My local drag scene is fairly small...

it's usually flooded by the rich guys who bought ready cars from the states and destroyed everyone (boost logic supra running Flat 8's.. next closest guy in the 10's)


anyway.. the only class with still a fighting chance for us normal ppl.. is the 4/6 N/A Rwd class...

The best of the group is 13 flat once in a blue moon high 12's
the competition.. is a couple of 350Z's S2k or 2 and a Z3 M power

i'm hoping to use Power to weight ratio as my advantage...

I have an N/A FC I was thinking of using as my car

the current motor only has RB headers, Apexi N1 and a cone filter
Far from a power house (it's a shitty 4 port motor too with a dizzy)
makes ~ 150hp in stock form (less than a b16a jeez)




what motors would you suggest as a good swap for this class?

Aluminum for weight advantages obviously...

i was thinking of:

3S-GE Beams motor
F20C
4A-GE 20V
SR20 converted to High compression (already have the motor laying in the garage with a broken piston)

VQ35DE (damn drive by wire problem tho)


Any other suggestions?

 

If you want to get started in local drags, the best thing to do is bracket for a while, make some money and a name for yourself, then move up into the other classes.

As far as a RWD V6 with good N/A potential; a GM 3800 Series II with a stroker crank, cam, ported heads, headers and a ported LSx throttle body will make 300+ at the rear wheels, and should run well into the 12s. Expect 6-7K in the motor and you're there.

 

if you look at grannys speed shop they have a kit to swap in a VG30DETT motor or in your case the NA version of that motor,

I would suggest that one, or a 4.3L chev. it a 350 small block with 2 cyl missing. huge oftermarket for it and cheap cheap cheap to hotrod.

 

digitalsolo: we have no bracket racing here.. we just have Street, super street, pro and outlaw.. (FR/FF seperate obviously)

that's it.. we don't have enough cars to support many "flavors" of drag.. you got the main event and that's pretty much it... you run what you Brung...

90Turbo.. that's a good idea.. the VG30 I can acquire quiet cheap.. but the N/A version only puts out like 220hp..and it's Iron block... i think it's weight and size will outweigh its performance.. unless i'm missing something?

is the 4.3L chev alumin or Iron?

i'm trying to keep the weight down

 

bridgeport? PP? keeping the rotary would be a + also.

 

Since you're "across the pond" I'm assuming that that means Europe, probably England. You seem intently focused on Japanese engines, why not expand your search to euro engines too. The 3.5L Nissan engine is actually originally a Renault engine, and I'm sure there's lots of good options. BMW makes some wonderful (but expensive) I6's, and I'm sure there's some very powerful MB V6's. A euro engine will be more available, and therefore should be cheaper too.

 

The 4A-GE is kind of small, I don't think you'll be able to make enough power with it.

The SR20VE might be worth looking into, but parts will probably be harder to come by than the DE.

Honestly I think the best 4-cylinder going right now is the Honda K-series. If you can mount a TSX block in RWD fashion and have enough money to spend on some mods, you can get damn near 300 hp out of them pretty easily. You won't even have to do any head porting, as they flow great from the factory. Visit www.k20a.org for more info.

Other than that, a V6 might be the way to go. Digitalsolo's option would probably be the best bang for the buck. Another good alternative would be the VQ35, since that is all aluminum and you should be able to get some good power out of it. It's a fairly bulky engine though.

 

The chev 4.3L is an iron block, but you can get a aluminum block from GM performance parts I believe...

Ever thought about the ford 2.3L Merkur, Mustang SVO, ranger pickup.. ect. they are stout engines that can be made to make some serious power with the right parts swapping, oh crap nevermind you said you wanted a NA motor.

I still would do the VG30DE motor, it probably doesnt weigh much more than the rotary engines with all the accessories installed.

 

Actually I'm stationed in the Middle east...

I considered BMW engines.. but the problem is finding a manual gearbox...
and most of the motors are the 2.5 and 2.8 ltrs from the E36 bimmers
this engine only puts out ~200hp... modding it with cams and what not will be $$$
plus i dunno how it likes to run outside of it's native chassis.. with all the bimmer sensors and what not...



my access to engines tends to be more JDM oriented because of the Half cuts coming in Via containers to the port in Dubai... and they're CHEAP


1UZ 1JZ' 2JZ RB20 RB25 RB26 SR20 VG30 4G63 4A-GE these are all engines that are easy to find..

k20 will be difficult to find.. and converting it to RWD sounds like a nightmare..

plus i can buy 3 2JZ's for the price of 1 K20

an F20C is cheaper than a K20

the market is really lopsided here...

it's easy to find a motor, but hard to find a chassis to put it on...


