Power FC FD Power FC Installed in S5 FC3s
05-05-06, 03:31 PM
#26
Banzai Racing
Thread Starter
05-05-06, 09:36 PM
#30
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
That is EXCELLENT work! I have a few notes and maybe some corrections.
First, instead of cutting/soldering the wires, it's much easier to back the pins out of the connector and swap them around. Here's my writeup on doing it -
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/how-pulling-pins-ecu-connector-424626/
Speaking of, there are 4 wires that are cut in an FD PowerFC install. These are for features the JDM cars don't have that the US cars do have. The pins in question (the FD pin numbers) are 3J (EGR switch) 40 (EGR solenoid) 4F (Split air bypass) and 4P (Accelerated warmup system). Apexi USA says to cut these 4 wires or you could have problems with the PFC. I'd stick with that plan
. Personally, I back the pins out of the connector and tape them up - very clean.
The heat hazard sensor is more to it than you'd think. The PowerFC uses this as a warning light - it will light if there's too much knock or injector duty cycles go over a preset amount. This is a really neat feature. The reason it's the exhaust overheat light is the FD's ECU has no direct control over the FD's check engine light - it's part of the ELD (Electrical Load) computer. That's fine in Japan, where the warning light is by the cluster, but in the US the warning light is like the FC's light, under your elbow. So, it's worth re-wiring this to make it more useful - tapping it into the check engine light in the idiot light cluster on an '89-91 would be slick. Here's more info on that system -
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/hopefully-making-pfc-warning-light-function-useful-534888/
Also on that same plug is the air pump relay output. The FD's air pump/air control system is upgraded from the FC's. The air pump in particular has a magnetic clutch, like an AC compressor. The ECU will engage the air pump when it's needed, and it's automatically disengaged at high RPM. The FC's of course runs all the time. For anyone who actually has to mess with emissions, I really don't think this wire is applicable on the FC. BlueTII has it going to the air pump relief. If you're worried about passing emissions and having an operating air pump system, you're gonna have to do your own homework on this one. There's enough difference with the FD's air control valve and ACV solenoids to make things interesting.
In the wiring diagram, there's mention of the speed sensor signal. This is pulled from the cruise control plug on the FC by the driver's left foot. Even if you don't have cruise, that signal will still be there. You just have to run a wire from that pin over to the cruise control unit and tap into that wire - good to go.
One spot on the wiring diagram that I have some trouble with is related to the ELD stuff. Again, this is Electrical Load, talkin' FD talk. The FD has an ELD computer - it's a small box by the ECU that has a number of inputs for it to determine electrical load. Inputs include headlights, rear window defrost, blower switch (if the fan speed is at 3 or 4 on the AC), and the water thermoswitch, which if that's tripped means the FD's electric fans are running and adding an electrical load. The FC has some of the ELD functionality built-in to the ECU. If you really wanted to go all the way, get an FD ELD computer and plug and wire it up. The ECU compensates for electrical load at idle by bumping the idle up and keeping the car running smoothly.
On that note, the wiring I have issues with is -
FD 4O to FC 3L. 4O is the EGR solenoid, which should be disconnected for the PFC. 3L is FC headlight switch, which could be used for the ELD computer if you have it.
FD 3J to FC 3P - 3J is the EGR switch, which again should be a cut wire per Apexi USA. FC 3P is the rear window defrost signal, which again could be used for ELD.
FD 3B to FC 3O - 3B is the FD's ELD input. The ELD computer outputs to this pin to let the ECU know if there's an electrical load condition. FC 3O is the blower switch output, meaning the blower motor is on. Might be worth picking one of the electrical load inputs (like the headlights) and tapping it to FD 3B.
Some notes on electrical connectors. First off, the junkyard is a KILLER place to find connectors. Pretty much any '90s Mazda will have a LOT of the same connectors - shouldn't be too hard to find one for an FD boost sensor or an FD intake temp sensor. Speaking of, FD boost sensors are likely a dime a dozen used - many FD guys upgrade to higher range sensors, and they RARELY if ever go bad. If you are gonna use any of the FD's sensors, just take them with you to the junkyard and hit up 626's, 929's, Miatas, etc. That's also a great source for '89-91 style fuel injector connectors.
