I am now pretty good at tuning a electomotive tec2.
12-04-08, 11:02 PM
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I am now pretty good at tuning a electomotive tec2.
I finally had some success tuning my Dad's Sandrail. It took a few six hour days in my dads garage to get it close. Then about 2 hours out in the Sandunes with a laptop in a bag under a 5 point harness as my copilot. I made repeated several 50yrd passes and hit a few hills to put a load on the turbo. But back to getting it close for a bit. I realized very quickly that the current tune which was a compilation effort upon the Dyno shop in Santee. Then Fast Freddy's in Santa Ana. Then I played with in Glamis just a little bit and found that motor wanted more advance especially in the 1000 to 3000 rpm range. The motor woke up much quicker and smoother in low RPMs and less missing and kept the plugs much cleaner for longer.
Well just recently we upped the injectors from stock 550cc primary's and 1100cc RC secondary's.
To still stock but flowed 550cc primary's and new 1600 RC Bosch style injectors machined to fit the stock secondary rail.
Well after this and our turbo upgrade The motor would barely run and smoked like diesel stack!
The whole tune or should I say fuel map was useless and were almost starting from scratch! The days in the garage were spent trying to get the motor to idle. Which at first seemed impossible but with time I learned with trial and error. I started to figured a lot out once I knew what KPA was meant converted over to PSI vacuum or boost. And what degrees Celsius converted to degrees Fahrenheit. I started to see some progress. Cause once I got the motor to Idle it would stall if I didn't have the right setting for Warm up Enrichment as it related to temperature. It was tricky because I thought I had it down a few times where it idled good. Then go start the car later after the engine cooled and back to drawing board changing numbers in that degree range till the motor started and idled again. It took a few tries but after a while of starting the car at different temperatures and letting it idle till warm up or 150 degrees f. I had it for now.
After learning that I proceeded to try to tune the fuel map for higher rpm. I then learned I had to change the TOG in the Basic Fuel injector parameters Screen. I leaned that with the much larger secondary injector the Time on for Gama or how many milliseconds the injector stays open for must go down. The old fuel map was like 7.5ms or TOG. I think I wound up a 4.95ms with the 1600cc injectors. I think this called injector pulse width on other computers like the Haltech. At this number the motor seemed to rev up freely in neutral. With relatively smooth acceleration.
Then motor wouldn't idle again. I then learned I had to change the slope of the base fuel curve to achieve Idle again. I had the 0 to 20 second starting enrichment's down and the warm up enrichment's to temperature right. What the F! I thought. So again to the Basic Fuel Parameters screen and a change from 1.75ms to 3.25ms to the injector offset menu. Wallah back came the smooth Idle at @ 1100rpms. Sure I could achieve lower RPMs, but lets face it, it's very easy to stall these motors with a tall geared stick shift. Especially when there cold. The idle helps with easier take offs with out stalls and your buddies getting a few wise cracks in on ya.
Well that was half the battle. Now I had to play with % injector duty cycle enrichment's to vacuum and Boost psi or with the Electromotive Tech 2 KPA! These tables are the hardest or take the most time to adjust because you simple have to drive the car for a few minutes between changes to see the results. These changes make the most difference in drive ability of the car. As you get closer to your goal the smile gets much wider when that rotary hits boost with the right amount of fuel and the right amount of timing!
I would gladly share my fuel map if there is anyone interested with this set up and a Electromotive Tech 2. It will only get you somewhat close though. Each component different in your motor makes a huge difference in the fuel map. Ours with the same motor just bigger injectors made the last expensive Dyno tune useless to us!
Factor in the 67mm larger turbo that hit boost much lower in the RPM range. The fuel map had to be changed both fuel and degrees advance for rpm and boost.
I would definitely be interested in tuning other motors or cars for them for some cash. I would be much more reasonable and enjoy the experience. Does anyone know what a Good Dyno cost? Or better yet know someone with a Dyno facility that would rent time on it or hire tuner? It seems most places just get your motor close with a decent Idle and run it lean to get high horsepower #s quickly and get you out the door and onto the next one. Once you really put the motor in the car and or do different modifications to the car you have to bring it back for more tuning or live with what evers off. Or try hooking up a laptop and do more tuning yourself in your atmosphere. Example elevation roads or in my case offroad in the sand with paddle tires and sea level conditions. With temps ranging from 105 degrees f on some days and 40 degree f nights.
John H. johnnysfast@yahoo.com
Well just recently we upped the injectors from stock 550cc primary's and 1100cc RC secondary's.
To still stock but flowed 550cc primary's and new 1600 RC Bosch style injectors machined to fit the stock secondary rail.
Well after this and our turbo upgrade The motor would barely run and smoked like diesel stack!
The whole tune or should I say fuel map was useless and were almost starting from scratch! The days in the garage were spent trying to get the motor to idle. Which at first seemed impossible but with time I learned with trial and error. I started to figured a lot out once I knew what KPA was meant converted over to PSI vacuum or boost. And what degrees Celsius converted to degrees Fahrenheit. I started to see some progress. Cause once I got the motor to Idle it would stall if I didn't have the right setting for Warm up Enrichment as it related to temperature. It was tricky because I thought I had it down a few times where it idled good. Then go start the car later after the engine cooled and back to drawing board changing numbers in that degree range till the motor started and idled again. It took a few tries but after a while of starting the car at different temperatures and letting it idle till warm up or 150 degrees f. I had it for now.
