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My MX5 Rotary swap
Hey guys,
My name is Ash and I live in little New Zealand. I own a MX5 that I am in the process of installing a 13B-REW engine in just for a bit of fun and experience, which once done will be seeing track time around 4 times a year and mainly street use since this is my work car. So far I have the motor and started work on getting it ready to drop into the engine bay and I will be updating this thread as often as I can to ensure everything is documented so anyone else wanting to follow me has a good solid outline of what I have done. |
I wanted a Nardi steering wheel so I found one local to me that was barely used which I was happy to buy seeing as I plan to keep the interior simple
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_5540.jpg And mounted my replica Bride seats since the old ones were torn and got these cheap http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_5676.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_5691.jpg Stayed quiet for a few months till I got the hardtop painted and recieved my strut braces and oil cooler http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_6415.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_7440.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_7463.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_7465.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_7623.jpg (in this picture you can see the JDM fogs I tracked down that were hard to find and still are I think) Then I got tired of the Teins near the end of last year and bought some new BC coilovers http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...T/IMG_8311.jpg That brings me to the most recent activity at the start of this year which is this beautiful yet interesting (never worked on a rotor engine before just driven a few) 13B-REW engine sitting in my driveway. I am unhappy with the carburetor set up and will go EFI after the engine is in and I can confirm it is running perfect. Alot of tidying up to do but I will get there http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps5f96e307.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps1474f840.jpg I am very grateful to the people on RX7club for helping me, I asked alot of stupid repetitive questions but the guys on here have been fantastic so thank you very much and I hope to make the rotor guys happy with a nice clean fully functional 13B swapped MX5. |
get it on ....
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I will hopefully this coming weekend if everything works out and I dont find any more I need to change/block off/re route/ weld/seal and general crap that will slow things down :D
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Very cool! I dream of doing this swap some day.
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Started with this
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps6dde4d2e.jpg Began cleaning it up http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psf05daca7.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps50edb778.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps5e8e47eb.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps450022e7.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps61ea77a2.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps311c549d.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps503ac721.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps09340667.jpg (this is the progression so far, AC and Power Steering pumps on and everything cleaned) |
I have finally completed the AN-barb fittings on the oil cooler ports and will buy a blanking plate for the oil filter so I can remote mount it. Just incase anyone needs to know the fittings I used for the front and rear ports of the oil cooler on the 13B-REW, they were M18x1.5 not the M16x1.5 front cover and M18x1.5 rear cover fittings as I found online. I will post some pictures soon of those.
Bought the Gates power steering and air conditioning pump belt and only need to find out which lines go where on both pumps. There are low and high pressure outlets just unsure of which is which on each pump. I rebuilt the OMP feed line as well and found the OMP bolt and banjo are indeed 8mm and the bolt and banjo fitting on the housing/oil injector side to be 10mm |
Block off blanks on the water neck may come in handy, I plan on running the heater core return coolant line to the side blank in an attempt to not do the factory way of using a "T" piece and connecting it to the lower radiator hose as I want that coolant to be as cool as possible.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps1efed9b5.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps86973189.jpg And I managed to remove the AST nipple so will thread and block it :D which takes care of the silly AST missing problem and means I can run the cooling system the way the MX5 has it which is radiator has a pressure cap and overflow bottle works off the radiator http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps7a98c761.jpg |
Originally Posted by nate91242
(Post 11363157)
Very cool! I dream of doing this swap some day.
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SUB-scribed.
nice one. i know nothing about mx5's, but i'm surprised that they have power steering, always imagined them to be one step up from a go-kart. the go-kart qualities i saw when staring at them wistfully imagining slotting a rotary into them. i think you may well end up with the world's most fun street/track car. |
Tinytyrant - Thank you for that, I am hoping to get it done right and make it reliable in the sense that all of my wiring and mounts will stand the test of time. Its been done before just never in a more documented and hopefully when I am done much more simpler way.
