$100T2

iTrader: (1)

OK, boys and girl (I think there might be a girl on this forum somewhere), let's have a reasonable, rational discussion.

No flaming, no bashing, no nonsense. No "Why would you take the rotary out" bullshit, no "******* rotard" bullshit.

Let's imagine a scenario:

You have a T2. The body is 99% straight. The interior is flawless. You want to make it faster, perform better. You have $7k to spend.

There are two options. We will ignore 20B for this discussion, because we want to keep the cost to a BARE MINIMUM.

We'll assume we will do our own work as much as possible.

The T2 is on it's original motor. That motor is over 100,000 miles. It's also, for the sake of cost inclusion, on it's original clutch. (Yeah, I know, it's pretend.) The exhaust is shot, as it is also original. Other than that, the driveline is completely normal and in good shape.

So, our two options:

Piston, or rotary. Our goal is at least 300 rwhp.

So, give me your cost by cost breakdown. Buy stuff new, buy stuff used, I don't care. Pick a pair of motors to do your comparison. Ford 5.0, 13BT, LT1, 13B-RE, whatever. Think of everything you would need to do to support your 300 rwhp setup... Lines, radiators, fuel pumps, bigger injectors, ECU, etc, etc.

Show us what you've got. Links to sources and prices are a plus.

photopaintball

photopaintball.com/car.html

im going to spend less than 5k and will have over 600hp pump gas no nitrous

ford 2300 turbo aka this:
http://www.merkurclub.com/Roush_Museum.htm

jimlab

Right. Good luck with that...

Whizbang

honestly for producing power levels of 300HP a stock LS1 is the way to go. Figure that the motor in the TII may have low compression or low compresison in the near future. so you rebuild the motor. Or worse pop a seal and have to rebuild the motor. Figure if you do it yourself, parts alone can run you between 500 and 1500 dollars depending on what reuseable. Then obviously, that would be an great time to port the motor to help in making a power goal. But you still effectively have a underrated turbo, fuel system, etc.

The ls1 would be a stock motor, with MUCH better gas mileage, reliebilty, etc. and if you have connections you can find a whole setup for about 2-3 thousand if you look hard enough. Even if you buy the swap kit, you still well under that 7 thousand price cap.

Now this discussion is based on us actaully wanting to make more power. if i had a really really clean TII i would probably just leave it stock. i only cut up / overpower crappy condition cars

Sovietcong

nvm

slo

iTrader: (1)

7K dollars is enough to by a pretty nice T2 that has allready been modded with far more than 7K dollars worth in parts and services.

Its far cheaper regardless of what engine goes in to buy something that is allready set up the way you like it.

On the cheap

A nice rebuild on your orig engine (1-2K), haltech E6k ( under 1K) Gauges and fuel system (~800), XTD clutch (150), ebay IC or JDM used intercooler kit (~400-450), BNR Hybrid turbo or masterpower T60 and ebay manifold (~800 or less), (exhaust 400-800), you could hit 350 WHP with resonable reliablilty. I think that would be the reasonable limit for a T2 engine without much in the way of internal mods.

88IntegraLS

My gut feeling is a built rotary is cheaper in the short run. My 5.0 swap is probably getting near $6k. It is reasonable to assume that 300whp is within reach on this budget. Rotary diehards have spent half that getting 300 at the wheels with (as was mentioned above) a jspec engine, haltech, injectors / fuel pump, manual boost controller, exhaust, etc.

OC_

god.. for 7k, you can put just about anything you want in there; as long as your doing all the work. The price of having some shop do it would be astronomical.

Yeah, I may not be getting 300whp, but my s2000 engine/trans/ecu cost me $3500. I dont know how much it cost me to put the engine in the car since i made the mounts with things i had laying around. I expect the final completion cost to be around $4200. But the swap is costing me a lot in time...

I think the cheapest way to go would be some sort of v8... its also been done a lot of times so you dont have to worry about inventing ways to get it in there.

stilettoman

iTrader: (1)

You have not stated what the purpose is - 300whp to beat the next guy at the stoplight? I think the appeal of the V8 is the torque, not the hp. Mine is an automatic (Ford 5.0, AOD). After 4 years of driving it, I would never consider a manual tranny for this kind of car.