The other biggie - if you don't want to track down an '89-91 harness with the plugs, look into this -
http://www.autosportwiring.com/products.htm#Mazda
These are "between" harnesses that go in between an ECU and a stock harness. The idea is to use them to tap electronic gizmos into. But, you could easily buy the '89-91 FC harness or the FD harness and use it to wire things up. This could also be a solution for making this work on an '86-88 FC - buy the harness, tap the appropriate wires into the right place, and you're ready to rock. That very possibly would be cheaper than getting a whole '89-91 FC harness. Also, the junkyard again might be a good solution - I have a feeling Mazda used those same ECU connectors in many cars they built, so you might be able to cut you one out of the junkyard.
OK, that's my long post for the week. Again, Chris, this is MOST excellent work. I'm truly surprised no one's hit upon this sooner! I'm now surrounded by shop manuals - I went through all this pin by pin. This is too cool!
Dale
First, instead of cutting/soldering the wires, it's much easier to back the pins out of the connector and swap them around. Here's my writeup on doing it -
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/how-pulling-pins-ecu-connector-424626/
Speaking of, there are 4 wires that are cut in an FD PowerFC install. These are for features the JDM cars don't have that the US cars do have. The pins in question (the FD pin numbers) are 3J (EGR switch) 40 (EGR solenoid) 4F (Split air bypass) and 4P (Accelerated warmup system). Apexi USA says to cut these 4 wires or you could have problems with the PFC. I'd stick with that plan
. Personally, I back the pins out of the connector and tape them up - very clean.The heat hazard sensor is more to it than you'd think. The PowerFC uses this as a warning light - it will light if there's too much knock or injector duty cycles go over a preset amount. This is a really neat feature. The reason it's the exhaust overheat light is the FD's ECU has no direct control over the FD's check engine light - it's part of the ELD (Electrical Load) computer. That's fine in Japan, where the warning light is by the cluster, but in the US the warning light is like the FC's light, under your elbow. So, it's worth re-wiring this to make it more useful - tapping it into the check engine light in the idiot light cluster on an '89-91 would be slick. Here's more info on that system -
https://www.rx7club.com/power-fc-forum-47/hopefully-making-pfc-warning-light-function-useful-534888/
Also on that same plug is the air pump relay output. The FD's air pump/air control system is upgraded from the FC's. The air pump in particular has a magnetic clutch, like an AC compressor. The ECU will engage the air pump when it's needed, and it's automatically disengaged at high RPM. The FC's of course runs all the time. For anyone who actually has to mess with emissions, I really don't think this wire is applicable on the FC. BlueTII has it going to the air pump relief. If you're worried about passing emissions and having an operating air pump system, you're gonna have to do your own homework on this one. There's enough difference with the FD's air control valve and ACV solenoids to make things interesting.
In the wiring diagram, there's mention of the speed sensor signal. This is pulled from the cruise control plug on the FC by the driver's left foot. Even if you don't have cruise, that signal will still be there. You just have to run a wire from that pin over to the cruise control unit and tap into that wire - good to go.
One spot on the wiring diagram that I have some trouble with is related to the ELD stuff. Again, this is Electrical Load, talkin' FD talk. The FD has an ELD computer - it's a small box by the ECU that has a number of inputs for it to determine electrical load. Inputs include headlights, rear window defrost, blower switch (if the fan speed is at 3 or 4 on the AC), and the water thermoswitch, which if that's tripped means the FD's electric fans are running and adding an electrical load. The FC has some of the ELD functionality built-in to the ECU. If you really wanted to go all the way, get an FD ELD computer and plug and wire it up. The ECU compensates for electrical load at idle by bumping the idle up and keeping the car running smoothly.
On that note, the wiring I have issues with is -
FD 4O to FC 3L. 4O is the EGR solenoid, which should be disconnected for the PFC. 3L is FC headlight switch, which could be used for the ELD computer if you have it.
FD 3J to FC 3P - 3J is the EGR switch, which again should be a cut wire per Apexi USA. FC 3P is the rear window defrost signal, which again could be used for ELD.
FD 3B to FC 3O - 3B is the FD's ELD input. The ELD computer outputs to this pin to let the ECU know if there's an electrical load condition. FC 3O is the blower switch output, meaning the blower motor is on. Might be worth picking one of the electrical load inputs (like the headlights) and tapping it to FD 3B.
Some notes on electrical connectors. First off, the junkyard is a KILLER place to find connectors. Pretty much any '90s Mazda will have a LOT of the same connectors - shouldn't be too hard to find one for an FD boost sensor or an FD intake temp sensor. Speaking of, FD boost sensors are likely a dime a dozen used - many FD guys upgrade to higher range sensors, and they RARELY if ever go bad. If you are gonna use any of the FD's sensors, just take them with you to the junkyard and hit up 626's, 929's, Miatas, etc. That's also a great source for '89-91 style fuel injector connectors.
