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Which bodykit has been Wind tunnel?

Old 01-10-05, 01:02 PM
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Which bodykit has been Wind tunnel?

I was wondering, because I've been reading a post on the general 3rd gen... but I feel the same way about a bodykit, I do not want a body thats all glammers and no utility and frankly i would like to know which bodykit has been proven to efficiently break the wind correctly and at the same time create downforce on the car. Which is best ?
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Old 01-10-05, 01:58 PM
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All the parts from MAZDA spees had been testing.

the RE amemiya parts work very well in the race or time attack in japan. but they did not testing in wind tunnel
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Old 01-11-05, 06:42 PM
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maybe some of the older IMSA body kits from Mazda comp have been in a wind tunnel but I doubt it. none of the current "veil side" stuff is likely to have been tested by anything other than the "butt" dyno. "yea, it feels like it has more downforce"
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Old 01-11-05, 08:48 PM
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all mazdaspeeds have been street driven over 130mph. those i know of are mainly for aerodynamics other than looks
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Old 01-12-05, 12:40 AM
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Tim, can you actually comprehend any of this or did you just take an educated guess at what the subject matter was?
If you can, would you mind translating into "highschool graduate" speak for the rest of us?

Thanks,
Chris
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Old 01-12-05, 09:28 AM
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If Mazdaspeed's parts have been wind tunnel tested then where are the results of said testing? It would be nice to see what the actual down force, drag, etc. of the parts are.

With that said I do have a Mazdaspeed front lip and a Mazdaspeed wing. I just have never seen any "real" numbers. The car seems more stable over 160 (land speed races, not on highway), but that is on the butt dyno.
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Old 01-12-05, 04:00 PM
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Race teams that do wind tunnel testing guard their data; they will not share.

The sad part is that after the older cars are no longer racing in the pro ranks that they do not go ahead and release this data to us amateurs who still race these old models.

Aero testing is very difficult to get accurate numbers at anything less than full scale testing; about 1/3 scale is the smallest model that can be used for wind tunnel testing. Aero testing is very expensive. In 1981 thru 1983, I worked as a designer at the Air Force's wind tunnels near Tullahoma, Tennessee. Wind tunnel time is very, very expensive.
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Old 01-12-05, 06:46 PM
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If anybody wants to learn about aero, including homebrew aero, pick up a copy of Race Car Aerodynamics by Joseph Katz. There's even a few graphs and some aero numbers on stock FC's and FD's.
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Old 01-12-05, 10:26 PM
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Chris,

Unfortunately this section always has some people who are more street oriented than hardcore racers. The type of aerodynamic testing we are looking for is dowforce and drag. If any of the Mazdaspeed parts were tested in a wind tunnel there would be individuals in the racing community that would have this information. I know of one maker of body parts for Mazdaspeed and I know for a fact his parts have not been tested in a wind tunnel. they have been evaluated for effectiveness on the race track but that is all. Years ago Mazda was very heavily involved in racing in IMSA and might have paid the money to test some of the IMSA spec bodies. "testing" at 130 mph is to make sure the parts don't fly off at speed, and that is about all.
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Old 01-13-05, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by tims
"testing" at 130 mph is to make sure the parts don't fly off at speed, and that is about all.
That would not be good. At least not for the guys behind you. You could eject a body panel at the end of the race and force a yellow.......never mind.

Interesting point on this topic, the SCCA is now allowing factory wings to be used in E Production. What factory wing choices do 1st gen' s have? The only factory wing I can recall is the "anniversary edition" wing. I wonder if that would help downforce at speed.

I found this pic of a first gen wing. It's not the SE wing?? I wonder if it has a factory part #.
Attached Thumbnails Which bodykit has been Wind tunnel?-1st-gen-wing.jpg  

Last edited by cpa7man; 01-13-05 at 06:54 AM.
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Old 01-13-05, 01:24 PM
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Paul - I saw that in FasTrack and immediately thought, "I wonder if Paul's seen this".

You could always tack a PepBoys wing on it and say, "It came like that. Really."
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Old 01-13-05, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by christaylor
Paul - I saw that in FasTrack and immediately thought, "I wonder if Paul's seen this".

You could always tack a PepBoys wing on it and say, "It came like that. Really."
Thank's for the good thoughts Chris. I need to do some research and get a list of all factory 1st gen wings. Now if only the IMSA wings had oem part #'s.
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Old 01-13-05, 08:30 PM
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I would put absolutely no faith in anybody's wind tunnel "testing" unless I saw numbers. Just because somebody stuck a car in the tunnel doesn't mean anything. The performance of the parts could have been absolutely horrible but yet you can still walk out and tell everyone it was "wind tunnel tested"!
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Old 01-13-05, 09:00 PM
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I went on the mazdaspeed website of japan and it talked about the FC & FD rx7 saying that its made to be stable in excess of 200mph



this is what they said about the mazdaspeed fd kit! ( know this thread is for fc's but still good information