If you go to a V8, I think buying a COMPLETE wrecked donor car is the way to keep it cheap. Unfortunately I did not, and it was in interesting and expensive learning experience.

2MCHPWR

iTrader: (2)

if you buy a wrecked f-body (firebird or camaro), you can part it out and then keep the ls1/t56/ECU for free almost

Whizbang

hell you can get a turbocoupe or an SVO for cheap and hit that goal as well as an alternative to the V8.

jkd4141

We bought a 91 Vert from a friend---dirt cheap, that had a shot rotary motor in it. It was for my 17 year old son as our first car rebuild learning project! We were going to rebuild the rotary motor, but it was my first experience with one, and had never opened one up before, and had v8's all my life, so after reading pros and cons for over 6 months ----WE DID just as this threads question stated, we wanted something very reliable, better fuel economy, fast and fun, and different! We bought an 02 T/A wrecked, and put the LS1/T-56 IN, AND HAD ABOUT $7500.00 TOTAL in the conversion, and alot of man hours and reading on the TORQUE CENTRAL site, Its no cheap project to do it right----after you buy a low milage LS1 SETUP FOR 5K, THEN THE ENGINE/TRANS. MOUNTS, FUEL SYSTEM, COOLING SYSTEM, SPEEDO RECAL, EXHAUST, ECT. ECT.--- YOU WILL SPEND ANOTHER 2.5K to get it running for the long haul, but after all the work I feel that we made A GOOD--NOT SURE THE RIGHT decision, and we just get an ear to ear grin everytime we drive or thrash the car, and still get 25/30 miles out on the highway. It is a conversation starter everytime someone hears it, or see it, AND WE FEEL PROUD THAT WE PULLED THE SWAP OFF! ---That our story to tell----no bull!

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

Heh.

2001 6.0L (LQ4) w/ 4L60e (RWD) w/ accessories, harness and PCM: 1500 dollars
Random swap parts: 2500 dollars (fuel, cooling, etc.)
Cam + springs: 350 dollars

Do your own work (who counts labor in these goofy threads anyway): 0 dollars

You can throw the cost of an FC shell in if you want: 500 dollars

So... 4,850 dollars, ~350 RWHP, ~375 RWTQ, and will outrun 9/10 cars on this forum, and have 0 fear of breaking anything other then the rearend in the car.

Where's the rotary guy to show me how simple this is with doritos?

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, ok.

Post up some dyno sheets and numbers when it's all done. We'll put it up with the rest of the fast 2.3 RX7s...

jimlab

The LQ4 wouldn't fit under the hood since it's a tall bastard (3+ inches taller than an LS1), but that can be fixed. You'd have to replace the intake and oil pan at a minimum, and while you're doing it, you might as well replace the heads if you're going to replace the cam too.

L92 heads (PN 12582713) - ~$825 (GMPP)
L76 intake (PN 12590123) - ~$540 (GMPP)
LS1 oil pan - ~$100-150 (ebay)

Add ~$1,500 and you'd be well over 400 RWHP after tuning, which would help make up for the extra 100 lbs. the LQ4 block adds.

owen is fat

sheesh this is an easy one!
sell the T2 motor/trans/turbo for $1500 (bonus loot!!!!).
buy a 1999 LS1 and T56 for $3000.
have Speartech reprogram the computer and modify the harness for $800.
buy a radiator and hoses for $300.
hinson mounts $400.
used z06 clutch/pp for $200.
corvette fpr/filter, hoses, new 7/8ths clutch master and line mod, cost $300.
have a shop make a dual 2.5" exhaust using $25 resonators (no mufflers), cost $500.
cold air intake tubes and bends and filter from ebay, cost $200.
steel Fbody LS1 driveshaft for $50 and have it modified for $75.
new vdo electric 160+mph speedo for $150. (youre gonna need it!)

geez there isnt anything else really, thats less than $4500 out of pocket too
there are little things but not hundreds of dollars worth of stuff I left out.
thats a cheap way to 300whp and its not much more money to reach $400whp, I guess the most expensive thing to jump to 400whp is the tuning time or software/wideband cost if you DIY tune.

digitalsolo

iTrader: (2)

Mr. Jim is quite right.

