Well, everything looked okay. I got my fuel looking safe and what should have been a nice conservative timing, but somehow got a detonation event. Haven't pulled the plugs and listened to the compression yet, but given the detonation in the log and the symptoms, pretty sure it is down for the count. Now I want to figure out what caused it so I can keep it from happening next time.
Just download the following links, one to the log and one to the .dat file. I had a detonation event of like 97 with a AFR of 10.xx at less than 10psi of boost. Any advice on what could have caused it?

http://aaronemmons.home.comcast.net/...ns/testing.txt

http://aaronemmons.home.comcast.net/...ns/testing.dat

 

One question I have is my boost readings. I topped 5 psi but what does a reading of 38 mean under boost in fc-edit? I am wondering if that was my problem. Is my sensor bad or way out of wack? My n row was 12 and p row 13. This isn't the right area for boost of 5-10 psi is it?

I need to figure out why my motor blew. If I can find the cause, than I will rebuild and try again. If I can't, then I will start looking into other options.

 

From your logs it looks like your afr's were in the 9's at low boost and even vacuum. Thats crazy rich, are you sure you didn't just foul your plugs? I forget the exact numbers but I think that 38 should read more like .38 like the commander, and converts to roughly 5.5psi, I think 1.00 = 14.5 but can never remember the odd unit of measure PFC/fc edit uses. What are your symptoms?

 

"detonation event of like 97 with a AFR of 10.xx at less than 10psi of boost."

you were at 4406 rpm.
your ignition was 16 and minus 3.
that puts you between P11 and P12.
about 11,500 on your PIM scale

boost was 1.65 PSI, not 10 PSI.

you had a similar isolated knock event earlier in the log at 5100 rpm

your fuel (based on base fuel map and correction) and ignition look o k.

in both cases there is ONE isolated knock reading and i note you got out of the throttle in just a few tenths of a second... good driving.

water and air temps are o k

battery voltage is not interrupted

IDC at 35% 5100 rpm and 31% 4406 RPM seems o k

i looked at the overall Map setup and nothing jumps out

i am assuming something really bad did happen to your engine due to the two isolated knock readings....

are you certain you actually have an engine problem? the 38 and 93 single readings normally don't result in a broken engine.

i doubt your MAP sensor line is off because you continued to get MAP readings after the incident.

assuming your engine was hurt i would look V carefully at your fuel. perhaps bad gas. are you running AI? what are the details re your ignition?

give us a list of your complete setup.

howard

 

Hi,

For my education, can someone help me to understand the 30 values in IGN Dwell ?

Thanks !

 

i doubt your MAP sensor line is off because you continued to get MAP readings after the incident.

assuming your engine was hurt i would look V carefully at your fuel. perhaps bad gas. are you running AI? what are the details re your ignition?

give us a list of your complete setup.

Hmm, back on topic...

What I meant by my MAP was if it was just way out of wack. According to my Boost gauge I was up between 5 and 10 psi.

I am not running AI. I run premium and always get it from the same place because I can get it without ethanol in it. My ignition is stock TII ignition. NGK bur9eq all the way around and brand new magnecor wires.

Engine is a medium street port, all emissions removed other than BAC. New turbo, hybrid t04b 60-1 hifi and p-trim turbine. Wastegate ported as much as possible. 3" downpipe, presilencer, dual n-1. Boost controller installed but turned off. LC-1 wideband recently calibrated. Front mount intercooler. Uh, anything else pertinent?

I am trying to get a compression test but haven't been able to yet. Hope to get that verification soon.

 

What map sensor are you using? Your map is set to the apexi map sensor.

thewird

 

the map sensor correction varies by manufacturer so it is important to have the correct setting and manually test it by hooking up a gauge with a pressure hose to pressurize the line and correlate if the sensor is reading accurately in the PFC if something is standing out as wrong.

P01-P10 are your vacuum maps
P10-P20 are boost areas up to approximately 17.3PSI
each cell from P10-P20 adds ~1.73psi above atmospheric pressure when using the correct 2 bar PIM settings.

so if you were in fact getting up to 10psi then you should have been reading off of the P16 cells, look at the timing figures lower in the P cell range and you will see that it is running a more advanced timing figure because the ECU isn't seeing a severe load. also assuming you are running this on the '89 GXL listed under your user title, is this a swap or are you using the stock S5 n/a rotors which are 9.7:1?.. if this is all true then running the setup without race gas or auxiliary injection was purely a bad idea anyways. high compression turbo engines need alot of coddling to work well.