Got my low pressure in tank carburetor pump so I dont need any regulators in the bay to dial down the pressure of a high pressure pump :D (Ford Courier Carburetor pump if anyone needs to know) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps34f3999b.jpg I rebuilt the OMP oil line I broke as well so I am hoping upon start up I wont have any issues, if this works I will redo the other line and will fire sleeve both to protect from heat. I will be fire sleeving the rest of the wiring as well http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psdef4d544.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psd95c9d89.jpg Fittings are a 8mm banjo from the OMP through a 4mm Nylon line to a 10mm banjo on the oil injector side. |
Ok so update:
I have the Megasquirt ECU arrive and went over the wiring diagram, there are 3 main parts I need help with the other wires are fairly easy to instal and solder. I bought a oil filter block off plate so I can use my remote mount filter with temperature sensor port and installed the oil cooler AN-barbed fittings on the outlet/inlet ports. blocked off the AST hole after pulling out the nipple was a semi tight fit but hoping the thread tape will stop any leaks forming. The motor is pretty much ready aside from wiring, the old engine comes out tomorrow and then the fun/headache begins. I am planning on wiring a low oil level and low coolant level LED alert since I dont have the factory RX7 cluster to warn me. I will use the stock sensors on the engine. |
very cool...keep them coming
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Started the tear down after work today. Really happy everything went smoothly and we reached the target of removing the gearbox for modification tomorrow and installing the new bellhousing. Goals for tomorrow are pull the engine and have the input shaft of the gearbox modified for the 13B.
Pretty tired after working 9 hours and then coming home to work another 3 on the car but its exciting to see it happen, dropping the gearbox was not hard it was just cleaning everything up and trying to reduce spillage from oil/gearbox oil so we worked slowly while stopping for lunch and a general clean up of removed parts/labeling of connectors. Also ordered my oil block off for the oil filter and just need to get the wiring sorted. http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psb06c283d.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps028b7299.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psbf9fa0b4.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps81411d62.jpg The car waiting for the heart transplant pre tear down. http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps7cb9b904.jpg I have my dad helping in terms of guidance for hard areas I am not sure on how to unbolt or reach but overall he is my hero. He and I did the gearbox and diff install on my Supra at home and will be doing this swap as well and I am very lucky to have him to help. Working from the Supra to the MX5 is a huge difference, the shear size of the car makes it so nice to work under where you are not reaching with many extensions to unbolt items and the clearance between the bellhousing and the tunnel was like a football field of room compared to the Supra. So I hope to have more updates tomorrow with a nice solid days work on the car and hope to have something to show at the end of all this :D Stay tuned |
Update time:
Old B6 engine is out and the 13B test fitted in. Found the areas of the subframe that need to be cut and flattened as well as found the front of the subframe needing to be cut a bit more to give more forward clearance on the oil pan area. Removing the old engine was really simple and quick and now that the rotary is in the measurements can be made and then the cutting can be done. All thats left now is: 1. Grind down stock MX5 5 speed input shaft since its too long for the 13B 2. Cut subframe and weld flat plate to restore strength 3. Measure and make engine mounts 4. Wire in the engine, fill fluids and hope it starts :D http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps0f488e25.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps2d2309b6.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pse3df12a3.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pse18b426a.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps80f85256.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps654d43d1.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pse931d4e0.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps62c44ab2.jpg (my dad) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psbda954df.jpg |
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psc3e35d41.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps1fe9eb5b.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psd026ce91.jpg Some munter decided to remove the flywheel nut with a hammer and chisel (assuming) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps77e618a2.jpg |
Update time:
Not a very productive day, sort of disappointed in the way it turned out today. Started off great with cleaning the subframe from all the mess, got the AC bolts sorted and built my new power steering feed nipple to adapt the MX5 power steering to the RX7 power steering pump. Then the sad news to me is: Took off the munted nut on the rear of the engine and removed the flywheel as its too big to fit inside the NA FC bellhousing, and my MX5 flywheel wont fit onto the 13B engine so I need to somehow track down the correct flywheel. I am thinking I need a NA FC flywheel and clutch? if someone knows or could please point me in the right direction that would be great. Still need to cut the subframe (hope that happens tomorrow) then separate the stock MX5 bellhousing to mount the FC bellhousing and then need to make the mounts. I am behind schedule so I am not very happy but I will work harder to pick up the slack. So far the engine sits nicely inside the engine bay and tucks up well. Few cuts on the subframe and I should be able to have it in, its just the gearbox/clutch thats a problem at the moment. Stay tuned |
Ok Update time:
Cut the ear/box section from the firewall area that most people trim anyway so that gives me alot of room on the sides. Next is cutting the subframe to allow the oil pan to sit where I want it too and then its wait for the welder to come down and neaten everything up. So far I am making good progress as opposed to yesterday and should be back on track by the end of today. I will source a NA RX7 flywheel and clutch set up and then hope it fits my MX5 spline :D |
Munter describes it. Your pilot bearing should probably be replaced. It wasn't installed deep enough and there is no pilot seal that I can see. That means no grease and high levels of wear.
