A piece of Domestic Rotary History
12-27-02, 05:43 PM
#26
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I want one of each of these! 
BTW, that GM rotor would probably be less efective than the Mazda one, because one of the drawbacks of the rotary is its long, narrow flamefront, which makes the charge difficult to ignite properly. I bet that thing must have needed 3 plugs per chamber to run properly...
Ren
BTW, that GM rotor would probably be less efective than the Mazda one, because one of the drawbacks of the rotary is its long, narrow flamefront, which makes the charge difficult to ignite properly. I bet that thing must have needed 3 plugs per chamber to run properly...
Ren
12-28-02, 06:22 AM
#29
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too bad chey gave it up i'd like to see an r2 21a vette or even a 20b or a four rotor made with 2 21a's(droooool)
and it's too bad chevy didnt buy part of mazda instead of crappy ford imho
and it's too bad chevy didnt buy part of mazda instead of crappy ford imho
12-28-02, 06:50 PM
#32
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Its kind of funny that everything around wankles estate was rotary powered.
He had a rotary lawnmower by sachs
he had a couple rotary outboards and a rotary powered SL and I wouldn't be surprised if he had one of those rotary snowmobiles.
It would be cool if he was still alive
He had a rotary lawnmower by sachs
he had a couple rotary outboards and a rotary powered SL and I wouldn't be surprised if he had one of those rotary snowmobiles.
It would be cool if he was still alive
12-28-02, 09:19 PM
#33
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Here is some more info...
Jeff20B: You were partially correct... See below...
In 1970, Chevrolet obtained a licence for the Wankel RCE from NSU, for a cost of $50 million, at the direction of GM President Ed Cole, whose background was engineering. They began building a two-rotor and a four-rotor Corvette [1, 2], in the highly desirable mid-engine format. Zora Arkus-Duntov met with Bill Mitchell to discuss a four rotor Corvette in 1970. Zora gave him the chassis from the XP-895 mid-engine experimental car shown at the April 1970 New York Auto show. A fibreglass model was approved in June 1971 by Cole [4].
On Jan. 14, 1972, a chassis was shipped to Pininfarina, Turin, Italy so that the body could be constructed by the famed design studio [4]. In June of the same year, a 2 rotor Corvette with a steel body was viewed by GM management [4, 5]. The same year DeLorean at GM commissioned a two-rotor version of the XP-882 and built it as the XP-987GT [2].
In January 1973, a Corvette body, also based on the XP-882 chassis, was built for an experimental four-rotor car [4]. This was designed by Charles M. Jordan and William L. Mitchell's staff. It got the project name XP-895. A second version of this body was made in aluminum alloy and got a 454 V-8 [7]. Two of the two rotor Wankels were glommed together into a four rotor 420 bhp engine and this was installed in the first XP-895 by Gib Hufstader [8]. Mitchell's staff under Henry Haga [8], at Duntov's urging, designed an all-new body for the "Four-Rotor Car" [7,8].
By April, the GALCIT wind tunnel in California was used to test the aerodynamic qualities of the 4-rotor Corvette [4]. The coefficient of drag came out very low for its time: 0.325. The car was only 44 inches high and had gull-wing doors [7]. The interior had digital instruments.
In September 13, 1973 a 266 ci two-rotor Corvette (XP-897GT) was shown in Frankfurt, Germany [1, 3] with a steel body. The four-rotor 390 ci mid-engined Corvette was shown at Paris, France on Oct. 4, 1973, as well as the two-rotor [1]. Oct. 17 they are both shown at the London Auto Show.
On September 24, 1974, GM Pres. Ed Cole postponed the introduction of the Wankel engine, ostensibly due to emissions difficulties [6]. He retired the same month. In 1976 the body was resuscitated with a V-8 400 engine and redubbed the "Aerovette" [7]. On April 12, 1977, GM announced it is stopping all R & D on rotary engines [9].
The 74 Chevy Vega was originally planned for a rotary engine. This was delayed to a later plan for 1975, but was dropped in 1974. The engine was a two rotor water cooled with oil cooling of the rotors. There was a single spark plug per rotor. The housings were all iron. It is also reported that a 206 cid 2 rotor engine was intended for the 75 Monza 2+2.
A GM rotary was going to be used for the American Motors Pacer. The compact size of the engine allowed a flattened hood and radical styling.
Obtained from Wankel Rotary Engine Site.
A great rotary info site!!
Jeff20B: You were partially correct... See below...