Add 200 bucks to my price for an LS1 intake and oil pan. You also have to adjust the water pump outlet slightly.

I like your parts list there Jim. They're sitting in my garage right now actually, albeit going on a 11.5:1 forged 370" LQ4.

capn

OK

Our little challenge doesnt really have a defined goal, yes we have $7,000 to spend and to get 300bhp. But what I do not see here is CHEAP = BETTER but I will assume such and go with the idea that SIMPLE = BETTER also.

So with the scenario at hand my T2 is running albeit I do not know for how long, so what I do I take the motor out and open it up. Since the engine was running when I pulled it out that means most of my moving parts will be in spec as far as wear goes. I then replace all the seals ($1170 via atkins ) Now since I will be inside the motor I might as well port it (since I am seasoned at this I do not need a template and have tools. So motor is rebuilt and ported for a reasonable price. Since engine is out I might as well replace the clutch and turn my flywheel while I am there (Clutch disk is $150 via Racing beat, Pressure plate is $209 also via Racing beat) since I know people I get the flywheel turned for free.

now since the actual engine is prepped and ready to go in I start to think about my power adders so first full exhaust I will go with Racing beat and will assume thier horsepower figures are accurate enough for us (Full Exhaust $850 Via Racing Beat). I have to breath well also so intake kit ($50 K&N Cone filter), I will then get a manual boost controller for the sake of argument my friend gives me one. I will then purchase a BOV for my awesome car now ($186 from rx7store.net ) While I am at it I will go ahead and purchase an upgraded turbo BNR stage one will be fine ($675 from rx7store.net ) and since its an upgraded turbo lets say we want an intercooler kit ($940 from rx7store.net )

So for the sake of the post length we'll say thats that and put a 20% contingency cost for random BS.

so this brings me to my Reciept:
Rebuild: $1170
Clutch: $359
Exhaust: $850
Intake: $50
BOV: $186
Turbo upgrade: $675
Intercooler kit: $940
Contingency: $1400

Grand total (with contingency): $5630
Grand total (less contingency): $4230

Now Horsepower
Rebuild puts us back up to our baseline of say: 195hp
Exhaust will net us the advertised: 60hp
Intake will say: 2hp
Turbo upgrade: 25hp?
Intercoller kit: 10hp?

HP total:~ 292hp

lets say with the pig rich tuning of the stock rx7 we net a few more hp from tuning and then so we net

300hp

so with all that said thats the rotary solution, gas mileage is a bit on the low side reliability of a fresh rebuild TII motor and some new goodies and $1370 left over for misc. stuff like wheels tires or what not. Now I think this is a nice solution because it has a very siplme procedure, no taking out of whole driveline, and you can reuse stock ECU and have a decently fast vehicle. so with that said here is my V8 solution:


Same scenario TII has a running motor, I will then sell said motor and trans for say $1300 (extra money). So with extra money that brings me up to $8300 in useable cash. Now I have to source an engine and tranny lets say we find a deal from ebay ($3000 for motor trans and ECU). Now that we have out engine and tranny combo we need to find a mounting solution we go to oh hinson and use thier solution (including new radiator and other hardware we opt for the aluminum driveshaft $2589). So now we have our engine and our mounts we then mount said engine and tranny in the car. and do all the labour ourselves. and we decide to throw in a new K&N filter and longtubes $500.

And as before we will put in the 20% contingency cost of unexpecteds.

So here is out receipt for the V8 swap:
Old Engine and tranny: +$1300
New engine and tranny: -$3000
Hinsons mounting solution: -$2589
Intake and Longtubes: -$500

Contingency: -$1400

Grand total (with contingency): $7489
Grand total (less contingency): $6089

So looking at the performance of the V8 swap lets take LS1 for example stock baseline is already above our goal and the intake and longtubes frees up another 15hp. so lets say 350hp for our final numbers here. overall the swap for the V8 is less technical and yields more power in a more reliable package and better MPG. That leaves us with roughly $800 in spare cash for tires or something unforseen.


