FC track brakes?
 

Im trying to get an idea of new brakes to put on my 1990 GTUs. I want to go all around with a real decent set that will be suitable for track events. Maybe something in the middle of the road price range. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Jake

stock components in new or very good condition and a good quality brake pad with be perfect for track days and most "IT" type racing. the stock setup is very good and up to the task for most drivers. the key is to have all of the system working to its best. No need for giant calipers and rotors for hot lapping and open track events. Quality rotors and pads with good working calipers and master cylinder will be great.

Excellent, everything else works really well, So im just going to purchase some nice pads for now. They need to be replaced, but thats about it, and my front calipers are new.

Yep, good racing pads and cooling ducts should be fine. Also get some braided lines to replace your rubber ones. They work fine on an EProd car.

:werd:

the SS hoses should give you a bit of a better feel in the brake pedal, and good pads all around will make a big difference

when i did my brakes i found a set of drilled/slotted rotors for the fronts and used OEM rear discs with stock calipers (single pots) and i went with ceramic pads at all four corners

stopping power is way better now, but having good rubber is also key to stopping well

good luck
james

Unless you're running in a very wet climate there is no reason to purchase drilled rotors. There is never a good reason to purchase slotted rotors. I'd purchase some new rotors, and reccomend a good set of pads and lines.

I'd read up on what everyone is offering and what type of racing you plan to be doing. For auto-x I'd reccomend a set of carbotech bobcats. I've got a set of them on my WRX and am very pleased with them and although they do eventually fade on track, they're great pads and provide enough shear force to lock up even 200+ degree azenis. So unless your rx-7 has ABS i'd stay away from the really adressive pads if the car doesn't have slicks and will be driven on the street as well. Otherwise you'll just be flatspotting tires left and right.

Thanks for all the input, now its time to shop

For open track, and other road course events, I'd suggest Carbotech XP1109, or XP1110. For AX I like EBC green. You cannot use EBCs at an opentrack, they'll last ~35-45 minutes. Carl

I use Autozone rotors and Carbo XP1110s, no ducts (don't need it for fade, probably would help with longevity), and have no problems with brakes. If there's a weak area on the FC, brakes isn't the area (at least at stockish power levels)

PaulC

EBC is junk from my experience. I had a pad crack in half within a week of usage. don't trust them.

carbotech
Porterfield
Performance friction
and some hawk pads

are all reputable.

What are the stockish power levels, by your opinion?

-Fanis

EBC is certainly not a long lasting track pad, but for the street have used them on my MKIV Supra for ~5 years. I am very tough on brakes, and the Supra weighs in at ~3650. Zero dust, Zero fade(even on the track ~130-30 over and over), and they are bonded not riveted like Carbotech. I would not usually defend EBC, but quality has been there strong point for me. I have gone through ~8-10 sets on my Supra, and a couple on my oad race RX7. The dust is a big deal to me, as I have 3 piece Forgelines on my Supra, they are raw Forged aluminum, and dust is the pits. There is NO other pad that will perform at the level these will, and not dust. Carl

I'm going to be trying the new yellow EBCs in two weekends.... will report back. That is if they ever come in though.

Used to use Forodo DS-11s on my RX-3..
Run Hawk Blacks on the ITA for autocrosses
Run Hawk HP+ for Street on the ITA
Run Blues up front and Blacks in rear on the track and still need to proportion a bit out of the rear. :(
On the FCs?
Tried Blacks.. they caught fire on the 88 TII.
Used Blues on the 88TII, 86 Sport, and another 88 TII. All on track days and or more and would get the oil temps, and water temps up too high to keep pushing on short and or long track Sebring, after 10+ laps to continue at 10/10ths... Brakes in that condition? ZERO FADE... with no ducting other than stock.

Now.... Note on the Blues.... While thay are AWESOMELY confidence inspiring in full race trim.... they are rotor grinders on the street.. and or low temp applications... IE Autocross.
I tried to justify them by thinking I could drive hard enough on a autocross to justify them.. and had NOTICIBLE wear after a 5 pass autocross.
I used another set on the street before that and my rotors were horribly worn after 2 weeks going to and from work.. and I drive hard for those 3 miles each way..

Blues for other than race? Nope.
Race? Wouldnt use anything else. (at this point)

I agree about the drill rotors but I have read that slotted is the way to go. The slots help to keep the brake pad face “clean” and give more “bite”. I have slotted rotors on my car but have yet to drive it so I’m just going by what I have read.