The problem is new clutch kits no longer come with the seal and no instructions for how deep to install the pilot bearing. Then you get some munter thinking he needs to change out the old pilot bearing when they usually are fine. That's been my experience. Good luck. Cool project by the way. I might want to do a Miata at some point. |
Thank you very much Jeff20B. New pilot bearing will be coming once I get the flywheel and clutch sorted. I would say if you ever want to do a MX5 project like this go with a V8 Flyin Miata subframe. Makes the dropping in part a piece of cake unlike mine. :D
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My big question mark was the subframe. Thanks for the advice!
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The subframe at the moment is fairly easy to modify its just the front section that needs to be larger to accommodate the oil pan. Honestly using a V8 subframe will be best unless you are willing to cut the MX5 subframe like me. Once done I will have some pictures and a guide just sit tight for now.
Update is the oil pan was remove to allow the engine and bellhousing to sit deeper into the engine bay to see where I need to cut. I have marked out the subframe sections along the side its just the front area by the oil pan that needs attention now. Work has come to a stop while I wait for a flywheel, some how separate the bellhousing on the old gearbox and fix a power steering hard line my dad bent :( |
Update:
Got the bellhousing off and will install the FC bellhousing tomorrow morning. Once that is done plan of attack is reassemble the gearbox with new bellhousing and PPF so that the car is once again in alignment drivetrain wise and then put the engine back. Measurements will be taken on the subframe one last time and I will cut the frame wider and lower the engine in, that should allow me to make my custom mount measurements and be done with the engine install area. I am pretty happy since this makes progress almost back on track (subframe should have been cut today :( ) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps57f995e1.jpg (remove Clips, these hold the input shaft and bearing on the bellhousing) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psdf4b269a.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps3bd9c701.jpg I have some photos of the clearance and my proposed mounting/cutting: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps181bb2fa.jpghttp://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps4625f6d6.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps9e92efb2.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps8bf69bb7.jpg Cut ears: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps9d58bfa0.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psf05ae52e.jpg Proposed subframe redesign: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps5df5dbfd.jpg |
You can find a short drain bolt to replace your long one. Any 12A or FD should have one. Only the FC and a few other models with center motor mounts required the long drain bolt. Looks like someone swapped yours. Doesn't surprise me seeing as your engine also has a carb for some reason. ;)
I predict a short bolt will solve your clearance issue. Good luck! |
For sure that is the plan with that drain bolt but for now I need to get the engine out and get the gearbox and drive train in. I am very disappointed with the carb setup but I have a plan to change it over to EFI once everything is running.
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Update is the MX5 starter does not fit the FC bellhousing as I was lead to believe. So I have to hunt down a starter and flywheel/clutch set up . At this rate I will probably need a new slave and fork as well knowing my luck.
