diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

you really need to check the facts on your "twist theory". front mounting has nothing to do with it. there are several FD and FC owners out there that blow holes through your theory. come to think of it, i think there's an FB owner that can be added to that list because he chose to mount his using the FD mounts so he could keep the FD ignition system. all cracked motors at the dowel lands - front or rear! pictures are abundant ...

you disassembled one? then by that logic, i should be able to claim that it NEVER happens because i've disassembled and rebuilt dozens of engines (Gen I and Gen II motors only) and never had the occasion of finding that particular failure.

i'm aware of the water jacket failures you describe and that it is overwhelmingly specific to the '86+ (non-Renesis) engines. however, as Aaron said, you're focusing on the wrong type of failure for your intent. the dowel-land cracking is much more likely when you start to make power. you can choose to accept it or reject, but it is what it is.

the fact is the later blocks hold up a lot better to high horsepower levels. if it were not an acknowledged issue, then the newer engines would have continued to have thinner dowel lands, don't you think?

your oil pan brace is a good idea, but sadly, i think you'd need more. i'll concede to what more experienced heads have to say on it though. i understand that we're not clones and you don't have to do everything the way i, or anyone else for that matter, does.

-CON-

If you did do your research, and you are positive that it's not because of "twisting theory" as you say, then you should know why it does crack.

So why is it than??

And yeah I have full garage of engines that has its rear rotor apex blown!!! Was this why you took your engines apart??

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

dude, i think you're either missing my point or misunderstanding me - maybe i misunderstood you. i don't know which. i probably should have had the quotations include "your" instead of just "twist theory" because i'm not in disagreement that there is twisting taking place, i'm just in disagreement of where it takes place.

you offered that it's due to mount location - or at least, that mount location is a significant part of it - i'm merely saying that it has little to nothing to do with it. based on all i've seen (and i admit that it's all second-hand) detonation event(s) usually precede the cracks when they occur. just look around the forum ... and it happens with the engines mounted in every position front, intermediate and rear! clearly, the thing twists regardless of mounting position. as i said, it's your choice whether or not you want to believe/accept it. i don't NEED to convince you.

yes, most of the engines i disassembled had busted rear rotors.

-CON-

You are right when you say that cracked dowel happens to fc, fd and specially to fb engines, but what I'm saying that engine mounted on the front will speed up the process!!

You need to do a good dowel job, or at least good engine studs regardless if you running a lot of power and you don't want to end up with a cracked dowel.

To tall you the truth I don't even know if I want to turbo this engine, my original plan was to have it three spark plug N/A with Weber, 9.7 to 1 rotors witch I already got and also had 'em already balanced by Derol Drumand . Hope I spelled his name right.

But why I was asking about the P-port and turbo?> Is because I want to build a full P-port turbo engine, I was hoping that some of you guys will give me some valuable info on this one. But the things escalated the other way.

You can ask me questions I will answer 'em, I just don't want to argue about stupid s...t that nobody needs !

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

things took this direction because you asked your PP questions and then showed photos of this semi-PP engine. the PP-turbo info that was given to you before things shifted is no less valid. likewise, this "stupid ****" as you put it, is still relevant with high horsepower turbo rotaries - port-type is just a detail at that point. for the record, i wasn't arguing per se - meaning there is no anger (or other emotion) on my part. i guess i just reject your mounting point focus as much as you reject the detonation-thing. like i said, i'm not trying to cram anything down your gullet ... i put it out there, so i'm done with it.

the machine work that you showed is still impressive so kudos goes to you (or whomever) that did it. it doesn't matter to me what you do with it (turbo or not) i'd still love to see it run. good luck with it.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Damn, that sounds a bit far from Ontario.

The only time that failure happens is when it is twists the engine, and it twists because it is mounted on the front.[/QUOTE]

Not true though. This failure usually happens when something goes really wrong during tuning. Certain ECUs are prone to ignition noise, and when it happens, spark fires at totally the wrong point (during compression well before it should have) and combustion occurs around the dowel area. As the engine continues to compress the mixture, chamber pressure rises to astronomical amounts and thus the dowel cracks.

Or, tuning very rich or very lean leads to misfires which causes the next few cycles to be contaminated, causing the the preignition/detonation, making pressure skyrocket to two or three times normal, which cracks the dowel. This can crack both front and rear plates, though the front failure is less common.

It really doesn't matter how it's mounted. If something goes horribly wrong, then there's a much higher chance of an earlier rotary cracking the dowel casting.

I just laid it out.

The funny thing is, I don't have a garage full of engines because I've never blown one. I did accidentally assemble one without a corner seal once and couldn't figure out why it only ran on one rotor...oops.

But in reality, it doesn't.

Especially true if you cut apart a dowel casting for a 3rd spark plug. If you ran a combination dowel/stud near the top of the compression area, one at the bottom and then one in the middle of the combustion area you should be OK. Just machine the stock tension bolt holes out to 1/2", then machine a set of threads on each end of a hard steel 1/2" rod. The last peripheral port engine I built did this and no complaints so far.