I thought the reason to drill or slot was to release gasses that build up between the pad and rotor. I've seen ricers with both done, thats like wearing a belt and suspenders together. One or the other works. Some rotors don't hold up well to drilling and you can go overboard, remove to much material, and end up losing the heat sink capacity of the piece. (Thats extreme but I've heard of being done to lighten a rotor) I just slot them.

its my understanding that most modern rotors don't create gases that the pads can float on, thats like a hodrodder thing from the 1930s.

you guys have been extremely helpful, thank you very much :bigthumb:

After I get my first paycheck from my big new job itl be time to shop

Bingo!
I totally agree!

It's also highly dependent on weight of chassis (I'm assuming close to stock), power (assuming about 150 to 180RWHP), and speeds attained or % braking on the track.
These are all variables that dictate which brake pad to go with.

If we're talking about a relatively "slow" track, then you *might* be able to get away with Hawk HP+ or Porterfield "R4"'s.
But, if we're talking triple digit speeds, Hawk Blues is about as best of a choice you can go for the price.

Like SPiN Racing said, do NOT try and street these pads other than on the track.
These things eat rotors for breakfast!



-Ted

Hawk pads(all) are terrible on rotors, are not linear, and do not last for shit. Carbotech, Cobalt, and PF will school a similar car on Hawks all day long. Hawks are an old school(sorry Ted) alternative, and the disc manufacturers love all you guys that use them. The carbotechs work quite well hauling the FC down from 135-40 repeatedly. Combine that with Motul 5.1, or RBF600, and only a few tracks are too much for the stock brakes(Laguna, and Big Willow). In Norcal both Thunderhill, and Infineon are fine on stock brakes with XP10/5.1/ducts. Carl

I used HP+'s on my '87 FC with great success.... no brake fade..... but I did get them to smoke after really pushing the car hard (n/a 140hp beast :)). Zero ducting on the 4 piston caliper brakes with vented stock rotors.... but I'm sure the venting would've helped and been worth the effort. They dusted like a mofo though which I was warned about.

My car will probably be a caged 1150-1200kg car with 250-270fwhp, 16" wheels with 205/55R16 or 225/50R16 tires all around. Some street driving too.
What do you suggest?

-Fanis

Sorry Carl, but I have to stand by my statements.
I guess you missed the part about "...for the price."

Personally, I *LOVE* Performance Friction stuff, but you're SOL trying to find applications for the FC - they higher grade pads are all discontinued. :(
The PF Z pads are CRAP.

The Hawks were still 1/3rd the cost of the PF's.
The Hawks are almost always cheaper than any of the alternatives out there.

Like I said...best for the money.

Side note, I went with Wilwood calipers JUST to get the use the PF's pad.
Gotta love "universal" applications - PF90's and 93's are under $100 per axle for my Wilwoods! :D


-Ted

I have been through the fires of hell and back so far this year and last in brakes on my N/A FC.

If you think the tracks listed above are hard on brakes!? Two words for you.

ROAD AMERICA

I converted my GTU to the 4-piston 4 vented rotor setup and took it to road america with some low budget carbon kevlar pads. I was fighting fading brakes all day long. Along with numerous other brake system problems made for a couple of scary moments. I probably should have quit after the first session.

1. the pads were horrible. They reqired me to brake earlier and harder than I wanted to to slow up the car for turn 5 and turn 8. Thus if i didn't fade in 5 I was fading in 8. For most tracks i now use porterfield R4 brakes. But for braking tracks Hawk blues is the only thing that gives the friction I have needed that I have been able to find.

2. I cracked two REAR cross drilled rotors at road america. I will never run cross drilled again. I used crossdrilled on my truck to resist warping but they belong nowhere near a track car. Good cryogenically treated slotted rotors are a must. For a track like Road America you have to have the pad cleaning of slotted rotors. And for my money (because i like not having to buy rotors as often by half) cryogenically treated is far and away worth it.

3. If you have the original master cylinder in your FC i would not take it anywhere near the track. Its just too old.

4. Now use nothing but MOTUL RFB 600 in my track car. I cooked valvoline synthetic all day long at many tracks and had to bleed almost every session.

Mind you this is on an N/A i never broke 125mph.... But turn 5 at RA you go from about 125+ to 45 while traveling down hill. Then almost the same thing in turn 8. RA has lots of long straights into 90° corners.

You want to know about general road course braking from the best. Start and end your shoping here....

