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Club Racing AZ - July 15th 113F+FD track setup-Tein coilovers questions

Old 07-16-06, 10:52 AM
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Club Racing AZ - July 15th 113F+FD track setup-Tein coilovers questions

Well, I finally got my FD on the track at Firebird last night. This is located in the Phoenix, AZ area. It was hot 113F and my car never got above 195F. I am running a T04s, Vmount, dual B&M supercoolers, etc. Car ran really good other than some boost setting stuff with the profec b, solved by second heat.
Even though I placed third in the Time Attack Group B (Sub 300hp w/ race tires). I have some suspension and braking probs.

Brakes - Long straight I hit 135 mph - stock pads with drilled rotors - Faded after hard braking. Need new rotors and pads. Suggestions would be appreciated:

Coilovers - I have Tein RA's and they feel way over sprung. I was on the softest setting and it was loose the rear on corners with bumps. Should I sell these and buy something else, or change the springs?

Btw, I was running Yoko Advan a048, 255/40/17 on 17x9's.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Old 07-16-06, 01:47 PM
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I've had good luck with Carbotech Panther Plus on my FC at track events.

With stock pads I'm guessing you had pad fade: Pedal stays hard but the car just doesn't want to stop. Or was it fluid fade: Pad gets mushy (warning! take heed!) or goes to the floor and scares the **** out of you. What fluid are you using?

As for the coilovers... what are your alignment settings? If the rear is getting squirrely it's possible you have some toe out by accident, or not enough camber. Are all your ride heights set correctly? Are your corner weights correct?
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Old 07-16-06, 02:39 PM
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Er, that should say pedal gets mushy, not pad gets mushy.
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Old 07-16-06, 07:18 PM
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THe alignment is set at:
rear:
0 degree toe
2 degree camber

front:
3.5 degree camber
1/16 toe

Stock pads with stock fluid.
I had both types of fade, first after the long straight, I had pad fade. Immediatley followed by a mushy pedal. I was able to stay off the brake for a lap or so and they came back. They really only got bad when I went really deep over and over again.
Thanks btw
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Old 07-16-06, 08:00 PM
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You might want to dial in a little bit of rear toe-in. Is that front setting toe in or toe out?

What are the spring rates? Maybe the front (usually stiffer) and rear got switched somehow?

What antiroll bars are you using?

Stock fluid? As in pitch-black crud that's been in the car since 1993? Or just cheapo stuff from Pep Boys? Get some Motul 600 in there. Buy a case, since you'll need 3 bottles just to get a good flush, and you should bleed it before each event. Best price on the net is here:

http://www.motodepot.com/product_det...=1341&sku=3319

As for the pads, they're a subject of endless debate. I've been running the Carbotech Panther Plus in my FC with good results. If you call Carbotech and talk with the guy about your car and what you use it for, he should be able to help you out. I talked to one of their guys for like half an hour one time.

Ditch the drilled rotors, they just crack sooner. Use flats or slotted.
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Old 07-16-06, 08:39 PM
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The spring rates are 895 front and 895 rear. Front toe in of 1/16". I need to source some slotted rotors. The anti-rolls are stock also. I have very little body roll because of the spring rates. The fluid was fresh cheap stuff. I was only looking for this to be the shake down run so I kinda was looking for some of these probs.

Here's the tein RA's.
I knew they would be stiff when I bought them, but I don't drive very much on the street. They are really rough on the street.
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Old 07-16-06, 09:38 PM
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I don't know how stiff those are, since wheel rates are different between the FC and the FD.... hopefully someone with a 3rd gen will chime in on that.
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Old 07-16-06, 11:15 PM
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Link for the Tein RA's.
http://www.jaydm.com/tein/typera.htm
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Old 07-18-06, 09:16 PM
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Well, I checked my rear ride height and, guess what, the rear suspension was bottomed out. When I was aligning the vehicle, I set the rear 255/40/17's even with the inside of the fender. I never thought to check the suspension travel. The coilovers were resting on the stop bump things. I raised it up about 3/4" and it rides like a car with coilovers and the clickers work now.
Now I just need brakes!
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Old 07-18-06, 09:37 PM
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For the FD on stock calipers, I recommend getting a dedicated track pad and swap them out for upgraded street pads when not on the track.

For track pads: N-Tech Competition/Lapping Day pads or Carbotech XP10's

For street: Bonez Competition or Carbotech Bobcat

If you use the N-Tech pads, many guys have felt better balance and braking when using an upgraded street pad for the rear. I use the N-Tech Lapping Day pads on the front and the Bonez pads on the rear for track days. You might be able to do the same for the XP10's but I have not run that setup (yet).

Also make sure you have some good brake fluid. I would recommend Super Blue ATE (and/or Gold) for a dual street/track car.
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Old 07-18-06, 09:40 PM
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Also, for the shocks, I run the Tokicos with Tein S-Tech springs. Signifigantly less spring rate than those coilovers you have, but most typical spring rates for the FD have the rear less than the front. You might try adjusting the shock to be softer in the rear than the front and see how that feels.
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Old 07-18-06, 09:43 PM
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Thanks for the input, what boost levels do you run at track events?
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Old 07-18-06, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by darkslide750
Thanks for the input, what boost levels do you run at track events?
I run the stock twins so about 10 PSI normally (as even that generates more than enough heat). If it's a cooler day, I'll run it a little higher.
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Old 07-18-06, 09:57 PM
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For the Time Attacks I run, 280hp is the break with race tires. I am running 10psi too. I am single and probably making 300 rwhp. Nobody protested yet. I now the Sub and Evo guys are running there boost levels up. It is very hot in Phoenix. I regularly run my car hard in 110F + degrees. Temps stay good though.
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Old 07-18-06, 11:10 PM
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Bottomed out! ack! Yeah it should handle much better now. I'd recommend finding someone with some corner scales who knows how to use them and getting the corner weights done properly, which is the real point of having adjustable coilovers.