What do you need to know about the turbo P-port? How much power do you want to make? These are the fundamental questions which need to be answered before we can reply.

If you say "400HP", you're going to be disappointed when we say that it could have been easily done on a stock or street port which bolt ons.

The thread went a bit in the off-direction because you kind of baited us all, and most people don't like that. You must realize that there are about 1000 new users per month that start a post like yours with very lofty goals, and then they **** and moan when it's explained to them what their project actually entails. Knowing that you were this far along in the project, you should have initially indicated that, posted the pictures and asked specific questions.

-CON-

This is what my plans were>I'd like to ran no more than 10psi of boost on the PP, whatever power it would make I don't know exactly, Megasquirt as my management system.

So again what would be good choice in porting not as what I want but us what you experienced heads would do???

How big would you make 'em??

And thanks to those for taking your time to explain about the dowels cracks, it is actually a valuable info more I think about it !!

I don't thing it'll crack with a set up I am going to use as long just as some of you said nothing goes wrong during tuning it. What is going to make 280hp max, if so!!

-CON-

I did not reject what you said about the detonation, I only add the twisting helps the older engine to crack faster when you running high hp, now it could be true or it could be fails this is my opinion, like any of you guys tested any of this personally or know anybody who did, the fact that it is cracking there everyone knows this, besides I was talking to guy who have 15 or 20 years in rotary experience he does this for living every day. I am saying what I been told. I am not trying to make any friction here ether, I am a new guy I came here to learn so far you all been helpful, Thanks !!

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

a full peripheral with turbo ... at 10 pounds ... and you're thinking 280 max? the simple fact that you would say this tells me what i need to know. i'm sorry, but it's true. so as of this point, i'm done. i honestly wish you the best.

for the record, a well-built PP (without turbo) should be able to easily hit that mark or even exceed it with good tuning. i may be mistaken, but i think Padilla ran a PP in his sub-10 Rx-7 ... just something to consider.

i understand that this forum is an international and i'm dealing with many different personalities and cultures, but i can't help but sense a little stink/sarcasm or whatever in your response. if i am mistaken, you have my sincerest apologies. here goes ...

your guy with 15 to 20 years experience told you so it must be ... true? look, i've been driving and modifying these cars since 1987, building engines since 1994, and successfully streetporting engines since 2003. i suppose my race-porting started this year, but since i have yet to assemble it, much less fire it up, i'll hold off on making any claims to it.

i don't claim to know everything, in fact, i revel in the fact that i'm still learning so much (from this board, from my humble experiments and yes, even books and manuals). i will be a lifelong student of the rotary engine - and proud to be.

i don't know your "guy" - he very well may be great - but coming here and throwing out 15 to 20 years experience does not impress me. clearly, i can claim the same and i wouldn't impress myself based on years alone.

as i said, before i agree to disagree with you (and your guy) on the mounting point issue. maybe someday down the line he may be proven right but for now i don't buy it. the detonation-thing makes the most sense to me at this point and so it's what i subscribe to - and i don't need to grenade motors for myself to validate it, it just makes sense!

with that said, i humbly offer that you would be best served to be a little more open-minded. mix your topics a little less and be more forthcoming with pertinent information when you seek answers - it helps the ones trying to help you. this can be a very good thread and it's not too late. i'm only in it this much because i think it's interesting. some friction, but no hard feelings here at all, dude.

so as i said, good luck with it all.

-CON-

The thread went a bit in the off-direction because you kind of baited us all, and most people don't like that. You must realize that there are about 1000 new users per month that start a post like yours with very lofty goals, and then they **** and moan when it's explained to them what their project actually entails. Knowing that you were this far along in the project, you should have initially indicated that, posted the pictures and asked specific questions.[/QUOTE]

I apologize for the improper entrance! As I said I'm a new guy here just learning my ways around here!! You guys are cool !!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

10 PSI on what turbo?

Again, it all depends on your power goals. The semi-peripheral port is about the same as a big bridgeport in the way it acts.

280HP on a turbo 13B? Throw out all the porting and go back to stock irons and housings. Maybe a small street port if you really want it. Then go with a BNR hybrid stock turbo, stock ECU with bigger secondaries and an S-AFC, intake and exhaust, then call it a day. 280 HP at the engine is achievable on an almost stock TII by just turning the boost up to 12 PSI and making a few fuel upgrades.

280HP NA is probably very easily done with your porting. But makes doweling and extra spark plugs totally unnecessary.

It would help us all if you laid out your goals for the project clearly. Otherwise advice is kind of all over the chart.

-CON-

[QUOTE=diabolical1;8809390]a full peripheral with turbo ... at 10 pounds ... and you're thinking 280 max? the simple fact that you would say this tells me what i need to know. i'm sorry, but it's true. so as of this point, i'm done. i honestly wish you the best.

