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Autocross Stock Class wheel details

Old 04-28-05, 07:43 AM
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Autocross Stock Class wheel details

I'm doing E-stock with my 86 GXL, and looking to pick up another set of rims. But I can't remember the rules for things when different car models in different years had different tires. The GXL (non-turbo) had 15x6, but the GTUs (non-turbo) model had 16x7.. so can I run the GTUs wheel and be stock class legal? I get confused with different classes having different trimline rules.. anybody know for sure? or have a good link to a good explanation?

From the 2005 Rules "Mazda - RX-7 (non-turbo) (all) - E Stock (ES)"

Thanks..
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Old 04-28-05, 07:58 AM
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I would run Vert Rims, lightest wheel out there
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Old 04-28-05, 08:19 AM
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Stock class by definition insists the car must run the wheel size which came with its trim package. For instance if you had a C5 you must run its factory wheel size, you cannot switch to wheels from a Z06 even if it's the same year model.

If your car is a GXL you must run GXL wheel sizes. You can't run the GTU wheel size unless you actually transform your car into a GTU first. Stock class rule says the wheel must be of stock size but they will give you a 1/4" allowance on the offset. You may use spacers to make the installed offset correct if required.

You may run any wheel of any design or manufacture as long as it's the same diameter and width as supplied from the factory for that model car and the offset is within a 1/4" of stock. You are not allowed to trade parts between different year models either. If a later model of the same trim package had wider wheels you still couldn't run those because they weren't available when your car was built.

Last edited by DamonB; 04-28-05 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 04-28-05, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
Stock class by definition insists the car must run the wheel size which came with its trim package. For instance if you had a C5 you must run its factory wheel size, you cannot switch to wheels from a Z06 even if it's the same year model.

If your car is a GXL you must run GXL wheel sizes. You can't run the GTU wheel size unless you actually transform your car into a GTU first. Stock class rule says the wheel must be of stock size but they will give you a 1/4" allowance on the offset. You may use spacers to make the installed offset correct if required.

You may run any wheel of any design or manufacture as long as it's the same diameter and width as supplied from the factory for that model car and the offset is within a 1/4" of stock. You are not allowed to trade parts between different year models either. If a later model of the same trim package had wider wheels you still couldn't run those because they weren't available when your car was built.
What he said! See the rules here:
http://www.scca.com/Solo/Index.asp?IdS=007F6B-5A2FF30&x=050|070&~=

the bottom line, Just get out there and have some fun. The rest will fall in line!
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Old 04-28-05, 12:18 PM
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Oh, I'm already out there... I just forget how annoying autocrossing rules can be... "Rule Book Racing" indeed...

The S5 GTUs is a better car in all autocrossing respects compared to my car, and we're in the same class.. but if I use his wheels, I'm bumped out of class.. ugh. The difficulty of running stock class on an older car is annoying... and the GXL's LSD means no STS2 for me.. I'm farked for finding a class (other than stock) that won't consume big $$$ with modifications...

It really is true and sad that if you want to autocross competitively, you need to buy a car for it. But, I guess it's just the nature of the beast these days. I suppose there are some cars where you could make a better car than any version originally offered by cherry-picking between trim lines.. I wonder how often that happens, though? Anybody have some good examples to console me?

I'm moving past the phase where "it's fun just to be out there".. and I'm getting more interested in really developing/measuring skills and winning.. and I'm frustrated with the byzantine rules that mean people who want to autocross competitively buy a specific car for it (or go to a class where they can replace nearly everything in the car with a gargantuan expenditure of time, effort, skill, and money)

There's more I'd say, but it all comes out as more "grumble, grumble, grumble, whine, whine, whine".. :p
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Old 04-28-05, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MechE00
There's more I'd say, but it all comes out as more "grumble, grumble, grumble, whine, whine, whine".. :p

Quit whining and go out there and drive the wheels off the thing I'm running in SS against 400 horsepower Z06 with wider tires and I still beat most of them the majority of the time. It is entirely possible to have a great time without winning.