I'd use the motul 600 over the super blue. The tint is convenient for easily telling when things are flushed, but the motul's dry and wet boiling points are significantly higher. It does cost a bit more, though it's nowhere near as pricey as Castrol SRF.
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Old 07-18-06, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene
I'd use the motul 600 over the super blue. The tint is convenient for easily telling when things are flushed, but the motul's dry and wet boiling points are significantly higher. It does cost a bit more, though it's nowhere near as pricey as Castrol SRF.
I wouldn't say "significantly" higher, but yes higher. It's also more hydroscopic requiring more maintenance. This is why I suggested ATE for a dual purpose car. The fluid will hold up just fine in the FD and require a lot less complete flushes. If it's a track only car, then yes I would run Motul on it.
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Old 07-19-06, 12:11 AM
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oh that was you out there with the blue and white car?? Glen built you motor right?? I worked with him over at Yaw Power, and he was telling me about your car. I shoulda checked it out when I was there.
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Old 07-19-06, 08:16 AM
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Yep. I need engine tuning to get a little more out the motor, but it runs great.

As far as the track only vehicle, it is really hard to drive on the street when it is 500 degree kelvin, without ac! These cars take a lot self control to drive on the street.
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Old 07-19-06, 12:50 PM
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those spring rates are not optimal for the FD which is the reason the rear felt lively its rare that equal spring rates on the front and rear work on almost any car...

search on threads about 'spring rates' from howard coleman a former SCCA GT1 racer and FD owner. You would probably be better off with spring rates around 500lbs front and somewhere mid-300s to 400s on the rear. max cooper also had a few interesting posts about spring rates. you might need to revalve those shocks for the lower rate springs.
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Old 08-11-06, 06:02 PM
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Brakes-air ducting

you need to duct air on those brake calipers, they just dont cool off after hard use, let me guess they last about five laps then go off.
JLS
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Old 08-12-06, 11:04 PM
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N-tech sells a brake ducting kit.

Darkslide, if you need stock-sized slotted and/or drilled rotors, shoot me a PM.
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Old 08-12-06, 11:16 PM
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Try some real track pads and brake fluid before you do anything else. ATE super blue, AP 600 (what I use), and Castrol are all good.

Nicks (N-Tech) Comp. or lapping days are good. Hawk blues are good if you deal w/ the dust. PFC 93's or 01's up front w/ 90's or 97's rear are probably the best if you have the cheese.
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Old 08-13-06, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gracer7-rx7
those spring rates are not optimal for the FD which is the reason the rear felt lively its rare that equal spring rates on the front and rear work on almost any car...

search on threads about 'spring rates' from howard coleman a former SCCA GT1 racer and FD owner. You would probably be better off with spring rates around 500lbs front and somewhere mid-300s to 400s on the rear. max cooper also had a few interesting posts about spring rates. you might need to revalve those shocks for the lower rate springs.
There is no abosute spring rate for any car.

It depends on many things such as tire size, tire grip, car weight, shock quality, sway bar size, overall chassis stiffness etc....

For example you can run some pretty low spring rates 400 300 or 500 400 with stock size tires but once you move to some 275 40s or 285 30s you'll need heavier springs, sways, sway supports etc..... to keep the car neutral and your tires out of the fenders.
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Old 08-13-06, 10:25 AM
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You are correct Fritz. That is why I said "not optimal". He's using the box stock Tein springs at a matched 800lbs front and back. Most FDs will exhibit a tendency for oversteer with spring rates that high front and back especially if using a rear sway bar.

For a good HPDE driver I think a better starting point would be something like 550f and 450r rates on that suspension and wheel/tire setup (255mm wide 17"). I just re-read the title and realized he said Club Racing so that is outside my realm of knowledge. Probably a little higher spring rate could be beneficial higher depending on driver preferences but I still think a matched front/rear spring rate when using a rear bar with his other specs will lead to a lively rear.

Ride height seems to work well around 25" to the top of the fender. I'm at 25.25" - 25.5" since my car sees lots of street time.
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Old 08-13-06, 10:15 PM
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OK, I just ran over the weekend with the following adjustments:
1. New super blue brake fluid.
2. EBC Yellow Pads
3. Ride height adjusted up and aligned to the Pettit Racing Short Track Specs.
4. Boost set at a constant 11-12 psi. It was pretty hot and I ran no more than 190F on the H20.
Overall, the car ran really good. This car is really fast. I stiffened up the front clickers to 7 and the rears to 4 and it held good until the tires got heat. My breaks were kinda weird, First I thought they were gonna fade, then they just held. I started breaking really late and they never went away. Things are feeling really good and I did not get to run the Time Attack this time. The next event is in September at Phoenix International Raceway. Nascar turns 3 and 4 with the infield to do some right turns.
Thanks for the input to all who posted.

I have the Yoko Ao48's and they seen kinda hard compared to my friends RA1's. Are they not hot enough or maybe overheating? I don't know.

Here's my car!
http://www.drive-fast.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=149


Its red and down near the bottom.
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