Speed Raycer

Hmm.. With the above statement insinuating that you could use 4130 and not TIG it... or TIG it only for better quality over MIG , I'm surprised by your resume.

I'll yield to your #'s as I haven't got that many under my belt, but I'll stand by every statement that I've made.

redzone001

i would never MIG weld 4130 and i can only think of one of the cages that i have done that i mig welded. in that case the material was ERW.

tims

I think everyone has strayed from the question. The real answer is get the rulebook for the sanctioning body you plan to race with(don't rely on fabricators to have all the rules, these guys build stuff for many different applications and can be expected to know all the rules). Use the materials and construction procedures required by the sanctioing body. If you don't understand what the rulebook is saying be sure to call or email the sanctiong body with your question. most are very helpful when contacted. All the techniques mentioned can and have been used with good results to build cages. as with alot of things there are many different ways to skin a cat. My personal suggestion: go to a couple events in your area with the sanctioning body you want to race with and talk with the local racers and ask who does there work, drop by the shops recommended, ask the shop some questions, and participate in the build. making sure you have proper clearances for helmets, window net mounts, steering wheel disconnects, seat mounts, and seat braces(if required). getting all the small stuff done right first will save you money down the road. if you want to do it yourself do the same thing only observe what some of the other racers have done to their cars to help give you a direction with your project. ask the shops what type of machinery they use. most racers are very proud of there cars and love to give all details including how they did it. go to the track and make some friends. good luck on your project

Blake

Tim, I agree with everything you said, except the part about not relying on the fabricators to know the rules. The good fabricators know the rules as good or better than the techs, though it are the techs who obviously have the last word. Anyway, the experienced fabricators have had their stuff scrutinized hundreds of times and know the nuances to the rules that can't be picked up by simply reading the lines; a lot of stuff is between the lines, owing to intent of or even a lack of clarity in the written rule. For example, until this year, there was the issue of minimum tube size when one or more tubes could not meet the bend requirements (e.g. a main hoop cannot have more than four bends, totalling 180 degrees). If you, say, put a peak in the center (fifth bend) or had to jog the tubes to conform to the body, or whatever, the rules said something about requiring the use of the tube spec'd for the next higher weight class (thicker wall or larger diameter). However, it was not totally clear if only the affected tube or the whole cage had to be upgraded. The fact of the matter was that the whole cage needed to be upgraded, but damned if I could find that definitively spelled out in the rule book in 2004! Russ, of course, was addament that it meant the whole cage. Low-and-behold, the 2005 GCR is very, very clear on this point, proving him right (...not that I doubted him). Russ also shows me a lot of work that comes into his shop that had been approved recently, despite obvious and very serious flaws...crimps in bends, poor welding, or just plain bad design. Not just old work from a more lax period that is grandfathered-in, but new stuff by back-yard cage fabricators (and even some "legitimate" shops) that got past the techs. Some of these examples include GT1 cars!

What I'm saying is, if you find a good, experienced fabricator, you may put your trust in them to guide you through satisfying the letter and spirit of the rules as well as to convince the techs of that fact. And, you can't rely entirely on the techs catching poor design or fabrication, so be wary of inexperienced or underskilled fabricators. Talking to the other racers, as you suggested, it a great way to find the people you can trust.

Russ, by the way, has hosted the Oregon Region SCCA annual tech day in his shop for the last few years, so you can understand that he is on a first name basis with the techs and often calls them about a particular project just to get clarification on a sticky point before a tube is bent. That is the kind of fabricator you should look for in your area. Ask to see their GCR (or whatever applicable rule book for you form of racing and sanctioning body) before hiring them. Even the 2005 copies should be dog-eared and dirty with fingerprints by now, probabaly with a bunch of notes in the margins. They should also be able to refer you to many of their customers so you can go check out their cars at the track and ask them questions about the experience. In Russ's case, that would be almost the entire front half of the regional Spec miata grid, just for starters.

tims

that is is great that your area has a top notch fabricator that is heavily involved with the SCCA, but what if I needed a cage and some work done for and NHRA car or NASA, the rules are not always the same? Some areas have great fabricators and welders that can build most anything, but they specialise in one area and this might not be the area you intend to race in. Do your own homework and if parts of the rulebook are unclear, such as the roll cage bend specs, contact the sanctioning body. What if the fabricator is wrong? will he redo the work to make it right for free? doubtful. I am glad you have someone you can trust and it looks like the guy stays on top of stuff, but others may be to busy to read up on the rule changes. just make sure you do it right the first time it will save you alot of money.

cagedruss

Blake is almost embarrassing me, but I do appreciate the accolades. I am currently working on 3 projects in the shop now. (1) SCCA Prod. Alfa Romeo, (2) NHRA 9 second Supra, and a (3) 69 Camaro Street Touring Mini Tub Project. I have been to a lot of Shops in the country and most fabricators I have met have with a broad range of experience. Most shops need to be open mined in doing more than one type of cage. Shops go through busy and slow periods in a year like other business do, versatility is a must .

If you are needing a cage done or race car fabricating work, check out the local tracks, asked around and get some recommendations from other car owners and the tech's. Find the shops, asked for customer recommendations from the type of class you are interested in. See if the shop will guarantee the work to pass Tech. Look at pictures of past projects or see what the shop is working on at that time. Don't be to discouraged about a bad reference from somebody about a past project, most fabricators get better with time, and you simply can't make everyone happy.

I have see some awesome Road course cages fabricated by stock car shops and vice versa. Look for well thought out designs and try to keep away from exotic bends, gets the techs nervous, And each tech is different in his or hers evaluation or interpretations of the rules.

Russ

Blake

Exactly. That's why I specified "good" and "experienced" fabricators; not Joe Blow Fabricator who just hangs out a shingle. Finding them is the trick, so you have to do the networking at the track with other people who have been through the same experience. Certainly some good fabricators specialize to the point they couldn't help you outside their expertise, but they will tell you up front and be able to refer you to someone who is qualified...and a peer referral even better than a customer referral, as it would be based on a larger reputation; not just one job.