In 1970, Chevrolet obtained a licence for the Wankel RCE from NSU, for a cost of $50 million, at the direction of GM President Ed Cole, whose background was engineering. They began building a two-rotor and a four-rotor Corvette [1, 2], in the highly desirable mid-engine format. Zora Arkus-Duntov met with Bill Mitchell to discuss a four rotor Corvette in 1970. Zora gave him the chassis from the XP-895 mid-engine experimental car shown at the April 1970 New York Auto show. A fibreglass model was approved in June 1971 by Cole [4].
On Jan. 14, 1972, a chassis was shipped to Pininfarina, Turin, Italy so that the body could be constructed by the famed design studio [4]. In June of the same year, a 2 rotor Corvette with a steel body was viewed by GM management [4, 5]. The same year DeLorean at GM commissioned a two-rotor version of the XP-882 and built it as the XP-987GT [2].
In January 1973, a Corvette body, also based on the XP-882 chassis, was built for an experimental four-rotor car [4]. This was designed by Charles M. Jordan and William L. Mitchell's staff. It got the project name XP-895. A second version of this body was made in aluminum alloy and got a 454 V-8 [7]. Two of the two rotor Wankels were glommed together into a four rotor 420 bhp engine and this was installed in the first XP-895 by Gib Hufstader [8]. Mitchell's staff under Henry Haga [8], at Duntov's urging, designed an all-new body for the "Four-Rotor Car" [7,8].
By April, the GALCIT wind tunnel in California was used to test the aerodynamic qualities of the 4-rotor Corvette [4]. The coefficient of drag came out very low for its time: 0.325. The car was only 44 inches high and had gull-wing doors [7]. The interior had digital instruments.
In September 13, 1973 a 266 ci two-rotor Corvette (XP-897GT) was shown in Frankfurt, Germany [1, 3] with a steel body. The four-rotor 390 ci mid-engined Corvette was shown at Paris, France on Oct. 4, 1973, as well as the two-rotor [1]. Oct. 17 they are both shown at the London Auto Show.
On September 24, 1974, GM Pres. Ed Cole postponed the introduction of the Wankel engine, ostensibly due to emissions difficulties [6]. He retired the same month. In 1976 the body was resuscitated with a V-8 400 engine and redubbed the "Aerovette" [7]. On April 12, 1977, GM announced it is stopping all R & D on rotary engines [9].
The 74 Chevy Vega was originally planned for a rotary engine. This was delayed to a later plan for 1975, but was dropped in 1974. The engine was a two rotor water cooled with oil cooling of the rotors. There was a single spark plug per rotor. The housings were all iron. It is also reported that a 206 cid 2 rotor engine was intended for the 75 Monza 2+2.
A GM rotary was going to be used for the American Motors Pacer. The compact size of the engine allowed a flattened hood and radical styling.
Obtained from Wankel Rotary Engine Site.
A great rotary info site!!
12-29-02, 11:40 AM
#34
So who wants to install a Mazda rotary into a Pacer or Vega (Astre) or Monza? People put V8s in Vegas and they turn out pretty cool, so why not put the cars' originally intended engine in? Who's gonna notice it's not a GM rotary, huh? Besides, the aluminum inline four in the Vega was crap. The 2.7L(or was it 2.4?) Pontiac four in the Astre was decent, but a rotary would be so cool! And if a V8 will fit in those cars, how about a 20B? 
Besides, the aluminum inline four in the Vega was crap. The 2.7L(or was it 2.4?) Pontiac four in the Astre was decent, but a rotary would be so cool! And if a V8 will fit in those cars, how about a 20B?
12-29-02, 10:58 PM
#35
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oh, I just love all this 'other' rotary stuff
mazda wasnt the only manufacturer to build them
kinda dissapoints me with the comment that other manufacturers kinda blackbanned wankels, i5t seems just to try and stamp mazda out.
mazda wasnt the only manufacturer to build them
kinda dissapoints me with the comment that other manufacturers kinda blackbanned wankels, i5t seems just to try and stamp mazda out.
12-31-02, 06:01 PM
#36
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The 74 Chevy Vega was originally planned for a rotary engine. This was delayed to a later plan for 1975, but was dropped in 1974. The engine was a two rotor water cooled with oil cooling of the rotors. There was a single spark plug per rotor. The housings were all iron. It is also reported that a 206 cid 2 rotor engine was intended for the 75 Monza 2+2.
They were in house kit cars after GM killed the project.
If any engine other than a Wankle would have worked, I wish they would have opted for a 350.