The input shaft gets sent to the engineer tomorrow since my dad said he doesnt want to try grinding it down at home which makes sense. So that means subframe only gets cut tomorrow and pushes the whole project backwards :( |
Couldnt wait and sit around knowing nothing is getting done and starting the motor is getting pushed further away so I took the grinder and attacked the subframe :D
Came out well with the sides giving me more than enough clearance without having to cut alot of the metal out, the front is the only part left on the subframe needing a chop which will only be done once the gearbox is back with FC bellhousing and the motor is sitting in the correct place. So far with a quick feel around the front bar of the subframe will need to be cut roughly half of its width to give the oil pan clearance but I will confirm that tomorrow. Still waiting for clutch/flywheel combo and starter motor :( |
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psb34e5d30.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psd51e43fc.jpg (marked outline) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps1a6e03a0.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps4aa1464c.jpg (passenger side) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps52d07ded.jpg (drivers side) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psa1b72b84.jpg (sitting lower) http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps32f4fbe7.jpg |
wow nice!
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Update time:
Input shaft is getting machined then transmission is getting put back together by the shop. Will be expensive but worth it getting it done right, so I guess thats a cost to factor in when doing this swap Found a S1 (early 12A to early 13B) flywheel/clutch/fork and starter motor to work with the bellhousing and 13B engine I have. |
Originally Posted by Ash.B
(Post 11373408)
Update time:
Input shaft is getting machined then transmission is getting put back together by the shop. Will be expensive but worth it getting it done right, so I guess thats a cost to factor in when doing this swap Found a S1 (early 12A to early 13B) flywheel/clutch/fork and starter motor to work with the bellhousing and 13B engine I have. Here's the modifications needed to make the miata input shaft fit. Usually they swap the miata internals into the FC case. So I don't know how your hybrid is going to fit. http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/miatainputshaft.htmp The only stock NA flywheel that will be correctly weighted for an REW is an 89-91 non-turbo flywheel. Alternatively, you could also use an aftermarket NA flywheel with 89-91 rear counterweight. 12a starter would work, but the mounting is slightly different from NA 13b's (which are different from turbo 13b's). 13b starters are also stronger. Clutch and fork should work. Looks like you need to make some clearance for the slave on *your* passenger side firewall. Keep up the great work! |
Thank you RXSpeed16, I have the correct (I hope) flywheel and assortment coming up sometime this week to early next. The input shaft/gearbox should come back to me tomorrow with a very hefty price tag for some apparent reason (I will know more tomorrow) and then its notch the front subframe bar and fit the oil pan into the large cavity I have created :D
So far I have learnt that if you want the input shaft done it most likely will require the gearbox assembly that holds the input shaft to be stripped as most machine shops here in New Zealand wont do it with everything attached. The subframe width wise has alot of room to drop the motor into with very minimal cutting needed, and if you go 13B get the S1 flywheel set up with bits which is needed anyway rather than asking and waiting around, so there you go thats all the information you need when doing this swap :D Oh you may also need to bash the front of the transmission tunnel but I will have more on that tomorrow when things get bolted in place :D Stay tuned |
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
(Post 11374055)
Usually they swap the miata internals into the FC case. So I don't know how your hybrid is going to fit.
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
(Post 11374055)
The only stock NA flywheel that will be correctly weighted for an REW is an 89-91 non-turbo flywheel. Alternatively, you could also use an aftermarket NA flywheel with 89-91 rear counterweight.
Originally Posted by Ash.B
(Post 11374910)
Oh you may also need to bash the front of the transmission tunnel but I will have more on that tomorrow when things get bolted in place :D
http://s12.postimage.org/4y8jft5z1/I...1202_00123.jpg |
Ah right, I have already cut the box section to clear the slave, I will have to double check the front cover clearance as I thought you only had to modify the oil pan to clear the subframe or vice versa.
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Once you notch the firewall you only need to put a small notch in the oil pan to clear the steering rack mount.
What I meant is that the engine can not go low enough to clear the slave without cutting because the front cover extends too far forward and over/into the steering rack. |
Ok so I have cut the ears along the rear of the fire wall to give alot of room around the bellhousing area, so I only need to slightly notch the oil pan to clear the front of the subframe?