The other biggie - if you don't want to track down an '89-91 harness with the plugs, look into this -
http://www.autosportwiring.com/products.htm#Mazda
These are "between" harnesses that go in between an ECU and a stock harness. The idea is to use them to tap electronic gizmos into. But, you could easily buy the '89-91 FC harness or the FD harness and use it to wire things up. This could also be a solution for making this work on an '86-88 FC - buy the harness, tap the appropriate wires into the right place, and you're ready to rock. That very possibly would be cheaper than getting a whole '89-91 FC harness. Also, the junkyard again might be a good solution - I have a feeling Mazda used those same ECU connectors in many cars they built, so you might be able to cut you one out of the junkyard.
OK, that's my long post for the week. Again, Chris, this is MOST excellent work. I'm truly surprised no one's hit upon this sooner! I'm now surrounded by shop manuals - I went through all this pin by pin. This is too cool!
Dale
05-05-06, 09:49 PM
#33
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Originally Posted by hotfd3s
Great info.
When doing this upgrade, I believe this would also be a great time to install an FD UIM on an S5.
When doing this upgrade, I believe this would also be a great time to install an FD UIM on an S5.
Dale
05-05-06, 10:10 PM
#35
This good to know. most of the guys I know in Japan use a FD harness from a parts car and put fd engines in their car.
one of the main points that im worried about is FD OMP is not the same as a FC's
so their might be some issue using the FC one.
yeah I have AP Engineering PFC in my car.
The Commander for the AP an FD are the same
one of the main points that im worried about is FD OMP is not the same as a FC's
so their might be some issue using the FC one.
yeah I have AP Engineering PFC in my car.
The Commander for the AP an FD are the same
Last edited by 87GTR; 05-05-06 at 10:13 PM.
05-06-06, 05:35 AM
#36
Banzai Racing
Thread Starter
Dale-We will leave the wiring diagram the way that it is. Just because Apexi says to remove those pins for the FD does not mean that this is so for the FC .Pins 4F and 4P are not used in this setup. The others work perfectly for this application.
Most people are not running the ACV which leaves only one wire needed for the plug #2.
My initial thought was the same for removing the pins, however there are several wires that are too short to make it to their new locations. For the purpose of this how to, to keep the procedure common for each wire, the cut and solder method was employed.
We created this pin by pin so I know how it feels to be surrounded by shop manuals and wiring diagrams. No one came up with this early because they did want to risk a $1000 ECU, or there were other people telling them it could not be done or they just never thought of it. So we decided to take the risk.....
The FD and FC OMP connections and voltage at the ECU are the same, so there are no worries.
We have thouroughly inspected both the FD and AP (FC) PFC units, they are identical. I even installed the AP unit into my FD, loaded my map and started it right up. The is no reason to spend the extra money for the AP unit just for a small patch harness.
BTW the Vert is running great, still in the process of breaking in the RE engine that we built for it.
Most people are not running the ACV which leaves only one wire needed for the plug #2.
My initial thought was the same for removing the pins, however there are several wires that are too short to make it to their new locations. For the purpose of this how to, to keep the procedure common for each wire, the cut and solder method was employed.
We created this pin by pin so I know how it feels to be surrounded by shop manuals and wiring diagrams. No one came up with this early because they did want to risk a $1000 ECU, or there were other people telling them it could not be done or they just never thought of it. So we decided to take the risk.....
The FD and FC OMP connections and voltage at the ECU are the same, so there are no worries.
We have thouroughly inspected both the FD and AP (FC) PFC units, they are identical. I even installed the AP unit into my FD, loaded my map and started it right up. The is no reason to spend the extra money for the AP unit just for a small patch harness.
BTW the Vert is running great, still in the process of breaking in the RE engine that we built for it.
Last edited by BlueTII; 05-06-06 at 05:51 AM.
05-06-06, 06:53 AM
#38
Banzai Racing
Thread Starter
Oh yeah there is no need for the FD ELD, we have taken that into consideration. The headlights, A/C, etc trigger the idle speed control which kicks the idle up.
The relief valve on the ACV and the FD AP relay work in the same fashion, they both stop activating above a certain rpm.