2JZ is $1000
a 6spd 2JZ tranny is $2,800 same goes for T-56

auto tranny's get sold as scrap metal cuz there's so many and no one wants em

A guy I know is trying to sell a VVTi 2JZ-GTE from a 2002 Aristo... it has like 12k miles on it looks like new... wiring ECU Engine and auto tranny.. asking $2000 and can't sell it... cuz it's "too expensive"


Rotary's are practically non existant... there's 3 FD's in the Country.. and 3 FC's

I own 1 of the FD's and 2 of the FC's.. the other FC a Vert is in a junkyard

So alone I represent %60 of the Rotary community here... the other 2 FD owners had their cars built in the states and shipped them over ($$$)... i do everything myself.. including currently rebuilding my FD's motor... just me the forums and my Service manual...

Sadly little of the Rotary's from Japan end up here.. because of the little demand
It's only sometimes when one accidently ends up in a container do you see em

I bought a Full Cosmo 13b-RE to my door for $800 a rare find indeed.. (sadly it ended up blown even tho it was super mint clean on the outside)

I dream of the day i stumble across a 20B lying in a pile forgotten asking peanuts for it.. (which i know will never happen since they're so rare and sought after)

things are weird around here..


Everyone and they're mother has an RB20 or 2JZ under their hood... because they're so cheap... it's just the damn tranny's are so expensive... and I hate auto



So that is my dilemma...

 

Are you still wanting to go with an N/A engine?

If not, there are a few guys working on 4g63 turbo setups in FC's. You'd just need to source a wideblock 4g63 or 4g64 and get a B2600 bellhousing (probably from someone here in the states). That way, you'd be able to use the RX-7 transmission. I dunno if that helps or not...

 

I still stand by the built N/A 3800. 300 RWHP out of a motor you can beat the snot out of for as long as you care to have the car. Even shipped over there it's a cheap setup, as longblocks with harness and accessories go for 300-500 dollars over here. 6 bolt mains and an LS1 style deep skirt block with a bottom end proven stout to 750+ RWHP on F/I models.

Beyond that, the VQ series, if you can get past the packaging concerns. Since you're more JDM oriented over there, it might be easier to attain, though harder to swap. Cam(s) and headers and that should knock 300 RWHP down as well, and 6 speeds are easily attainable via the 350Z/G35.

 

I Had an Idea..

I have a black top SR20DET+tranny laying in my garage..

it has a broken piston and a valve... other than that it's fine...


how much power can it make if i rebuild it with 11:1 compression, agressive duration cams, upgraded spings, ported head and an ITB setup with an E6X or E8, and rev it out to 8.5-9k

it will have the benefit of the oil squirters under the pistons to help cooling and such as well something most N/A motors don't have...

 

FCs are pretty heavy for a 4cyl n/a

 

if F20C can haul a heavy *** S2k into the low 13's (~2,900#)

why not a much lighter Gutted S4 FC into the 12's? (~2,500# or less)

 

Get a Cosworth YB

2.0L 4 cyl, 16 valve.
the engine came with the Ford cosworth series of cars Serria, Escort etc..
As you prop know they are turbo But Many rally boys here in the UK convert them to N/A very easily.
Get it stroked to 2.2 and there are so many mods around 300bhp is do-able. It's so light as well you'll be doing 12's

Cosworth the way forward

 

Digitalsolo, I think your 3800 built engine idea sounds pretty nice! Maybe you can make one for us to gander/drool at as a future project?

Look to the F20C and K20C as the king of the 2.0's, and they have a real hard time pushing even 300 flywheel, at least without race gas. With the head design of the sr20, and not ideal engine physics for ultra high rpms, I would say 220hp at the flywheel is going to be about where you would end up, unless lots of R+D are put into it. Oil squirters arent as important in a n/a engine, so I dont see that as a power advantage, more a reliability advantage.

That would be my first choice. I have made 348rwhp with a n/a 20B setup. There is still a good amount of room for more power too. And that way you can just order the custom intake and exhaust from my shop!

 

Just remember that when naturally aspirated there's no replacement for displacement.

Sure a really trick cosworth 2.3 can make over 250hp, but it'll cost a lot, be very high strung and still not provide the power of the 3.8 V6.

The 3800 will have the advantages of being cheaper to build to a given power level, it'll have more torque at that power level, it'll be easier to drive, faster and will be much less high strung.

 

I'm actually going to be working on one down at the shop with a friend this summer. It's a mild motor for a Vert, though I'm sure I'll do the heads and a cam while it's apart, considering I do the head porting myself and cams are 200 bucks, it'd be crazy not to.

I probably wouldn't build that high output N/A 3800, just because they take to turbocharging so well, and I'm power obsessed. They make a great engine for road racing in N/A form though, as they can be beaten to hell and back without complaint. Great if you're budget racing anyway. I recommended it just because, as we all know, if you're N/A, displacement is king, and you don't get much bigger then 4.1L in a V6 (3800 SII stroked). That's a lotta drag racing torque.

The other engines discussed sound great, if a little soft for a drag car. Against the other numbers mentioned they should do well though.

Good luck whatever you choose.

-Blake

 

The K20 has oil squirters.

Honestly, I think oil squirters are a waste. Even for turbo engines. Especially on piston engines like the 7-bolt 4g63 that like to crankwalk.