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Not a very happy day. Got the gearbox back and it fitted nice and snug. Motor however will not sit lower to line with gearbox due to subframe being in the way :( and it looks like a large amount of frame is in the way too
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I was thinking maybe raising the car since its on coilovers may help with clearance?
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Raising the coils will not help your clearance issues. shimming the subframe (body lift) will help but I can't suggest it.
I fixed this issue with a V8Roadster tubular subframe. Even with the new subframe the drive line is angled (engine high) more than I would like. Only solution I have though of it to shorten the PPF and maybe more notching. This is a lot of work though. The 20mm the 12A would probably not be enough but might help. You could also scrap the PPF and mount it like an FC. Again I can't suggest this. P.S. you may have figured this out but I am food from Club Roadster. |
Originally Posted by krgoodwin
(Post 11375162)
I did the same thing and it bolts together perfectly. I have heard some people say you shouldn't bolt a different bellhousing to the transmission as the internals are bored as a set. We shall see how it works.
Originally Posted by krgoodwin
(Post 11375162)
So an S4 flywheel is not the correct weight for a S5 rotating assembly? I don't know what my flywheel is. Should I be worried?
FWIW, We had a 12a that had a mismatched front counterweight and flywheel. That engine destroyed a rear main bearing within 4 hard hours on track. I attributed it to the flywheel mismatch. Simply because the builder "thought" it had a later 12a front counterweight. Upon disassembly, it did not. We had a good relationship with the guy, it was just a mistake since he assembled it a while back. |
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
(Post 11376169)
Cool! I see you used the V8 roadsters subframe, so you probably had some flexibility in mounting the engine. Did your shifter location end up being close to stock using this transmission?
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
(Post 11376169)
If they are mismatched, yes. Just depends on how confident the right one is on there. They usually don't get mixed up unless it's an inexperienced hobbyist-type rebuild. My reasoning is a newbie won't have the extra parts laying around and a professional shop would know better. So it'd have to be someone in the middle.
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Originally Posted by krgoodwin
(Post 11376349)
Yes, the bellhousing back is all Miata so it lines up perfectly. It is a little higher because of steering rack clearance issues.
Originally Posted by krgoodwin
(Post 11376349)
The engine was built by a respectable shop with S4 N/A rotors. I can only assume the front counter weight it from the same set. The flywheel, I have no idea what it came off of. Are there part numbers on the flywheel? Damn, I really don't want to take that engine out again.
You might be able to look through the inspection cover with a flashlight and mirror to read it. |
Originally Posted by RXSpeed16
(Post 11376395)
Did the shop match the flywheel with the engine or did it come out of a parts bin? The identifying number is stamped on the engine side of the flywheel. Flywheels
You might be able to look through the inspection cover with a flashlight and mirror to read it. |
Haha yup I figured it was you Food, thank you very much for all the help so far. I have the motor bolted to the transmission so that was a fair bit of work but now I see where I need to cut and it looks to me like the entire front of the subframe needs to be removed :(
I might give bashing the transmission tunnel a go but I need the bellhousing to sit higher or the motor to come down lower |
Update time:
I have found the problem on the engine side of why its sitting high. The oil pick up tube is resting on the subframe and even a tubular frame would give me very marginal clearance since the motor sits pretty much square on the whole frame. I am unsure of how to change/modify the pick up any ideas? |
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps1e84e541.jpg
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...psd3890a4a.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps9556cbf9.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps6da9a634.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps4542c42b.jpg This is how it sits http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ps4e3e5a93.jpg http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2...pscdc427ac.jpg |
This is an awesome build.
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Thank you very much. I know there are a few rotary MX5's around (most notably and my favorite is a silver MX5 with a 13B NA swapped into it) but I am hoping but the end of all this I will join in with those that have accomplished a clean and fully functional swap :D
http://philscarblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/re3.jpg |
Originally Posted by Ash.B
(Post 11377726)
Thank you very much. I know there are a few rotary MX5's around (most notably and my favorite is a silver MX5 with a 13B NA swapped into it) but I am hoping but the end of all this I will join in with those that have accomplished a clean and fully functional swap :D
http://philscarblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/re3.jpg |
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