To sleeve or not to sleeve????
01-24-12, 02:05 PM
#1
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To sleeve or not to sleeve????
I read a few posts on this, but have not reached a real conclusion...
Right now I have a N/A S4 that have the sleeves removed (that I got from a working sand rail). I plan to run this engine in my 64' Beetle so cooling the engine is a concern.
I might keep this engine N/A or I might Turbo it...
I need to know what effects the sleeves have on the engine??? Will putting a turbo on cause more heat on the housings???
I don't want to breakdown the engine to install SLEEVES, but I will if it's worth the trouble...
Thanks for any info...
Right now I have a N/A S4 that have the sleeves removed (that I got from a working sand rail). I plan to run this engine in my 64' Beetle so cooling the engine is a concern.
I might keep this engine N/A or I might Turbo it...
I need to know what effects the sleeves have on the engine??? Will putting a turbo on cause more heat on the housings???
I don't want to breakdown the engine to install SLEEVES, but I will if it's worth the trouble...
Thanks for any info...
01-24-12, 10:24 PM
#2
You're talking about the exhaust port inserts? They serve two purposes: smoother exhaust flow and sound dampening.
Section 4 of the training manual covers it: http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/training.shtml
Turbo engines and earlier NA engines did not use these multiport inserts, and some people remove them in the hope of gaining more exhaust flow.
If converting the engine to turbo, the biggest concern will be fuel/timing management due to the high compression rotors (9.4:1 if original S4 NA rotors). Heat transfer to the rotor housings is no different than on a factory turbo engine.
Section 4 of the training manual covers it: http://mazdarx7.iougs.com/training.shtml
Turbo engines and earlier NA engines did not use these multiport inserts, and some people remove them in the hope of gaining more exhaust flow.
If converting the engine to turbo, the biggest concern will be fuel/timing management due to the high compression rotors (9.4:1 if original S4 NA rotors). Heat transfer to the rotor housings is no different than on a factory turbo engine.
01-25-12, 01:35 PM
#3
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Yes I am talking about the exhaust sleeves...
Thanks for the link Rotaryrocket, never knew about that site...
What I would like to know is if anybody has tried running without sleeves and found that there were any adverse effects to doing so. Also, running without sleeves and turbo as well...
Thanks for the link Rotaryrocket, never knew about that site...
What I would like to know is if anybody has tried running without sleeves and found that there were any adverse effects to doing so. Also, running without sleeves and turbo as well...
01-25-12, 02:01 PM
#4
most of the time the sleeves are removed they are done improperly. most manifolds are not large enough to utilize the non sleeved area out of the housing. meaning you have a large hole in the exhaust where the exhaust has to step back up to exit through the manifold, this also causes much more potential for leaks and even less power.
if you aren't looking to go super nuts with the engine then it should have sleeves, whether ported or not.
if you aren't looking to go super nuts with the engine then it should have sleeves, whether ported or not.
01-25-12, 05:22 PM
#5
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Ok,
That does make sense, I did make a header that was flush with the port (2.5inch) so there is a nice smooth flow there, but if I were to bolt on the stock turbo manifold, that has the port opening that maches up to the the original sleeve opening. I think I would have problems here...but either way, if I run my header that maches up to the un-sleeved opening, will I end up running higher cooling temps, will it melt the housings, will the coolant be boiling in this area??? And if I do run turbo, will these problems be exaggerated even more??? Would making a turbo header that matches the unsleeved port be better...
Somebody removed these sleeves to begin with, what were they thinking??? I must have worked for them considering it was on a working sand rail...My concern is with placing a turbo later on and if my ability to cool the engine will suffer more with them removed...
That does make sense, I did make a header that was flush with the port (2.5inch) so there is a nice smooth flow there, but if I were to bolt on the stock turbo manifold, that has the port opening that maches up to the the original sleeve opening. I think I would have problems here...but either way, if I run my header that maches up to the un-sleeved opening, will I end up running higher cooling temps, will it melt the housings, will the coolant be boiling in this area??? And if I do run turbo, will these problems be exaggerated even more??? Would making a turbo header that matches the unsleeved port be better...
Somebody removed these sleeves to begin with, what were they thinking??? I must have worked for them considering it was on a working sand rail...My concern is with placing a turbo later on and if my ability to cool the engine will suffer more with them removed...