As for classing you start out with a loaf of bread that encompasses nearly every car made, then you slice it into classes. You can only slice so thin and if every car had the chance to be dominant you'd have to have a thousand spec classes; one for each individual car. If you really want to dominate then you have to build to the rules, same as in any other sport.

Last edited by DamonB; 04-28-05 at 12:43 PM.
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Old 04-28-05, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
As for classing you start out with a loaf of bread that encompasses nearly every car made, then you slice it into classes. You can only slice so thin and if every car had the chance to be dominant you'd have to have a thousand spec classes; one for each individual car. If you really want to dominate then you have to build to the rules, same as in any other sport.
I'm not asking for more classes, actually. I'm saying 'allow swaps of certain components (wheels, sway bars, springs, and maybe a few others) between trimlines class, so long as all trim lines involved are classed together'. I (ignorantly) expect such a policy would very rarely generate a car that is greater than available trimlines in that class. Instead it would almost universally allow the lower trim line models to come closer to the higher trimline vehicle without passing it.

So, instead of separate classing between the base model and the GTUs and the GXL, just allow swaps of tires/suspension so that the GXL, etc., can approach the GTUs performance level. If the GTUs is appropriately classed, the GXL with GTUs parts would also be appropriately classed, but it will be closer in performance to the GTUs meaning more competitive autocrossing...

Anyway, if you (or anybody else) know of any glaring "swap between trimlines of the same class"-creates-supercar examples, I'd be eager to hear about them.. then I could dispel my ignorant belief that this would/could be a good idea.

Actually this didn't originally start out being a thread to suggest autocross rules changes (joining many millions that came before).. but I'm curious now.
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Old 04-28-05, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MechE00
I'm not asking for more classes, actually. I'm saying 'allow swaps of certain components (wheels, sway bars, springs, and maybe a few others) between trimlines class, so long as all trim lines involved are classed together'. .
All of that is allowed, just not in stock. If that's what you want to do you run in street prepared.

Originally Posted by MechE00
So, instead of separate classing between the base model and the GTUs and the GXL, just allow swaps of tires/suspension so that the GXL, etc., can approach the GTUs performance level.
Impossible. You're talking about having to make different rules for nearly every car made. If you think the rules are complicated now just try to imagine creating and policing what you described.

Originally Posted by MechE00
Actually this didn't originally start out being a thread to suggest autocross rules changes (joining many millions that came before).. but I'm curious now.
Be completely familiar with all the rules and class types before griping The SCCA rules are now available online in pdf format. Read them.

http://www.scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2005SoloRules.pdf
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Old 04-28-05, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
All of that is allowed, just not in stock. If that's what you want to do you run in street prepared.
Street Prepared = $$$ and a whole lot of work. That's a barrier to entry to people.

Impossible. You're talking about having to make different rules for nearly every car made. If you think the rules are complicated now just try to imagine creating and policing what you described.
I think I'm talking about one rule. Swaps of rims, springs, and bars (anti-sway and strut) would be allowed between trim lines if the trim lines are classed together. Pretty simple. No?

What I'm really looking for by continuing to participate in the conversation is the concrete example to show me why that idea is such a bad one. Then I can put it out of my mind. Fear not, I have no hope of SCCA autocross rules "reforming" for my sake! I'm not that much out of touch with reality. :p

Be completely familiar with all the rules and class types before griping The SCCA rules are now available online in pdf format. Read them.
http://www.scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2005SoloRules.pdf
The fact that studying the rules is such an intensive task is a common gripe about SCCA autocross in and of itself!
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Old 04-28-05, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by MechE00
The fact that studying the rules is such an intensive task is a common gripe about SCCA autocross in and of itself!
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Read the rules first and then come back and ask questions.