01-02-03, 04:06 AM
#38
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Re: THE ANSWER
Originally posted by goliath414
Without further adieu,
Here is the answer on the source of this wonderful piece of Rotary engine nostagia, directly from the person whom I acquired it (from the horses mouth you might say, although I am sure he wouldn't appreciate that reference)
********************************************
"...the rotor was from Chevrolet's effort to mass produce a rotary to be used in the Chevrolet Monza. The Monza was designed specifically for the rotary application.
The engine was near production ready when the plug as pulled. And it wasn't just emissions. As I said last night it was also fuel economy.
The effort was essentially ended when Ed Cole retired. I'm not sure he had a say in the decision.
G. M. Engineering Staff continued a small rotary development effort after the Chevy program was discontinued.
I'm of the opinion it was mostly window dressing..."
********************************************
I was also told that GM injected transmission fluid as the combustion seal lubricant rather than the engine oil as used by Mazda to make life easier for the emissions control devices. Perhaps one of the origins for the ATF trick??
###
Please keep this thread alive by sharing all the wonderful wealth of domestic rotary history out there!!!
--Dave Foster
Without further adieu,
Here is the answer on the source of this wonderful piece of Rotary engine nostagia, directly from the person whom I acquired it (from the horses mouth you might say, although I am sure he wouldn't appreciate that reference
)********************************************
"...the rotor was from Chevrolet's effort to mass produce a rotary to be used in the Chevrolet Monza. The Monza was designed specifically for the rotary application.
The engine was near production ready when the plug as pulled. And it wasn't just emissions. As I said last night it was also fuel economy.
The effort was essentially ended when Ed Cole retired. I'm not sure he had a say in the decision.
G. M. Engineering Staff continued a small rotary development effort after the Chevy program was discontinued.
I'm of the opinion it was mostly window dressing..."
********************************************
I was also told that GM injected transmission fluid as the combustion seal lubricant rather than the engine oil as used by Mazda to make life easier for the emissions control devices. Perhaps one of the origins for the ATF trick??
###
Please keep this thread alive by sharing all the wonderful wealth of domestic rotary history out there!!!
--Dave Foster
Thank you for the interesting thread,
Isaac
P.S. My first car was a Corvair van (Corvan) if anyone cares. They too were unique domestic creations.
01-03-03, 03:26 AM
#40
Senior Member
G'day from DMRH
Just to add some more about the GMRE program, here is a paragraph from a story I wrote for an Aussie rotary magazine..........
Back in the U.S, GM where full steam ahead into the GMRE program. The 1975 Chevrolet Vega was destined for their GMRE 206 engine. A 1790cc twin rotor, it was rated at 145hp and featured all the design criteria of the Mazda rotary. Like most GM V8?s, its distributor was mounted at the rear (plate). Other engines ready for production was the GMRE 266. Its 2180cc twin rotor rated at 175 hp and was to be an option for the Vega. GM had even a triple and quad rotor waiting for larger more sporting cars such as the quad rotor Corvette shown at the 1973 Detroit motor show. Rated at 290hp, a 3380cc quad rotor would have seen the Corvette achieve status alongside the favourite European marquees.
Here is a pic of the GMRE 4 rotor. Just a pity it taken from the wrong side.
REgards
Just to add some more about the GMRE program, here is a paragraph from a story I wrote for an Aussie rotary magazine..........
Back in the U.S, GM where full steam ahead into the GMRE program. The 1975 Chevrolet Vega was destined for their GMRE 206 engine. A 1790cc twin rotor, it was rated at 145hp and featured all the design criteria of the Mazda rotary. Like most GM V8?s, its distributor was mounted at the rear (plate). Other engines ready for production was the GMRE 266. Its 2180cc twin rotor rated at 175 hp and was to be an option for the Vega. GM had even a triple and quad rotor waiting for larger more sporting cars such as the quad rotor Corvette shown at the 1973 Detroit motor show. Rated at 290hp, a 3380cc quad rotor would have seen the Corvette achieve status alongside the favourite European marquees.
Here is a pic of the GMRE 4 rotor. Just a pity it taken from the wrong side.
REgards
01-03-03, 04:21 PM
#42
Senior Member
P.S. My first car was a Corvair van (Corvan) if anyone cares. They too were unique domestic creations
01-04-03, 02:01 AM
#43
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Originally posted by protlewski
Hey My first was a 66 corvair monza 110. I am still planning to put either a T2 or a 20B in it. I want the 20B more than the T2 but I don't think I'll have the funds for it and weight is a consern.