01-25-12, 05:39 PM
#6
you will likely get more potential for electrolysis to eat away around the port from the coolant system from boiling but i doubt the housings will melt. the opening is also aluminum and doesn't have any failure issues like that that i have seen.
i don't know what they were thinking either, removing the sleeves is more of a mod for a car with potential of wayyyy beyond 500whp, not for something below that. or in naturally aspirated engines i could see them trying to open up more area to exhaust to get more power out of it, but in turbo applications, no, leave them in there unless it's some drag car with a massive turbo.
i don't know what they were thinking either, removing the sleeves is more of a mod for a car with potential of wayyyy beyond 500whp, not for something below that. or in naturally aspirated engines i could see them trying to open up more area to exhaust to get more power out of it, but in turbo applications, no, leave them in there unless it's some drag car with a massive turbo.
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01-31-12, 03:43 PM
#10
didn't mean that no one has tried, i attempted it one time on a housing that had a sleeve come loose and start to rattle. the conclusion i came up with is you are better off disassembling it. granted i suppose it wouldn't be a huge deal if it came out on a n/a engine but that was dealing with a turbo motor where bad things happen to expensive parts if it comes loose.
i can just picture a port sleeve bouncing merrily down the freeway clanking away.
i can just picture a port sleeve bouncing merrily down the freeway clanking away.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 01-31-12 at 03:45 PM.
02-01-12, 01:04 PM
#12
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Post subject: Re: Everything You'd want to know about Porting on a
Smoothed sleeves. took them out , plugged the extra holes, smoothed them up and put them back in. I will never leave the sleeves out again on a turbo motor. My previous motor had them missing and I believe caused a lack of response and heat spots at the exhaust port. IMO helped put "scollops" in the apex seals and flatten the springs.
This is something that I found on another post on AusRotary.com. This is the kind of info that I was looking for... I hope this helps anyone else out there with the same questions or if your just new to Rotary engines....
Smoothed sleeves. took them out , plugged the extra holes, smoothed them up and put them back in. I will never leave the sleeves out again on a turbo motor. My previous motor had them missing and I believe caused a lack of response and heat spots at the exhaust port. IMO helped put "scollops" in the apex seals and flatten the springs.
This is something that I found on another post on AusRotary.com. This is the kind of info that I was looking for... I hope this helps anyone else out there with the same questions or if your just new to Rotary engines....
02-06-12, 06:44 PM
#13
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Here's my conclusion to sleeve or not to sleeve...
On a stock non turbo, it would work but there is a much greater chance that the exhaust area will be much hotter than inteneded causing more heat to enter the cooling system.
On a turbo system these problems are exaggerated even more, which could cause major problems with cooling and potential apex seal damage.
So unless the port is in excess of the sleeve size (which would be a race engine) then it's better to leave them in or have the correct ones that will match the port...
For my situation I plan on attempting to install turbo sleeves in without disassembly of the engine. I will drill through the original roll pin hole on the sleeve (all the way) and using either an allen screw of stainless or a roll pin of stainless, attempt to tap them in to the engine...I may also weld the exposed pin if I feel it's needed...
Let me know what you all think...
On a stock non turbo, it would work but there is a much greater chance that the exhaust area will be much hotter than inteneded causing more heat to enter the cooling system.
On a turbo system these problems are exaggerated even more, which could cause major problems with cooling and potential apex seal damage.
So unless the port is in excess of the sleeve size (which would be a race engine) then it's better to leave them in or have the correct ones that will match the port...
For my situation I plan on attempting to install turbo sleeves in without disassembly of the engine. I will drill through the original roll pin hole on the sleeve (all the way) and using either an allen screw of stainless or a roll pin of stainless, attempt to tap them in to the engine...I may also weld the exposed pin if I feel it's needed...
Let me know what you all think...
02-06-12, 07:27 PM
#14
the area in reference here should actually not get that hot, most heat absorbed in this area comes from the manifold itself.
think about it like this: the hottest point of a torch flame is at the point of the flame, go below that point and the flame gets gradually cooler the closer you get to the base of the flame. this all assumes that the exit path is unobstructed by the manifold itself.
think about it like this: the hottest point of a torch flame is at the point of the flame, go below that point and the flame gets gradually cooler the closer you get to the base of the flame. this all assumes that the exit path is unobstructed by the manifold itself.
