneath its still an E30, its primitive, and just built weird, the FC mounts it rear suspension to the strongest part of the chassis, the E46 literally is bolted to the trunk floor with 4 bolts, it falls out, even on street cars, yet the leading edge of the hood is like 8 layers of sheet metal :headscratch: the FC attaches the rear shock to a lug, and then the bolt just keeps the shock from sliding off, BMW just uses the bolt, they break...
we had problems with the electricals failing between races, parts are expensive, getting an accurate shop manual eluded us for some reason
getting HP requires an engine change, along with the ECU, and all the stuff in the car is integrated with the ecu, so its really involved
plus the thing is a porker, striped out with cage it was like 3200lbs?
as you can tell i'm not a huge BMW fan, i think most of their engineering is more like "engineering", although my friend says its the ultimate DRIVING machine, and not the ultimate car to repair…
12-30-13, 05:08 PM
#38
we road raced an E46 and a spec E30 a couple years ago. the spec E30 is fun, as the racing is really close. the cars are durable, a 200k junkyard engine will happily put up with a couple seasons of racing. on the reliability front they do well too.
on the downside, the A pillar is weak, so any car to car contact usually totals both. if you look under it, its primitive and crude, the engine is HUGE and very heavy, not a very easy car to work on, and they wired it up after a few beers, so the electrical system is just bizarre
the drivers always compared the E30's handling to a school bus….
the E46, it looks awesome, everyone thinks its fast, it does handle really well for some reason.
we found the downsides are huge with these, underneath its still an E30, its primitive, and just built weird, the FC mounts it rear suspension to the strongest part of the chassis, the E46 literally is bolted to the trunk floor with 4 bolts, it falls out, even on street cars, yet the leading edge of the hood is like 8 layers of sheet metal :headscratch: the FC attaches the rear shock to a lug, and then the bolt just keeps the shock from sliding off, BMW just uses the bolt, they break...
we had problems with the electricals failing between races, parts are expensive, getting an accurate shop manual eluded us for some reason
getting HP requires an engine change, along with the ECU, and all the stuff in the car is integrated with the ecu, so its really involved
plus the thing is a porker, striped out with cage it was like 3200lbs?
as you can tell i'm not a huge BMW fan, i think most of their engineering is more like "engineering", although my friend says its the ultimate DRIVING machine, and not the ultimate car to repair…
on the downside, the A pillar is weak, so any car to car contact usually totals both. if you look under it, its primitive and crude, the engine is HUGE and very heavy, not a very easy car to work on, and they wired it up after a few beers, so the electrical system is just bizarre
the drivers always compared the E30's handling to a school bus….
the E46, it looks awesome, everyone thinks its fast, it does handle really well for some reason.
we found the downsides are huge with these, underneath its still an E30, its primitive, and just built weird, the FC mounts it rear suspension to the strongest part of the chassis, the E46 literally is bolted to the trunk floor with 4 bolts, it falls out, even on street cars, yet the leading edge of the hood is like 8 layers of sheet metal :headscratch: the FC attaches the rear shock to a lug, and then the bolt just keeps the shock from sliding off, BMW just uses the bolt, they break...
we had problems with the electricals failing between races, parts are expensive, getting an accurate shop manual eluded us for some reason
getting HP requires an engine change, along with the ECU, and all the stuff in the car is integrated with the ecu, so its really involved
plus the thing is a porker, striped out with cage it was like 3200lbs?
as you can tell i'm not a huge BMW fan, i think most of their engineering is more like "engineering", although my friend says its the ultimate DRIVING machine, and not the ultimate car to repair…
Cheaper is always better for me. I'd rather have to drop a new rotary into a car, especially something like a 12a that's basically just the motor mounts hoses and transmission bolts and it's ready to be pulled.
I was considering a WRX a bit, but they don't seem to do well here. Could be peoples cars or drivers. They don't set bad times, but they aren't going significantly faster than my Miata is either.
12-30-13, 10:17 PM
#39
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mahjik/9496627536/http://www.flickr.com/photos/mahjik/9496627536/ by http://www.flickr.com/people/mahjik/, on Flickr
I will say that my E46 M3 is probably one of the most naturally balanced cars I've ever run on a track. However, to Jeff's point, it's not a cheap car to put on the track. However an E36 swapped with a S54 is a tough cookie to beat. The photo above is Chris Mayfield's S54 swapped E36 (2013 TT3 National Champ). It's a great time trial car since they choke it down to meet the power to weight ratio, but that basically gives the car full power very low in the rpm range (which means he has available power just about whenever). For the money, it doesn't get much better.
I'm a little biased, but have you considered a S2000?
lol Really good to know. We have a few people that have switched to them for autocross. One girl actually swapped her Miata and now her and her husband drive a 3 series. Seemed like power was low for such a big car unless you swap in an M3 engine, which also seemed to be costly.
I'm a little biased, but have you considered a S2000?