No Sorry I dint make my self clear there my semi-p N/A 280hp max that is what I was hoping to get !

It was of the Pp turbo subject, Sorry for mist communication !

But I still would like to know about turbocharging the PP
I wanna build a fool P-port engine and turbo wanna run 10psi

How would you make your engine (specs)> P-Port turbo if you were to run only 10psi max
or even if you don't like P-port for whatever reason what ports would you chose, for 10psi??

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

you're probably thinkin', "he just can't stay away, can he?"

anyway, 280 on the semi-PP, that makes more sense. misunderstanding, i guess. yes, that should be a good ballpark to aim for. 310 (all N/A) is the most i've heard of thus far and considering the experience, knowledge and skill that achieved it, i'd be happy with 290 to 300 when all is said and done on mine.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

what's the fascination with 10 pounds?

at any rate, you'd need to specify the turbo you have in mind before any decent info/suggestions could be given.

-CON-

As for me I don't think my engine with a set up I am to use will make more then 280hp, but what would you do different to achieve the numbers you describe??

-CON-

Well we just recently used on my friends car t4 turbine and t3 compressor with tail wast gate, on the 6 port engine was working not bad actually so I was thinking something similar!

g14novak

iTrader: (1)

280hp? You can go ahead and send me your PP motor, I'll send you this extra 13b bridgie I have that you can put in there.

N/A, your looking at around 300 hp on a decent tune. Boosted... I'm still learning the info on turbo's for these cars, but the way its been described to me, you can use massive turbos for rotarys, because they can actually spool them. So lets say you want to run a Garrett GT4508R with a 1.3 or 1.4 A/R at 10 psi. Assuming you have the essential fuel mods, your engine should be able to spool it no problem since its a PP, Your easily aiming at 500-600hp. Thats just a guesstimate though....

Honestly, IMO, this is not a project for you if you don't know what your power goals are and what you need to keep it reliable and without blowing up. Not trying to be a dick, its just that if you don't know what your doing with these cars, bad things happen. I'd suggest doing some more research on P-Ports and boosted P-Port setups.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

well, when i get it assembled and sorted, i actually plan to do whatever intake and exhaust experimentation my paychecks will support. as i said, this is an experiment and whatever conclusions i draw will be applied to my '84 racecar. i already have ideas on what i'll do with exhaust, so my main focus will be on intake runner configurations and lengths.

personally, i think your IDA is good, solid start, but i also think you can do better if your budget supports it.

i don't know what i'd like to know about turbo-PPs, but i know enough to say this: you need something relatively large. one of the cool things about the overlap in turbo applications is exhaust energy that would usually go to waste can be harnessed for turbine spool. i also know that anything involving T3 (or similarly sized frames and wheels) is too small for radically ported rotaries. so choose something else.

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

also ... i feel i need to give respect where it's due. the number i quoted was achieved by Judge Ito, so going after it is not as easy as it may initially sound. to me, it's a reference point that i will use to measure my progress. i expect to start my developments in the 270-range and work my way upwards.

-CON-

Please read the posts carefully, there are two types of engines we are talking about, or maybe I just didn't understand you!!

-CON-

This why I think that turbocharging a pp engine would be more beneficial than just a N/A pp, I also would think that it wouldn't need to have ports as big, I am planing to make my ports one and half inch diameter.

I meant to say T4 exhaust side but smaller intake side, would that be too small?? There are lot of good turbos out there but my budget also not unlimited, so I don't know yet what turbo I will go with.

-CON-

[QUOTE=g14novak;8809533]280hp? You can go ahead and send me your PP motor, I'll send you this extra 13b bridgie I have that you can put in there.

I could of make 5 of those bridgie you describe for the amount of one of those housings I have!!! lol

-CON-

[QUOTE=g14novak;8809533]280hp? You can go ahead and send me your PP motor, I'll send you this extra 13b bridgie I have that you can put in there.

I could of make 5 of those "bridgie" you describe for the amount of one of those housings I have!!! lol

Sorry I was just kidding!!

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

okay, bottomline it for me. what is your primary use for the car/engine when all is said and done?

i mean, while it's true that you can move the powerband around by playing with peripheral intake size and timing, there is only so much you can do before you get to a point where you should have just kept the side ports. does that make sense to you? perhaps you should fish around the board and maybe contact some of the guys that are running PP engines because at this point, i'm speaking solely from my understanding of what i've read and mental pictures - not actual experience and i don't feel comfortable any more.

in my opinion it would be a waste for your to try to size your ports to fit the turbo you have as opposed to building the ports and getting the right turbo. however, it's my opinion ... at the end of the day it's your time and your dollar.

-CON-

[QUOTE=diabolical1;8812214]okay, bottomline it for me. what is your primary use for the car/engine when all is said and done?

There is no specific point of use, it is a hobby, an experiment as you described!!!