Bill Groshen - frozenrotors.com

It was never the rotors that gassed. And they may not as much on your average street car. But road racing will gas pads no mater what they are made of. All pads still have a binding compound that gasses under some conditions...

All the newer compounds that are used to replace esbestos gas more now from what I have heard.

I run Hawkes also, but I usually use the HT-10's up front and blues in the rear. Wilwood bias valve(lever style). Stock FC big brakes front and rear. Braided lines. AP600 fluid. No problems for me, even Sebring Short course.

HT-10's seem to have a higher friction coefficient. They seem to have a little higher intial bite than the blues, or some other pads. With smooth pedal application, you will find yourself over slowed and waiting for the corner, until you get used to them.

Typical life under racing conditions-4 weekends out of the front pads-7-8 out of the rear. 7-10 weekends on the front rotors(depending on the track) I haven't replaced the rear rotors yet-so i can't comment on that.

If you try the HT-10's, be careful first time in the riain. :)

Jim

I guess my biggest beef with Hawks is Rotor destruction. I can go a year(~12-16 track days plus AX) on a set of rotors pl;us ~12,000 miles of street driving. Then theyjust need to be turned, and do it again. Try that with Hawks... Carbotechs are ~180.00 for the fronts

I swap the fronts for hawk blues at the track. I never drive on the street with them. They don't eat cryo rotors too bad at all as long as you warm them up quickly. Then after the event I swap back to porterfield r4s before I pull onto the street.

I've been happy with Hawk blacks. I've never felt the need to go to the blues in my ITS 87.

I actually like the grabbyness of the Hawks. They taught me to be very soft and steady with the brakes. With other pads like Porterfields, I had a tendency to stab the brakes a little harder at the end of the brake zones - bad habit.

I had no problems in the 4 hour endurance races at Summit Point.

However although I do not drive the car much on the street, I do drive the car to the track instead of trailering it. Because of that the disks are done in the same time the pads are done. I have to replace them as a set yearly.

Lately I have been experimenting with the blacks in front and blues in rear to give a little more bite to the rear brakes. I haven't decided if it's good yet.

ed

The hawks cerainly have their place in motorsports, just not my favorite.

If you track your car, STAY AWAY from cross-drilled and/or slotted rotors. There is NO reason for them anymore at all except for looking cool on a street car. If you track your car with either cd or slotted rotors and you're not a pussy on the brakes, your rotors will crack, plain and simple. I've cracked both types, front and rear. Not to mention that drilling/slotting them reduces the overall contact area between the rotor and pad and argueably shortens pad life.

I've found the best solution to be one that AWR offers.
http://www.awrracing.com/pages/rx/rxbrakes.html
For about $100 more initally per rotor over the typical price for stock or other companies cd/slotted rotors (racers get stock rotors for $70 through Mazdaspeed...hard to beat that) you can have two piece rotors (rotor and aluminum hat). Then, when the time comes to replace the rotors, you only replace the rotor (not the hat) and the price for those is less than stock/cd/slotted rotors from other sources. The rotors themselves are also better designed than anything else you can simply bolt onto your car without spending megabucks and are 3 lbs. lighter than stock to help reduce unsprung weight.
You can even cryo the rotors for roughly $30-$40 somewhere locally. The place I use locally charges $9.00 a pound and turns them around in a day or two. Well worth it.

The front calipers on the fc/fd are excellant units. Simply upgrade the pads to whatever know-it-all recommends. I like Hawks (hps/street and blues/track) as they are the best bang for the buck imho. I'll back up what others have said through my own experiences in that the blacks and especially blues have an appetite for rotors and should not be used in any case on the street. Cryo-treating the rotors does help reduce wear from what I've experienced, but I still won't run blues or blacks on the street with them.
There are better pads out there for sure, but you'll pay for them.

btw, this is on my 380rwhp (perhaps 410+ next week :) ) 3200lb. daily driven vert that is in my sig.

Thanks for a great link.

I guess I'll continue to support slotted as long as I dont crack one. I realy think it helps prevent gassing and pad smear. The reduction in contact area is neglidgable IMHO. I personally have the 3 short slot pattern which, I would guess helps prevent cracking over one long continuous slot.

I am from Ontario Canada and we race on 2 tracks here. I run the regional series which is our version of SCCA regional racing. The car has hawk blue pads all the way around with STOCK rotors and STOCK Turbo II/GXL calipers. I dont have any problem with wear or fade, pads last me a 6 race season, and rotors would probably go 2 seasons. We run 4 race weekends at Mosport (long sweeping track on 2 high speed brake applications per lap, and Shannonville, 10 turns hard braking for 7 of those corners. The hawk blues are awesome!