Last edited by DamonB; 04-28-05 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 04-28-05, 03:31 PM
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I just build what I want and run in whatever class they see fit to throw me in. Hlaf the fun is trying to watch them figure out what class a P-Ported 86 SE with 5 Lug suspension and coil-overs run in. If I wanted to play rules games I'd get a Formula V and go wheel to wheel racing, but my driving isnt that good
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Old 04-28-05, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by banzaitoyota
I just build what I want and run in whatever class they see fit to throw me in. Hlaf the fun is trying to watch them figure out what class a P-Ported 86 SE with 5 Lug suspension and coil-overs run in. If I wanted to play rules games I'd get a Formula V and go wheel to wheel racing, but my driving isnt that good
Sooo True.

Its real simple.

If you cant afford to buy a "newer" RX-7 to be more compettitive in the class.. you are NOT going to Topeka.

It is real simple.. the people going for the national championship either have a car that is in a non-stock class that is tweaked to 10-10ths.. OR buy the hot seat car every year.. with just the right options.

What you SHOULD do... since you dont have the budget for a new car..

Do things to your car that YOU WANT. Dont worry about the class it puts you in.. worry about how fast YOU are going... not how fast "beaker" with his over dialed in autocross only trailer queen goes.

Make the car for you.. and your wants... cause Every year new cars are classed in stock that are the hot ticket.. if you can drive it well. So you are always behind the curve in Stock. No matter how good you drive.. someone with a little better car.. and almost as much skill will win.

Another idea... wanna stay stock? Invest in some light stock size rims and autocross tires.... You will be amazed at the difference. (Didnt read if you already had some sorry)

Whenever I autocross.. which isnt very often anymore.. I just bring a car.. whatever car I want to flog for that weekend.. be it the vert, the sport, the ITA.. whatever.. just bring something.. and have fun. SHoot I even took my wifes (Long gone) 6 cylinder camaro once back in the early 90s cause my RX-3 was down.

Dont sweat it too much... I autocrossed a Oldsmobile Firenza Station Wagon when in college.. and bought a Grant 13" wheel.. and the tech **** (Terry Keller) made me run in DSP instead of H Stock against him.. because my 14" steering wheel had some plastic stitching that if you measured it JUST right.. it was 14 1/8-14 1/4" So I was changing steering wheel diameter by more than 1" so he wouldnt let me run H Stock. Yep I was new.. I shoulda said protest me.. but didnt know much back then.

Just have fun.. Dont sweat the little stuff.
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Old 04-28-05, 04:19 PM
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Half of me races to have fun. The other half likes to win.

The problem with building what you want is that you wind up classed into something you might not win. And losing is only fun for so long.

you don't need to buy a new car. you just need to buy the right car and then have fun.
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Old 04-29-05, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by SPiN Racing
... not how fast "beaker" with his over dialed in autocross only trailer queen goes.
That is great.

It describes me pretty much.

I can think of a few others that fit the description even better though.
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Old 04-29-05, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Read the rules first and then come back and ask questions.
....I've read the friggin rules.. alright? I originally asked the question because it had been a long time since I'd read them in depth (I have the 2002 or 2001 book, I think), and different classes have different rules which I don't have perfectly memorized. Further, when I started out autocrossing, the car I was using did not have options for different wheel sizes so I didn't particularly remember that fricking detail. I was lazy and rather than find my old book or go hunting through the web for a pdf to download and hunt through, I thought I'd ask a question that I thought someone could give a ready answer to in this forum.

The answer has been given for my original question, and I don't deny that that is the correct answer. Fine and dandy... I then went on to ask people to shoot down my hypothetical (that I admitted comes out of hollow kvetching), because it would make me feel better to hear it (with a specific example).

I respect you for your other postings, but I don't appreciate what I perceive to be condescension towards me. If you don't have an example for me of a "super-car" that can be made from cherry picking between same-class trimlines, then that's fine.