SO inconclusion the Rotary version is less expensive but is more labor intensive due to the fact we're tearing apart a motor. The rotor swap will also yeild less power and less MPG. The V8 swap on the other hand is less labor intensive and less technical as we are just doing R&R on the engine and ECM. The V8 will yeild better power better MPG but, the only downside is that it is more then the other one tradeoff is that you get more. So basically if you feel that you want a straight forward and easy way to upgrade go with the V8, yet if you're looking to get down and dirty on a rotary and learn a lot about building one up then go for the rotary version, or if you love the turbo.



PHEW long winded

Cliffnotes:

Rotary = for people wanting a technical challenge.
V8 = for people that want a total package thats less technical and straight forward.

photopaintball

I will, even if you dont believe me now
But there are examples of what I will do
I am now aquiring parts for the volvo head conversion: Stainless steel valves, bolt spacers, gaskets, guides, seals.

Phil made 720HP with a volvo head conversion and snapped a t56.

Bo port made 511 hp on a STOCK BLOCK AND COMPONENTS with a bad tune. -the turbine started melting

Then he made enough to spin slicks in third (not dynoed) and his flywheel bolts were not locktited, so they worked themselves out and the flywheel snapped off

Hes putting a new flywheel and bell on and trying to break it again.

Joe made (on ethanol) 800hp on a stock block and crank.

Lots of people are still running over 400hp with a stock computer and block.


I will have new rods, rings, head, custom manifolds, no exhaust, hx40 turbo, edis, megaquirt and aux. injection.

The reason I'm keeping my price so low is that my school lets me use their shop and as much (reasonably, I cant take a truck load) aluminum/steel/titanium/lexan as I want for free as long as its a project for school -which my car is.

I also am a no compromises kind of guy. I will have a DD when I can afford it but for now I want my daily to be fast, so that means really fast. I mean, 4 puck racing clutch, stripped completely, 8 point roll cage, 4 hood pins for the 4 lb hood, custom header, widebody, solid axle, 285's all around kind of fast.

Im sure at what I plan to be making, the engine only will last a year, but it has 53k miles and cost me $400, so I'm not worried about getting another one.

jimlab

Obviously...

photopaintball

like the primer?

jimlab

Like the custom PVC...

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

whats up with that PVC anyhow?

slo

iTrader: (1)

Not bad, but if you can fabricate at all you can set up a custom intercooler for around 450, or purchase a used kit from a Jap importer for the same. The BNR stage 2, 3 or 4 is a better choice, or a master power turbo with an ebay manifold, for about the same price. You will also need a set of larger injectors, and a better fuel pump, And some kind of programable efi computer to controll them.

With for example an E6k + 550/1600 injectors + walbro pump, on a good exhaust using an ebay or other FMIC with a master power 60-1 and an ebay manifold. You can probably get to the 350 WHP range on a conservative tune. I think for about 5-6k with buying mostly new. Also, if the engine that is the starting point has good compression don't rebuild till it blows, the hard parts it damages don't cost that much.

Next rebuilding a rotary engine is far easier than the custom work required for a V8 swap, and you can pay someone who knows what they are doing to do it for 4-500 in labor costs. I would say the number one factor on the side of the rotary engine is that it would be less of a time investment.

In practical terms the v8 isn't going to get much better gas mileage than the rotary, my current turbo rotary gets 23-24 on the highway (75-80 MPH), and 16-18 in the city. In practical terms is a v8 7 going to get much more than that?

And, why does the v8 option have to be an Ls1. Just yesturday, I spotted an Lt1 camaro at a junk yard with major body damage, engine still in place. They where selling the entire car for 1500. Car had 92K. There are other far less expensive v8 options.

jimlab

It's cheap, it's light, and it serves double duty as a handy reservoir for a water injection system...