I had always wondered if somebody did these for the FC, but never bothered to look. Too bad I just put new rotors on the TII. I now know what the next set will be. Thanks for the link!

Keep in mind, less mass, equal less ability to disipate heat. These are designed for EP cars weighing ~2300lbs. I have a near full weight Fc /~450rwhp, I think I'll stick with stock. I will call AWR, but so far each time I have called on a part of my project we have been in agreement. Carl

Nicely put... and not being contrary or anything..

I think something important in your general feeling on the blues... They dont work for you.. for the reasons you mentioned..
Many like them..

Myself.. they fit my braking style nicely.. /shrug
Some people may drive differently.. and many will brake differently.

Track days will require different braking use than full race days.... for example.. IF... IF youre lucky.. you may be able to make 2-3 full 10/10ths laps on a track DAY... the rest of the time.. you will be On it for a few corners.. then being nice for a couple going through traffic.. then on it again.. etc.
Race laps? Basically 10/10ths.. Yep if you run into slower traffic you may hit 9/10ths.. but not really.. then the people behind you are at 10/10ths and will catch up. Soo Find a passing spot :)

Basically.. everyone will have different tastes on braking and budgets...

I know a close friend does track days with a 1st gen... He runs HP+.. and they last.. and the rotors last............ But he doesnt brake as aggressively as I do. Sooooo The brakes dont last for me like they do for him. He goes fast.. but not as fast.... not to say I am fast.. cause I know a lot that are MUCH MUCH faster here in the SE. But.. again.. everyone will have different requirements.

I would think... try something "cheaper" and see if it works for you. If it doesnt.. re-evaluate from there.


My biggest piece of advice for those doing dual duty... SPEND THE CASH..... Get a set of rotors and pads for the track.. and have a set for street... if you are gonna be real serious about braking like a monster.. and going to work every day. Then you can change em out.. hit the track.. and change em out and go back to work.

Or just do what soo many have.... but a 500 buck beater FC and then make a real serious car for the track... and dont worry about dual purpose.

Dude, if you're serious about racing, I'd expect the rotors to be replaced annually. :)


-Ted

If you are implying that the two piece designed rotors will not disappate heat as well as stock rotors because they have less mass, that would be wrong. These rotors simply outperform and outlast stock rotors with my high powered 3200+lb. car from my experience. The vents are better designed and those will do more to disappate heat than more mass would of a similiar sized rotor. Besides, the extra mass of the stock rotor is from the hat, not the rotor itself. If the mass was from a larger diameter rotor that would be another story, but the rotors AWR supplies are also slighltly larger in diameter. Furthermore, aluminum (as with the rotor hats) disappates heat better than steel.

Carl, if you are racing and insist on using stock rotors it seems silly to turn them when they can be had for so cheap through Mazdacomp (around $70). Remember, more mass disappates more heat and thin rotors are no good in any case ;)

Aslo, I pm'd you my number so call me about tuning....

Why buy rotors from Mazda for $70 when you can get Brembo rotors for $60 from The Tire Rack? Any particular reason?

You can buy Raybestos 5 lug front brake rotors from rockauto.com for $15.35 each plus shipping.

He said he'd stick to stock rotors so I was just stating what they could be had for afaik.
$15.00 is awfully cheap. Just more of a reason not to have used rotors turned. Then again, I wonder about the quality of them.
In any case, I'll stick with the relatively cheap two-piece design.

Well, because I race costs are very important, but I will not skimp on something that effects the performance, if I can help it. Not sure how you can be so sure that the AWR pieces are better than stock(other than unsprung weight), for example, a stock braked MKIV Supra will outbrake a 14" StopTech Supra for the first 5-8 laps, then they are even, and then the StopTechs take over once you get a bunch of heat in the whole system(~8-10 laps at T Hill). I guess I just have seen so many performance brake set-ups that do not work as well as stock, that I am a bit of a sceptic. I'd say everything has a trade off, and brakes are a very personal thing. whatever works for you, ya know... anyhow, I sent you a PM on tuning, I have two or three really good guys that I am looking at, I will call you. Carl

$15 is cheap and rockauto.com is about the cheapest palce I've found, but you do have to pay shipping on that chunk of cast iron. It's Raybestos brand stuff so it shouldn't be Chinese iron, but I'd double check to be sure.