Hey My first was a 66 corvair monza 110. I am still planning to put either a T2 or a 20B in it. I want the 20B more than the T2 but I don't think I'll have the funds for it and weight is a consern.
Good luck with the project, keep me updated!
Isaac
01-04-03, 06:09 PM
#44
Senior Member
Yeah I was thinking 20B for the longest time but then the money issue came in. I think I will get a rebuilt SPed t2 and hook that up midships for my daily driver.
I also want to build a drag car. One that will pull high 9's. or less. The plan get a corvair 4 door and gut it. cut out the back seat hook a throwout shaft and custom bellhousing to the front of the corvair 4 speed transaxle then replace as much of the body with carbon fiber as possible and shoehorn a Grand national turbo V6 modded to 580-630Hp hook up a radiator and water cooling system. That will run lower than 9's maybe. the cars weight goal is 2100lbs the stock corvair weighs 2338lbs so thats not a unrealistic goal. This will cost lots of greenbacks.
I love corvairs and the engine in them is awesome little flat 6 but not a good drag engine. Besides I want to have a rotovair. The t2 vair will be my autocross car.
I just gotta get some money..... any of you want to help? please send your contibitions to the Paul Ryan. Otlewski fondation for afording auto parts at
346 nowhere dr
Hell MI, 35463
I also want to build a drag car. One that will pull high 9's. or less. The plan get a corvair 4 door and gut it. cut out the back seat hook a throwout shaft and custom bellhousing to the front of the corvair 4 speed transaxle then replace as much of the body with carbon fiber as possible and shoehorn a Grand national turbo V6 modded to 580-630Hp hook up a radiator and water cooling system. That will run lower than 9's maybe. the cars weight goal is 2100lbs the stock corvair weighs 2338lbs so thats not a unrealistic goal. This will cost lots of greenbacks.
I love corvairs and the engine in them is awesome little flat 6 but not a good drag engine. Besides I want to have a rotovair. The t2 vair will be my autocross car.
I just gotta get some money..... any of you want to help? please send your contibitions to the Paul Ryan. Otlewski fondation for afording auto parts at
346 nowhere dr
Hell MI, 35463
01-05-03, 04:56 PM
#45
Senior Member
G'day from DMRH
While you guys are chatting about the Mazda 20B, think of this.
Total production of the JC Cosmo was around 9000. 20B versions totalled almost 4000.
The last Cosmo was made in Sep 95. 3 years ago, I would spot 2-3 (20B) Cosmo's per day for sale at the auctions in Japan. Today I spot about 2-3 (20B) Cosmo's per week & its only going to get worse.
While you guys are chatting about the Mazda 20B, think of this.
Total production of the JC Cosmo was around 9000. 20B versions totalled almost 4000.
The last Cosmo was made in Sep 95. 3 years ago, I would spot 2-3 (20B) Cosmo's per day for sale at the auctions in Japan. Today I spot about 2-3 (20B) Cosmo's per week & its only going to get worse.
01-10-03, 07:19 PM
#48
Senior Member
Wanna know something more to add to the saga.
When GM packed up the production plant they had already built for the rotary, they sold the rotary production equipment to OMC who then sold it to Moller.
Haven't heard much of Moller & there rotary engines of late.......????
When GM packed up the production plant they had already built for the rotary, they sold the rotary production equipment to OMC who then sold it to Moller.
Haven't heard much of Moller & there rotary engines of late.......????
01-10-03, 07:27 PM
#49
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Checkpoint's Dave Myers involved in GM project....
Dave Myers of Checkpoint fame was personally involved in the GM project in the 70s. He was called in by GM as a consultant on the Corvette rotary project. I've enjoyed many a beer listening to his stories. His involvement was very short, but interesting. I'll have to follow up with him to get more info on what he did.
Beast
Beast
01-10-03, 08:16 PM
#50
Senior Member
Re: Checkpoint's Dave Myers involved in GM project....
Originally posted by Beast From The East
Dave Myers of Checkpoint fame was personally involved in the GM project in the 70s. He was called in by GM as a consultant on the Corvette rotary project. I've enjoyed many a beer listening to his stories. His involvement was very short, but interesting. I'll have to follow up with him to get more info on what he did.
Beast
Dave Myers of Checkpoint fame was personally involved in the GM project in the 70s. He was called in by GM as a consultant on the Corvette rotary project. I've enjoyed many a beer listening to his stories. His involvement was very short, but interesting. I'll have to follow up with him to get more info on what he did.
Beast