Realistically, I don't see you making more than 200 whp out of an N/A SR20, and that's being generous.

If you're really set on N/A 4- or 6-cylinder power, you have 3 choices (IMO): K-series, VQ35, or as digitalsolo mentioned, the 3800. Actually, the F20C is not a bad choice either, but it does have less aftermarket than the K-series or other Honda engines.

Wow, I didn't realize the 3800 had 6-bolt mains, neat stuff. You learn something new every day! (BTW, I'd really listen to digitalsolo, he knows his ****.)

 

If you know what you're doing, you can take a K24 and make just about 300 whp on pump gas. Now, the money to do that is quite a bit, and you're not ending up with a straight 2.0L, or even a 2.4L, the one engine that has done that already (over 300 whp on pump) was a 2.5L, fairly custom job. But it's still possible, and it's definitely a LOT easier to get close to those numbers with a K-series than any other 4-cylinder, by far. Make no mistake, the K-series is an AWESOME 4-banger. Especially for the N/A crowd.

A lot of guys running basic K24 builds (no internal mods aside from cams) are running around 270 whp. Which is pretty damn fantastic in my opinion.

 

Yeah, I will agree without a doubt, the K series is the best n/a 4 clyinder to date. I wouldnt mind building one someday. However, when using those whp quotes, it is front-wheel horsepower. And as everyone knows 300 front-wheel horsepower is only a 8-10% loss, compared to rear-wheel which is 15-18% loss (273-283 rwhp same engine). Not that you didnt know that, but a reminder to others planing to use the same engine in a rear wheel drive car.

 

Thanks for the input guys.. much appreciated


I'm a fan of the K series deffinately.. I've seen some very impressive results from them

but how on earth am i gonna convert an FF car to FR? what tranny could i use to mate to the motor? do they make adapting bell housings?

I can find an Accord's K24a fairly easily.... but it'll be an auto ecu..



digital solo this 3.8 V6 you speak of.... What cars did it come from? what is the engine called? (LT1 LS1 etc) is it a chevy motor? What manual tranny's mate to it?


Thanks

 

The 3800 Series II was used used in damn near everything GM made from 1996-2006. Seriously.

A few: In RWD: V6 Camaro, V6 Firebird, in FWD: Grand Prix GT/GTP, Monte Carlo, Impala, Buick Regal, Buick Riviera, Buick Park Avenue, and many others. The block is the same FWD or RWD, as are the internals. The Aussies also have both the N/A and blown motors in a couple RWD platforms as well, which might be easier for you to find. I know there is some kind of Monaro or Commodore that came with it. They may have more tranny options as well.

The engine has two designations, L36 (naturally aspirated) and L67 (factory supercharged). The blocks and cranks themselves are the same, however pistons in the supercharged cars are stronger. The N/A engines have 9.4:1 factory compression vs. 8.5 on the blown motors. There are 9.5:1 forged pistons available as well.

Heads are different between N/A and supercharged motors also, as the L67 (blown) heads have injector bungs to keep them away from the blower, L36 heads have no provisions for them as the injector bungs are in the intake manifold.

As far as engine design goes, it's actually very similiar to the LS1 on the bottom end, 6 bolt crossbolted mains, crank driven gerotor oil pump, and (on later years) powdered metal rods with "cracked" main caps. The bottom ends have been proven to 7000+ RPM and 750+ RWHP with nothing but bearings, studs and rod bolts (ARP and Clevite fully support the engines). Rollmaster also makes double roller timing chains, and LSx valvesprings and retainers can be used on the heads with no modifications.

A decked set of ported heads, stage 3 N/A cam, long tube headers and a good tune will put these motors well over 300 flywheel HP (they are 210 stock). Stroked cars have put down mid 12 second times in near full weight FWD cars.

The GM 4L60e and the T-5 WC both come in the V6 bolt pattern to mate to this block. There are a variety of clutch and torque converters available as well.

FWIW, I put 17 lbs of boost to stock pistons on my L67 motor in my GTP for ~50K miles, and the motor still had crosshatch on the cylinders when I pulled it apart at 145K miles for a freshening.

They're definitely stout motors. If you're familiar with the Buick Grand National, these are the descendants of that powertrain. If GM would have put the supercharged motors in a FWD car stock, they would have been much more well known.

 

My vote is for the 3.6 liter Cadillac V6 with RWD manual tranny from a 2004+ CTS. DOHC. Distributor-less ignition. Aluminum Block and heads. The 07 version puts out 300HP stock without intake or exhaust mods. GM ecu means there's a flash reprogramer available so you won't have to use a strandalone. (The 3800 motor is iron block and heads). I have one in an 04 CTS. all I've done is add a Volant CAI and it screams. (I am a former C5 vette owner). the stock rear is 3.90 so the cams stock are designed for good midrange response.

 

sounds great but no way in hell I'm gonna be able to source one of those..

ppl in this country are allergic to stick shift