 

When I bought the PFC it came with the map sensor and all other necessary parts. I was informed it is an Apexi 3 bar map sensor. I tried finding part numbers to verify this but did not have any luck. Is there a way to verify which sensor it is?

I bought a JDM motor and rebuilt it. The motor is using s5 turbo rotors. I recently rebuilt the motor with new housings and the reinforced s5 rear iron.

 

you'd have to manually test it to see if it reads up to 3 BARs or not, perhaps there is an easier way to tell by a visual inspection but not that i know of and generally why i dislike so many manufacturers who do not label their parts.

 

Based on all available information, there is nothing in your tune that would cause your engine to blow. If there was a detonation event, the problem lies elsewhere but based on a single line in the log reading high knock I wouldn't give up just yet as that appears on many cars just from noise. However, your next step would definitely be compression test so you can then decide what to look at next.

Since this is a 2nd gen, did you verify your timing with a timing gun?

thewird

 

Plan is to pick up a compression tester on my way home tonight. Will verify and post results. Don't have a rotary specific tester so will be working with a standard compression tester.

 

The normal compression tester is perfectly fine to check if its blown. Most of the time you can also do it by ear when cranking with the plugs out.

thewird

 

Yeah, I am picking up a battery charger/starter from a buddy on my way home also. I tried listening and the front sounds fine and the rear sounded weaker but even. Was having a hard time telling for certain though as the battery is pretty weak at the moment.

I have seen discrepancies as to what should be seen by the compression tester. 3 even pulses is fine, but where should they be? Rotary resurrections website claims three pulses of about 35psi but Banzai claims up above 90 per pulse. Also what should I expect it to come up to when I reinsert the schrader valve given that the engine will be cold?

 

75psi is about the minimum with a conventional piston compression checker. ideally it should be between 90-120psi with even pulses on both rotors with close to the same figure between each rotor.

 

Do the test and report back the numbers. Better yet, make a video if you can. Generally if they're even, its good. Ive seen testers read to varying degrees where I don't believe the actual number is as important as the pulses just being even. Unless we're talking about the OE Mazda tester which is really just a novelty for builders.

thewird

 

I agree that there is nothing obvious in the map or the tune. You weren't even pushing it. Check the plugs and make sure the timing is correct. Timing pulley must match the timing hub (be from the same engine) or the marks will be wrong. Make sure the timing in the PFC is at -5L -20T when checking with the timing light. Post a pic of your 3 bar MAP sensor. Does it say Denso on it?

also, on the subject of "what does a boost of 38 mean" , I think it either means 0.38 kg/cm^2 or 0.38 bar .

 

Front: 3 pulses at or just above 90 psi
Rear: 2 pulses at about 30 one at or just above 90

Weird because listening to it they sound fine, but there are the pulses. Now I have to figure out what actually happened.

I have a mityvac on order that will do boost and vacuum to check my boost gauge and map sensor. I am going to hook up my air compressor in the meanwhile and see what I can find out for now.

Drives me crazy that everything looks fine but obviously something wasn't.

 

Time for rebuild ^

thewird

 

Doesn't make sense. This only had less than 1500 miles. Rebuilt it myself with new housings. I don't know if I am going to rebuild or not. If I can't figure out what caused the problem, than I am going to look elsewhere. Love the rotary, but if I can't figure out why it blew, I am not going to do it again. Will inspect it and check the map sensor to see if it is out of whack. Hope I can figure it out, because I love the rotary.

 

chipped point of a single long apex seal. this is why the poor man's compression test should be laid to rest, because it's very poor at telling internal engine conditions.

 

And this is why I will be going to a small block chev if and when something bad ever happens again to my rotary

 

Well, I have to clean up enough area in my shop to get the engine back in. I will tear it down, see what I find, and report back. I really want to make this work.

 

Have you tested the map sensor ?, Seems like the only anomaly from everything you have posted is the Map sensor, I would check that, also as stated above.

As you are running this setup with a S4/s5 FC motor, did you lock ( sync) timming correctly ?

the sync part is VERY crucial with the FC motor setup.

 

Yes, I did the timing on initial start up. I will be checking the map sensor one I get the Mityvac.