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Another harness question

Old 05-09-07, 09:45 AM
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Another harness question

Is it safe to use a 5 or 6 point harness without the anti sub belts on a stock seat or seat without a cutout for the anti-sub belt (ie: use it as a 4 point)?

Is it safe to use a 4 point harness for non-competition HPDE-type stuff? I have heard mixed stories.

Basically I need seats and harnesses. I have a track event in a week and a half and I was thinking of buying the harnesses now and using them with the stock seats until such time as I can test-sit and purchase some appropriate race seats.

Thanks!
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Old 05-09-07, 11:11 AM
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Do you have a rollbar? If not, most people discourage the use of harnesses without rollbars.

I have used a 5-point on the stock seats without the cutout. It doesn't not provide the proper protection, but it does work.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
Do you have a rollbar? If not, most people discourage the use of harnesses without rollbars.

I have used a 5-point on the stock seats without the cutout. It doesn't not provide the proper protection, but it does work.
Yea, M2 bar.
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Old 05-09-07, 01:54 PM
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M2 rollbar or just the harness bar?

If you aren't going to run the anti-sub belts, I would wear the stock seatbelts in addition to the harness (never a bad idea anyway).
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Old 05-09-07, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rynberg View Post
M2 rollbar or just the harness bar?

If you aren't going to run the anti-sub belts, I would wear the stock seatbelts in addition to the harness (never a bad idea anyway).
Street bar with single diagonal and harness bar.

That begs the question is a 4 point harness with no anti-sub any LESS safe than the factory 3 point seatbelt at the track?

Last edited by ArmitageGVR4; 05-09-07 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 05-09-07, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ArmitageGVR4 View Post
That begs the question is a 4 point bar with no anti-sub any LESS safe than the factory 3 point seatbelt at the track?
Most track sanctions would say yes (if you mean 4pt harness and not 4pt bar that is). Most of the ones I attend will not allow 4pt harnesses on the track. Those owners are typically required to use the stock belts instead.
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Old 05-09-07, 11:50 PM
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I know a few guys who have 6 points with stock seats and they just run the anti sub belts off to the sides under your legs. It works well and isn't uncomfortable.

Max Cooper had this setup in his FD:

Originally Posted by maxcooper View Post
I've got a 6-point harness that I clip to the same eye bolts as the lap belt using the stock belt mounting holes. I put the sub straps through the space where the seat bottom and seat back meet and sit on them before they come up through my legs and attach to the bottom of the buckle/camlock. The sub straps are joined at the ends by a single plate that clips into the camlock.

The only thing I don't like about this setup is that it doesn't hold you as tightly in the vertical direction as a "straight down" sub strap setup would. Especially for short folks like me that have the seat more forward of the lap/sub belt anchors than a tall person would. But I believe the sub straps would serve their purpose in the event of an accident by preventing me from sliding out under the lap belt.

Note that the standard harness mounting eye bolts somewhat amazingly thread right into the stock holes -- I guess the seat belt bolt attachments are a federal regulation or something like that, hence the standard (non-Metric) threads.

-Max
Here's the thread: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=harness


Personally, I plan on running a 5-pt with my racing seat in the driver's side and keeping the stock seat with a 6-pt harness for the passenger. I know this is generally frowned upon by track officials, but my car is still a street car and not everybody can fit into a small racing seat. There are also some 'chunky' instructors out there. lol
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Old 05-10-07, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by afterburn27 View Post
I know a few guys who have 6 points with stock seats and they just run the anti sub belts off to the sides under your legs. It works well and isn't uncomfortable.

Max Cooper had this setup in his FD:



Here's the thread: https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hlight=harness


Personally, I plan on running a 5-pt with my racing seat in the driver's side and keeping the stock seat with a 6-pt harness for the passenger. I know this is generally frowned upon by track officials, but my car is still a street car and not everybody can fit into a small racing seat. There are also some 'chunky' instructors out there. lol
Hrm, good stuff. I may do this for now then, install 6 pointers with my factory seats and then worry about upgrading the seats when I find the right ones. Thanks!
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Old 05-10-07, 10:43 AM
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why would you keep the stock seats and run racing harnesses. if your going to do that buy aftermarket seats and you dont have to go with expensive sparco seats apc makes really nice seats and with the cutouts
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Old 05-10-07, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NO PISTONS View Post
why would you keep the stock seats and run racing harnesses.
Fitting aftermarket seats into a 3rd Gen is not day in the park. Also, most people don't have dedicated track cars, so they want to have seats they can be comfortable in on the streets as well as being "held" in driving position on the track using a harness. There are trade-offs you have to manage when making the car dual purpose (street/track).
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Old 05-10-07, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by NO PISTONS View Post
why would you keep the stock seats and run racing harnesses. if your going to do that buy aftermarket seats and you dont have to go with expensive sparco seats apc makes really nice seats and with the cutouts
I have a track event in 1 week and I'm sick of sliding around all over the stock seats. Bracing myself for 30 minutes straight hurts my back something awful. I am not prepared to buy racing seats till I've sat in them and that won't happen between now and next week, but I can get harnesses any time. Moreover, I would not trust my life to an APC seat in an accident.
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Old 05-10-07, 11:07 AM
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I tried running a 6-point with the sub straps running back through the split in the seat, and to be honest, it totally scrunched my nutz. I hated it.