12-31-13, 03:07 PM
#40
PICT2071 by Mahjik, on Flickr
I will say that my E46 M3 is probably one of the most naturally balanced cars I've ever run on a track. However, to Jeff's point, it's not a cheap car to put on the track. However an E36 swapped with a S54 is a tough cookie to beat. The photo above is Chris Mayfield's S54 swapped E36 (2013 TT3 National Champ). It's a great time trial car since they choke it down to meet the power to weight ratio, but that basically gives the car full power very low in the rpm range (which means he has available power just about whenever). For the money, it doesn't get much better.
I'm a little biased, but have you considered a S2000?
We have a few running at or autocrosses. The only real complaints are the low torque under 5500 RPMs or so.
01-01-14, 03:11 AM
#42
I'm ok with not being the fastest. I just want to stay competitive with other cars. We get about 90 people out per event. I usually finish in the top 45 or so, so any improvement on that would be great.
01-01-14, 01:42 PM
#43
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the E30/E36 with the M3 engine in it is FAST, there is one around here just like that red one, it runs sub 2minute times at thunderhill… the anecdote, is that the guy who owns it can do an engine replacement in 2 hours, because during a 25 hour race, he needs to do it at least once, and even at that it STILL wins its class.
the S2000. its weird, nobody road races one. either they are still too expensive, or the owners are at Abercrombie and fitch looking at the models….
we have had a couple around the track and its quick. you do need to DRIVE it though, so if your ham fisted (like me!) the S2000 would be twitchy/hard/backwards in the ditch.
the only real red flag is that the high mileage car was a bunch slower than the low mileage car, so i wonder about the engine in a road racing context, auto-x it'll be fine though.
for the 25's the "factory" (they all work for honda, and show up with honda semi trucks, and have brand new cars for spare parts but insist they are a private team, they get stomped badly by the Mazda's) honda team has always run something else
the S2000. its weird, nobody road races one. either they are still too expensive, or the owners are at Abercrombie and fitch looking at the models….
we have had a couple around the track and its quick. you do need to DRIVE it though, so if your ham fisted (like me!) the S2000 would be twitchy/hard/backwards in the ditch.
the only real red flag is that the high mileage car was a bunch slower than the low mileage car, so i wonder about the engine in a road racing context, auto-x it'll be fine though.
for the 25's the "factory" (they all work for honda, and show up with honda semi trucks, and have brand new cars for spare parts but insist they are a private team, they get stomped badly by the Mazda's) honda team has always run something else
01-02-14, 12:40 PM
#45
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01-02-14, 01:28 PM
#46
To be honest, I've seen a lot more S2000's out of the tracks than RX7's at least with NASA. I saw two RX7's this past year:
1. V8 swapped (widebody) FC
2. FD which blew the motor on its 2nd session
However, there are still a lot more RX7's in the SCCA which I don't frequent. Granted, some of those are the "7's Only" GT RX7's which I'm not sure I count.
The S2000 is a little handicapped with race groups, so yes there aren't too many racing. Unless Honda Challenge is booming in your region, the S2000 is not a smart choice for wheel-to-wheel stuff. However, for autox and time trials, it's got a good following if you pick the right classifications.I will say, I've seen a lot more testing and sharing in the S2000 community around autox and time trials than any other car community (i.e. not comparing dedicated sanction sites).
01-02-14, 01:29 PM
#47
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the S2000. its weird, nobody road races one. either they are still too expensive, or the owners are at Abercrombie and fitch looking at the models….
we have had a couple around the track and its quick. you do need to DRIVE it though, so if your ham fisted (like me!) the S2000 would be twitchy/hard/backwards in the ditch.
we have had a couple around the track and its quick. you do need to DRIVE it though, so if your ham fisted (like me!) the S2000 would be twitchy/hard/backwards in the ditch.
their issue (at least for our technical track) is that they need a lot of brake upgrades to make the car work successfully as a lapping car.
The brakes are so inadequate that it only takes a lap of our track to have them come back completely glazed, cracked and boiled.
Other than that, they are a balanced car and can do well with a decent driver.
01-05-14, 05:40 PM
#48
I see a lot fewer S2Ks in my area, even on the road. They were all over the place for a while. We recently saw a boom in FR-S/BRZs. I think there are about 5 new ones within a few blocks of my house that popped up over christmas. My boss picked up on and it seems to do well. Way too expensive for me to build and drive as just an autox/track car though haha.
01-05-14, 06:44 PM
#49
I use to autocross my FB out in the tidewater area until they lost the ACU-4 site. I really dislike the pungo site because the surface is terrible and small. I also know the owner of the megasquirt blue FC that runs out there too. If you ever get an FB and needs some assistance I am not too far from you since I work at Joint Base Langley Eustis.
01-06-14, 02:20 PM
#50
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[QUOTE=Mahjik;11651487]Hey, I'm not even in the same state and I knew about it! Just kidding. [quote]
one of our team jokes is that i don't follow sports. sometimes even the sports i'm actually doing...
we used to have a really good honda challenge group, but its kind of died
[quote]one of our team jokes is that i don't follow sports. sometimes even the sports i'm actually doing...
. Unless Honda Challenge is booming in your region, the S2000 is not a smart choice for wheel-to-wheel stuff. However, for autox and time trials, it's got a good following if you pick the right classifications.