You may have also noticed that you can keep the stock boost solenoind and control the boost with the PFC. However, the stock solenoid is only so capable. The other option is to purchase the Apexi boost kit which gives their solenoid (wires into the same location as stock) and 3 bar map sensor, eliminating the need for a boost controller. It also supplies you with the needed map sensor so it kills two birds.
Note: The apexi map sensor is option 2 on the commander screen.
The relief valve on the ACV and the FD AP relay work in the same fashion, they both stop activating above a certain rpm.
You may have also noticed that you can keep the stock boost solenoind and control the boost with the PFC. However, the stock solenoid is only so capable. The other option is to purchase the Apexi boost kit which gives their solenoid (wires into the same location as stock) and 3 bar map sensor, eliminating the need for a boost controller. It also supplies you with the needed map sensor so it kills two birds.
Note: The apexi map sensor is option 2 on the commander screen.
Last edited by BlueTII; 05-06-06 at 07:07 AM.
05-06-06, 11:47 PM
#39
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Interesting....did you use the AP Engineering harness for figuring out some of the wiring? I wonder if the JDM ECU's didn't have a separate ELD computer and used the extra inputs that the US ECU's had to use for EGR and whatnot. If the PFC responds correctly to the inputs on those pins, that would make a lot of sense.
Having the whole air pump/ACV system working correctly (or at least good enough to pass a sniff test) could be a little more tricky, but I have a feeling the majority of FC owners who are looking into aftermarket ECU's have ditched the airpump and ACV.
Dale
Having the whole air pump/ACV system working correctly (or at least good enough to pass a sniff test) could be a little more tricky, but I have a feeling the majority of FC owners who are looking into aftermarket ECU's have ditched the airpump and ACV.
Dale
08-14-06, 05:54 PM
#43
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anyone know what, if any differences there are between the different series various sensors? i mean for instance is the series 4 cas the same as the series 5 and series 6? obviously the ait sensor is different, but how about adapting the s5 or s6 throttle and/or tps to the s4? i know that the injector plugs are different. what i am considering is rewiring the entire ecm harness connectors from an s4 to an s5 inorder to utilize the powerfc. what i havent fully figured out yet is how to adapt the tps signal from a s5 throttle to a s4 ecm, and i am unsure if there are any other sensors or whatnot that arent interchangable signal wise. there are a lot of us s4 guys running full block off or "racing" setups that only have the necessities left (injectors, mafs, boost sensor, knock box, baro sensor, cas, knock, bac valve, and ait are all that are left on mine) who could very possible benefit greatly from the ability to mere change out the ecm connectors with a s5, swap throttle bodies, plug in a pfc and go.
11-24-06, 04:01 AM
#47
Originally Posted by StarScreaM2k1
Damn if this can only work for a S4 
oh well... i'll stick to the emanage for now.
oh well... i'll stick to the emanage for now.http://www.rotary-imports.de/space/PFC_intall_FC.pdf
11-26-06, 02:05 PM
#49
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I think this is a nice alternative to Haltech or Microtech and I think it would be very nice for the community to have this as an additional option especially considering the price of the Power FC. Hats off to Banzai Racing for offering to provide the information free of charge.
03-04-19, 11:33 AM
#50
Sucker for Punishment
I'm gearing up to upgrade to an FD3S4 PFC in my S5.
I was doing some homework this weekend on the FD ECU and I noticed that the EL unit triggers idle adjustment while the s5 ECU has it built in.
My question is does FD 3B= FC 30?
FD 4O= FC 3L?
FD 3J=FC 3P?
This is just what I deduced judging on what Dale was saying.
Would it make sense to run these all to FD 1S(stop light)?
Also where is the aforementioned wiring diagram?
I was also wondering, like Dale, if there is some redundancy in the PFC that has available pins that could be used for the EL idle compensation.
Wires in question are rear defroster, headlights, blower.
Thanks for the help guys.
I was doing some homework this weekend on the FD ECU and I noticed that the EL unit triggers idle adjustment while the s5 ECU has it built in.
My question is does FD 3B= FC 30?
FD 4O= FC 3L?
FD 3J=FC 3P?
This is just what I deduced judging on what Dale was saying.
Would it make sense to run these all to FD 1S(stop light)?
Also where is the aforementioned wiring diagram?
I was also wondering, like Dale, if there is some redundancy in the PFC that has available pins that could be used for the EL idle compensation.
Wires in question are rear defroster, headlights, blower.
Thanks for the help guys.
Last edited by Rotary Alkymist; 03-04-19 at 11:38 AM.