At this point I can't afford to spend what $400 to save 3-4 lbs unsprung weight per corner? I'm having a house built so I'm expecting quite a chunk of change to go into curtains, funiture, landscaping, etc. I have $14,000 sitting in the bank, but it's for the down payment and closing costs. So the FC sits and waits for whatever trickles down.

If it has ANY street driving..it has to have a street pad, unless you like swapping pads, and sanding rotors a lot.

So..its a Porterfield R4-S pad...IMHO. There are other options, but since youre shopping for a crossover pad, there will be adjustments you may need to accept in how to drive/brake the car on a racetrack, afterall, youre not racing, and you already know how to use the brake pedal..concentrate on the steering and eyeball-on-target stuff, and trainin' yer brain.

Its abrasive temp doesnt really exist as its happy ambient, and its adhesive temp reaches 900 easy, and can see limited temps to 1200d. The more you abuse em..the more they dust which can be either good or "normal" depending how you drive. But the dust will NEVER glue to, or harm your wheels or ride. Very very easy on rotors as well.

Most race pads are very abrasive below 250d face-to-face temperature, then they start to transition to adhesive. Race pads never used hot very much, are likely to chunk and fail as well.

My initial rx7 club-racer pricing:

Porterfield R4-S:
Front: $71+S&H MSRP=80
Rear: $64+S&H MSRP=70

Hawk Blue spec pads:
Front: $86+S&H MSRP=$105
Rear: $79+S&H MSRP=$95

Find me 10 people for -any- combination of the above parts, remove another 5%.

That could be 2 people buying five boxes each, 10 buying fronts only..just 10 of any of that.

Of coruse, any other Hawk, PFC, Raybestos (race only compounds) are available..

I do this for the clubs..it supports my racing..thats it.

racers get stock rotors for $70 through Mazdaspeed...hard to beat that
---
We are talking front first gen rotors..right??

I'll confirm what my porterfield pricing is tomorrow, just bought four more rotors yesterday..not that I keep track of my cost that I can recall at 1am..but $70?? My goodness, how can you NOT get cheaper than that?


) you can have two piece rotors (rotor and aluminum hat). Then, when the time comes to replace the rotors, you only replace the rotor (not the hat) and the price for those is less than stock/cd/slotted rotors from other sources. The rotors themselves are also better designed than anything else you can simply bolt onto your car without spending megabucks and are 3 lbs. lighter than stock to help reduce unsprung weight.
You can even cryo the rotors for roughly $30-$40 somewhere locally. The place I use locally charges $9.00 a pound and turns them around in a day or two. Well worth it.
---
If you arent class restricted, 2pc usually is a much better option..yep!

:)

Try again, every two race days I have at least one thats trash.

So if I can only afford two events a year that would be annually! We're getting ready to replace ours(EProd FC) after about 8 track hours but they were cryo'd.

I feel like there is so much information in this thread about brakes that my head is going to explode. I need to re-read this like 10 times before I buy :cool:

Serious racing demands that you learn to save your equipment, many a race has been lost because of equipment that was used up by overly aggressive, not neccesarily fast driving. Fast drivers are often much easier on equipment than the slightly slower ones. Breaking later, but harder is usually the slow way around, sometimes it can v=be as fast, but you will wear out your equipment before your competition. Not saying that is the case with all the guys speaking of going through brakes every couple days, but I can get ten weekends out of my Supras brakes plus ~8-10,000 street miles. The car weighs ~3600+lbs, and I am turning sub 2:10 at T'hill in it on three year old V700s. If you ever watch the on board telemetry on a race car with an accomplished driver, you will see less braking than a mediocre one. Late hard braking is for passing, it is the slow way around the track, and the fast way to burn up your equipment. If you are replacing brakes out of neccessity after two races(in an RX7), you have a problem IMHO. Anyway, that's just my experience, and opinion. I hope to see you all at the track soon, my track car will be tuned by mid july, and I will be at about every NASA/green flag/speedventures/etc event thereafter. carl

After 8 hrs of track time.----Checked the rotors today, rears are fine, fronts are marginal. We had some problems with a Tilton bias adjuster that took almost all the pressure away from the rears until we gave up messing with it. We removed the bias adjuster and the cars stock set-up is pretty good until it rains! The bias problem led to an early demise of the front rotors. Just looking at them now I'd bet they would last 20 hrs on the track no problem with all the brakes working correctly.

For sale Tilton bias adjuster------cheap!
I'll just have to dig it out of the trash