For 2002, Mazdaspeed created this RX-7 R-spec version, a car designed to incorporate the latest racing technology enabling it to reach 300kmh and yet be street-legal.
The new parts tree offers new front and rear bumpers, a slotted vented hood, side skirts, door mirrors and a raised rear wing.
The 18in Mazdaspeed MS-01S wheels are represented by 18in Rega Master wheels fitted with Bridgestone Potenza RE711 tires.





the pictures are the kits that they say are tested, not from wind tunnel but from actually driving the car at high speeds
Attached Thumbnails Which bodykit has been Wind tunnel?-fuj18715.jpg   Which bodykit has been Wind tunnel?-fujlp14.jpg  

Last edited by darkphantom; 01-13-05 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 01-15-05, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by christaylor
If anybody wants to learn about aero, including homebrew aero, pick up a copy of Race Car Aerodynamics by Joseph Katz. There's even a few graphs and some aero numbers on stock FC's and FD's.
he was actually one of my profs when i was an undergrad at hopkins
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Old 01-15-05, 06:01 PM
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Aerodynamics is always of interest. It's amazing how politics plays a huge role in keeping information from the layman...

From the article below: "Despite their widespread use (effectively universal in the case of new cars), wind tunnels tend to keep their secrets. Sure, some data is released, but manufacturers are notoriously wary of releasing any information that might cast a negative light on their models. "


This is interesting... http://www.autospeed.com/A_1080/cms/article.html

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Old 01-16-05, 07:46 PM
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Well also remember that slapping a kit/wing on a car and putting it in a wind tunnel is meaningless without all the data on the car. Wheel size, ride height, and deatils ad nauseum will affect the numbers. Hell you could remove the side mirrors and not tell anyone and the cd numbers would look good. Hell even waxing it would improve the numbers I bet. Theres a couple of good links on the net on homemade wind tunnels if you search. If I only had the room! Muahahahahaha.
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Old 01-17-05, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by tims
Chris,

Unfortunately this section always has some people who are more street oriented than hardcore racers. The type of aerodynamic testing we are looking for is dowforce and drag. If any of the Mazdaspeed parts were tested in a wind tunnel there would be individuals in the racing community that would have this information. I know of one maker of body parts for Mazdaspeed and I know for a fact his parts have not been tested in a wind tunnel. they have been evaluated for effectiveness on the race track but that is all. Years ago Mazda was very heavily involved in racing in IMSA and might have paid the money to test some of the IMSA spec bodies. "testing" at 130 mph is to make sure the parts don't fly off at speed, and that is about all.
Tims,
I think that the folks here are speaking of the genuine Japanese MAZDASPEED products from Japan, as noted below, and not the MazdaSpeed Motorsports Development stuff meant for the racers here in the USA. Although both of these groups carry the same name, they are totally different. So, I would assume you know one of the makers of body parts for Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development, not the actual Japanese Factory MAZDASPEED body parts stuff. And yes, some of the IMSA stuff was tested back in the day, but it still lacked full aero development, until the factory racers of the mid/late 80s to early 90s.

Cheers,

-Bern
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Old 01-18-05, 11:00 AM
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neat article. I wish it was $30.00 to read the rest of it!


Originally Posted by 13b_drifter
Aerodynamics is always of interest. It's amazing how politics plays a huge role in keeping information from the layman...

From the article below: "Despite their widespread use (effectively universal in the case of new cars), wind tunnels tend to keep their secrets. Sure, some data is released, but manufacturers are notoriously wary of releasing any information that might cast a negative light on their models. "


This is interesting... http://www.autospeed.com/A_1080/cms/article.html

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Old 01-19-05, 12:11 AM
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Bern,
I know several manufacturers of Mazdaspeed parts, Japanese and American. Mazda does not build most of the non OEM parts. they use outside vendors to make parts for them exclusively and I can guarantee if any of the body kits used for racing had been evaluated for drag and downforce by any of these manufacturers the info would have been available to various racing teams over the years. this type of info could not be kept secret for the last 20 years, it would not need to be. The 80's and 90's IMSA kits were likely tested by race teams like Clayton Cunningham who had big bucks and was being paid to win championships by several manufacturers. That is likely why Mazda started selling this body kit through its motorsports department. There is likely seat of the pants or data aquisition testing of body parts by alot of racers. monitoring lap times, cornering speeds, and straight away speeds. as well as driver feel, but I doubt anything more than that. it is just to expensive to test parts for a 20 year old car in a wind tunnel. the part would be very expensive and the manufacturer would have to sell a large quantity to make any money.
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Old 01-19-05, 12:52 AM
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I help out with some fab work on a team that races Formula 500 cars. Well.. they manufacture them.
They have done a lot with aero.. I keep referring to things ad bodywork.. and they refer to it... cant remember the specific term.. but they say basically.. the bodywork is there to keep the air out of the car.