Originally Posted by SPiN Racing
Do things to your car that YOU WANT. Dont worry about the class it puts you in.. worry about how fast YOU are going... not how fast "beaker" with his over dialed in autocross only trailer queen goes.
The problem with this idea is that it removes the yardstick. I want people to compete against and people who are competing against me. Say I decide to put on GTUs rims and go out autocrossing.. Now I'm not in E-stock, even if I still think E-stock should be my yardstick. So when the MR2 or the Miata throws down a 56.700 and I put out a 56.651, they aren't going to care.. that's not going to push them to drive harder if the rest of the E-stock guys are 57.500 and up.. I'm just off in my own imaginary class. Whoopidedoo.. shoulda saved time and money and played a video game or done some on-the-street assclownery. It's a bit like the difference between the Olympics and the Special Olympics.. (that's a good cue for DamonB to make a joke on me! heheh)

Of course the real problem is that I'm a cheap bastard, and I don't want to spend the money to buy the "right" car or pay what's necessary to be competitive in the other classes my car could fall into. But if I weren't a cheap bastard, I'd be doing Spec Miata or Formula Ford or Rotax or something.. so...

Ah well, it's not a perfect world, and I have no delusions that I can fix it. An example of the cherry-picked supercar (as defined earlier) would cheer me up, though..
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Old 04-29-05, 09:20 AM
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GSL-SE Drivetrain in an SA Shell.

More power and lighter, LSD, Disk brakes. This would be the ideal 1st gen for ES.
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Old 04-29-05, 11:50 AM
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Mech,

I understand you issues. However, you need to think beyond Mazdas. You cannot allow stock cars to swap wheels, springs and sways because in other makes and model allowing such would give them advantages over other makes with fewer production models or no performance models to choose from.

For example, any corvettes would be allowed in A-Stock to use any Z06 performance options? I think it opens up a very nasty can of worms which would end being a signficant problem for the stock class, and would exclude even more cars from being competitive (not to mention the addtional costs).

Just my .02.

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Old 04-29-05, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by RotaryAXer
GSL-SE Drivetrain in an SA Shell.

More power and lighter, LSD, Disk brakes. This would be the ideal 1st gen for ES.
thanks for an example, but ...umm... I was more just talking about the STS level of variability, not engine/drivetrain swaps...
Originally Posted by MechE00
Swaps of rims, springs, and bars (anti-sway and strut) would be allowed between trim lines if the trim lines are classed together.
Originally Posted by MechE00
I'm saying 'allow swaps of certain components (wheels, sway bars, springs, and maybe a few others) between trimlines class, so long as all trim lines involved are classed together'
But I guess I was narrowly thinking that first gens and second gens wouldn't be swapping things out, and I can't think of a simple and universal way to write the rule to prevent it.. so that pretty much shoots it down on a "complexity" fault right there.

Thanks!
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Old 04-29-05, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MechE00
....I've read the friggin rules.. alright? ....
The answer has been given for my original question, and I don't deny that that is the correct answer.
Then what are you carping about? You've established that you don't like the rules and that's perfectly fine. Just realize that they are what they are and if you plan to compete with anyone running under SCCA rules then that's what you must be prepared to live with.

Everything you wish to do with your car you can legally do, just not in stock. For some reason you wish for a specific exemption in the case of your ES FC and that just isn't going to happen.

I haven't attacked you or inferred anything about your level of intellect, I'm just telling you that the rules are pretty clear and no amount of wishing or wanting will transform them into something you decide you can accept. They are what they are.

Last edited by DamonB; 04-29-05 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 04-29-05, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DamonB
For some reason you wish for a specific exemption in the case of your ES FC and that just isn't going to happen.
Actually, I made a specific effort to make it clear that I did not expect anything to change just because of my temporary frustration. I obviously failed, though...
e.g.
Originally Posted by MechE00
Fear not, I have no hope of SCCA autocross rules "reforming" for my sake! I'm not that much out of touch with reality. :p
Heck, I seem to have even failed to communicate what my flawed idea was in the first place, as everyone's suggestions (for which I am actually grateful) don't comply with what one or the other of the two principle definitions of the idea were -- they want to suggest the problems of swaps across classes and they want to suggest drivetrain swaps.

Ah well, thanks for the help and all the good intentions.. sorry for the trouble all.
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