With a stock seat, try a CG lock. I'm running one now even with my EVO, and I may just stick with it. I haven't bought a 5-point to try yet w/ the sparco, but I may not bother.
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Old 05-10-07, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post
I tried running a 6-point with the sub straps running back through the split in the seat, and to be honest, it totally scrunched my nutz. I hated it.

With a stock seat, try a CG lock. I'm running one now even with my EVO, and I may just stick with it. I haven't bought a 5-point to try yet w/ the sparco, but I may not bother.
...Evo? What's this Mitsubishi nonsense about then ;P

The stock seat situation should be temporary and when I replace them the harnesses should be able to be routed properly. I've never used a CG lock, I always assumed it was kind of a gimmick. Guess it's worth looking into, thanks.
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Old 05-10-07, 11:38 AM
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SPARCO EVO.

It's not a gimmick, it really works pretty well, and is comfortable/easy to use.
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Old 05-10-07, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by ptrhahn View Post
SPARCO EVO.
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Old 05-10-07, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NO PISTONS View Post
...apc makes really nice seats and with the cutouts
Please feel free to stay in the ebay section instead of the race tech forum....
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Old 05-11-07, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mahjik View Post
Fitting aftermarket seats into a 3rd Gen is not day in the park. Also, most people don't have dedicated track cars, so they want to have seats they can be comfortable in on the streets as well as being "held" in driving position on the track using a harness. There are trade-offs you have to manage when making the car dual purpose (street/track).
Well fitting aftermarket seats in the drivers side isnt hard but putting one in the passenger side well thats a different story that can be difficult
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Old 05-11-07, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by rynberg View Post
Please feel free to stay in the ebay section instead of the race tech forum....
i didnt get mine from ebay
plus i was thinking of getting different ones because apc seats are really heavy

plus whats wrong with ebay
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Old 05-11-07, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NO PISTONS View Post
Well fitting aftermarket seats in the drivers side isnt hard but putting one in the passenger side well thats a different story that can be difficult
The FD doesn't have the same amount of space as an FC. Finding seats which are comfortable for the owner, can fit the owner, can fit in the car, and can fit the owner's budget is the hard part.
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Old 05-11-07, 04:56 PM
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Out here, last I checked, NASA requires that if you run race safety equipment, you're required to have all of it. So run a harness, you better have a roll bar and seat back brace. Maybe that rule has relaxed lately, it's been about a year since I've been out there.

in any case, I'm 100000% sure they will not allow you to run harnesses without a correctly installed anti submarine belt(s). Don't even waste your time asking them.
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Old 05-12-07, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Silkworm View Post
Out here, last I checked, NASA requires that if you run race safety equipment, you're required to have all of it. So run a harness, you better have a roll bar and seat back brace. Maybe that rule has relaxed lately, it's been about a year since I've been out there.

in any case, I'm 100000% sure they will not allow you to run harnesses without a correctly installed anti submarine belt(s). Don't even waste your time asking them.
The last part is true, although I have seen some people slip by with four points. Rare though...

And they like you to have a rollbar if you are running a harness and vice-versa. They do not require a seat back brace as far as I know.

This is for HPDE events BTW. (I work for NASA)
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Old 05-12-07, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by afterburn27 View Post
The last part is true, although I have seen some people slip by with four points. Rare though...

And they like you to have a rollbar if you are running a harness and vice-versa. They do not require a seat back brace as far as I know.

This is for HPDE events BTW. (I work for NASA)
How does NASA view the Schroth 4 Point belts with ASM?
ASM = AntiSubMarine

Schroth sews a loop in the inboard harness strap. This is
used to prevent submarining.

http://schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal/1611

All rather academic for me, as there are no NASA events in Portland OR that I am aware of.
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Old 05-12-07, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jkstill View Post
How does NASA view the Schroth 4 Point belts with ASM?
ASM = AntiSubMarine

Schroth sews a loop in the inboard harness strap. This is
used to prevent submarining.

http://schrothracing.com/products/streetlegal/1611

All rather academic for me, as there are no NASA events in Portland OR that I am aware of.
I haven't heard anything about that harness, so I can't answer your question. I would guess that they still want you to have a real anti-sub belt(s). With NASA mid-atlantic it is pretty much up to your instructor to determine what is safe. If they don't feel comfortable riding in your car then you are screwed.
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Old 05-12-07, 01:42 PM
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I'd feel a lot safer in a real 5+ point setup, or the 3 point belts vs. a 4 point. When you crash the shoulder belts pull up on the lap belt, moving it up into your gut, potentially causing some nasty internal injuries.

If you want to be held in better, get the belts to lock (tug on them quickly) then buckle up. It works decently well.
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Old 05-12-07, 01:58 PM
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Well I made the decision to try out the 6 point. They're all installed now more or less per the instructions linked to above. I got quick detatch kit/eyebolts for all points. Sparco seems to have purposely designed the eyebolts so that you can only secure a single point to each so connecting the anti-sub belt to the lap belt mounting points was a no-go.

I improvised by mounting the anti sub belts to the factory seat mounting points. The antisub only has to support a maximum load of 800lbs (versus the 3000lbs of the other belts) divided by two so that seems like an okay idea for now.

Ptrhahn was right about the antisub being uncomfotable. This is only a temporary setup till I can get real race seats though. I retained the stock seatbelts as per above as well which is nice. 60 seconds to remove all the harnesses and stick em into the rear bins. Finally found a use for those things!


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