Now.. that being said.... it is really kinda humerous cause they have a rear diffuser that is prolly 5 feet in length that goes under the car into a tunnel.
They also pull in excess of 3.5 G in some corners on certain tracks. Sooo yeah it keeps the wind out... but does sooo much more.

They DID have a new nose designed a few years ago IIRC.. and they DID have a person with much aerodynamics knowledge design the nose. I do believe that he took cad designs of the car and bodywork and then re-designed the nose to be more efficient.

I also fitted CF wheel discs for the runoffs 2004 for several of thier cars.. IIRC they figured 3-4 MPH top end with them fitted.

There are a lot of ways to see the aero on cars.. mostly the path the air is taking while the car is moving.. however.. seeing this is not really of any use. Basically if you were to get the aero via tufts of yarn method on a car via... say 60mph speed.. and video taping from a 2nd vehicle a safe distance back to not interrupt the airflow... you would need to be able to install multiple frontends on the car to see what effects each had on the airflow around the rest of the car.. You could also have ride heigh measurements at speed with and without to see downforce etc. BUT.. all that takes money to discover. PLUS... that is giving you data at 60 MPH... if you have a smooth deserted road etc. Also you need money to start it all.. (multiple bodywork kits)

Basically... use your brain picking one that does what you want from it.
More air into the rad?
Brake Ducts?
Strake down low with the chin spoiler that applies downforce?
Did you give more rearward downforce to guess compensate for it?

Unless you have cubic dollars.. as many above were hinting at.. use a best guess as to what you think will happen. Picture pushing it through water. What will happen? Is it what you think you want?

(Sorry to ramble)

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Old 01-19-05, 02:30 AM
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Originally Posted by tims
Bern,
I know several manufacturers of Mazdaspeed parts, Japanese and American. Mazda does not build most of the non OEM parts. they use outside vendors to make parts for them exclusively and I can guarantee if any of the body kits used for racing had been evaluated for drag and downforce by any of these manufacturers the info would have been available to various racing teams over the years. this type of info could not be kept secret for the last 20 years, it would not need to be. The 80's and 90's IMSA kits were likely tested by race teams like Clayton Cunningham who had big bucks and was being paid to win championships by several manufacturers. That is likely why Mazda started selling this body kit through its motorsports department. There is likely seat of the pants or data aquisition testing of body parts by alot of racers. monitoring lap times, cornering speeds, and straight away speeds. as well as driver feel, but I doubt anything more than that. it is just to expensive to test parts for a 20 year old car in a wind tunnel. the part would be very expensive and the manufacturer would have to sell a large quantity to make any money.
Tims,
I think that you misunderstood me... I'm not sure what AMERICAN companies you speak of, that make genuine MAZDASPEED body parts for the Japanese MAZDASPEED Division. Again, I'm not talking about exclusive comp parts sold through the US MazdaSpeed Motorsports Development (formerly Mazda Comp) department, like the AWR stuff for instance. I have the last few MAZDASPEED Japanese catalogs, and I can tell you that most of these parts are not even available through the USA MazdaSpeed Motorsports Development (formerly Mazda Comp) department.

Ok now onto the USA IMSA scene. Yes Clayton and few other teams had access to "some" of this aero information, but remember that most of the IMSA Mazda teams, including Clayton, were private and not factory supported, and as such the factory didn't share every bit of info. The teams, which were highly skilled race car shops, mostly developed their own body work. I'll tell you that when Mazda brought factory teams into IMSA, in the form of the GTU MX6s and GTO FCs (4-rotor) and the GTP 792P, there was definitely some aero-work done by the factory. Also, I think that the factory IMSA GTU/GTO FC bodywork was developed by Mazda in Japan and sold here to teams starting in 86-87 or so. The first gen IMSA kits, were mostly developed here in the USA, by private companies; think Racing Beat, Kent, etc..

Another issue for SCCA racers, is that most of the later IMSA kits are not even legal for any of the current division. I think Benny ran into this problem.

Remember that MAZDASPEED (formerly a division of Tokyo Auto - Mazda Dealership) has been developing race cars and bodywork for LeMans since the late 70's. Think 717, 727, 737, 757 racers. The earlier LeMans race cars were based on production models, too. And MAZDASPEED has a legacy going back to the RX-2s and 3s.

I'll PM you my #, so we can talk further about this very intriguing subject if you'd like. We're local to each other in NH, so maybe we can even grab a cup of coffee.

Cheers,

-Bern
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Old 01-19-05, 10:14 PM
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Bern,
We are debating subjects that are not relevant anymore really(this not meant to be an argument). Clayton Cunningham and Overton racing and others were factory teams sponsored and paid for by Mazda. As soon as Mazda quit paying these teams were racing other makes or were retired. Clayton went on to race Nissans and others. I am aware of the Mazdaspeed lineage and there are alot of parts that were built by them for Mazda vehicles, but some of the cars listed were built by other race car manufacturers like Lola and March. My shop is still in the NH/Burbank area but I recently moved to Canyon Country. give me a call and stop by the shop some weekend.
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