After learning that I proceeded to try to tune the fuel map for higher rpm. I then learned I had to change the TOG in the Basic Fuel injector parameters Screen. I leaned that with the much larger secondary injector the Time on for Gama or how many milliseconds the injector stays open for must go down. The old fuel map was like 7.5ms or TOG. I think I wound up a 4.95ms with the 1600cc injectors. I think this called injector pulse width on other computers like the Haltech. At this number the motor seemed to rev up freely in neutral. With relatively smooth acceleration.
Then motor wouldn't idle again. I then learned I had to change the slope of the base fuel curve to achieve Idle again. I had the 0 to 20 second starting enrichment's down and the warm up enrichment's to temperature right. What the F! I thought. So again to the Basic Fuel Parameters screen and a change from 1.75ms to 3.25ms to the injector offset menu. Wallah back came the smooth Idle at @ 1100rpms. Sure I could achieve lower RPMs, but lets face it, it's very easy to stall these motors with a tall geared stick shift. Especially when there cold. The idle helps with easier take offs with out stalls and your buddies getting a few wise cracks in on ya.
Well that was half the battle. Now I had to play with % injector duty cycle enrichment's to vacuum and Boost psi or with the Electromotive Tech 2 KPA! These tables are the hardest or take the most time to adjust because you simple have to drive the car for a few minutes between changes to see the results. These changes make the most difference in drive ability of the car. As you get closer to your goal the smile gets much wider when that rotary hits boost with the right amount of fuel and the right amount of timing!
I would gladly share my fuel map if there is anyone interested with this set up and a Electromotive Tech 2. It will only get you somewhat close though. Each component different in your motor makes a huge difference in the fuel map. Ours with the same motor just bigger injectors made the last expensive Dyno tune useless to us!
Factor in the 67mm larger turbo that hit boost much lower in the RPM range. The fuel map had to be changed both fuel and degrees advance for rpm and boost.
I would definitely be interested in tuning other motors or cars for them for some cash. I would be much more reasonable and enjoy the experience. Does anyone know what a Good Dyno cost? Or better yet know someone with a Dyno facility that would rent time on it or hire tuner? It seems most places just get your motor close with a decent Idle and run it lean to get high horsepower #s quickly and get you out the door and onto the next one. Once you really put the motor in the car and or do different modifications to the car you have to bring it back for more tuning or live with what evers off. Or try hooking up a laptop and do more tuning yourself in your atmosphere. Example elevation roads or in my case offroad in the sand with paddle tires and sea level conditions. With temps ranging from 105 degrees f on some days and 40 degree f nights.
John H. johnnysfast@yahoo.com
01-09-09, 11:53 PM
#2
Do you feel lucky punk!!!
That's great. I have a 13BT with a Tec2. I'm still learning how to tune my car. Right now it have four 550'cc injectors, but I have two 1,600 injectors that I'm going to install. I still searching how to put that injectors in the fuel rail and into the intake manifold. The engine needs more gas.
I can start the engine, but I dont get stable idle untir he warms up. I need to keep controlling the acelerator pedal to avoid stall. He tooks a few tries to the engine stall. If I suddebly acelerate the engine he goes into a lean condition, but if I progressively aceleration that not occurs. My tune is not properly. I can start the engine and run around the block, but I can drive it in the town. Thats is what I'm trying to do.
I can start the engine, but I dont get stable idle untir he warms up. I need to keep controlling the acelerator pedal to avoid stall. He tooks a few tries to the engine stall. If I suddebly acelerate the engine he goes into a lean condition, but if I progressively aceleration that not occurs. My tune is not properly. I can start the engine and run around the block, but I can drive it in the town. Thats is what I'm trying to do.
01-10-09, 07:08 PM
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I would like to help you if I can. I need more info.
I would like to help you if I can. I need a little more info. So I can better understand which direction to go with your fuel map.
What size turbo do you have? T04? Stock?
Do you have a aftermarket fuel pump? Stock
Do you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator?
Is your 13b motor pretty stock or does it have a street port?
What sensors are not used and what is disabled in the TEC program?
I mean do you use a idle air control IAC? Or Inlet temp sensor IAT?
Or EGO control or exhaust temp. It's ok if any of these sensors are not used. It can be much easier to tune and get you running this way. But they must be disabled in the TEC program if there not used. Also These sensors were included with my TEC but were not used until I installed them myself. I did not install or use the idle air control or IAC on mine as it was not needed to make my car idle. When I installed the other sensors it got more complicated to get the tune right as if any of these number were off they would cause the motor to stall or run off and got me questioning if I had other things right in the computer.
What elevation is it over there. Also important what temp range do you have during the day and night. Each time you start your car pay attention to what the temp is outside then when you get it to idle and run good you have that temp set in the warm up enrichment screen. If you go back later and this only applies to when the motor has cooled down completely and you try and start it and it wont idle. Then go back to your warm up enrichment screen and if its colder out then last time when it idled, try adding more fuel 10% per 10 degrees about. If its warmer try a little less fuel or try adding a little more advance in the spark table 2 to 4 degrees at a time at the 1000 rpm level. I think mine is at 16 degrees advance there.
Also with running 4 550cc injectors You should be able to get the motor to run pretty good as long as your turbo doesn't reach a lot of boost or real high rpm. But be careful you don't want to run these motors to lean and blow a seal. Once you get the 1600 cc injectors in you will be safe but have to re tune the TEC again. But a lot of the same stuff will apply like Spark advance, start up enrichment, warm up enrichment. These screens you wont have to change much. The first thing you will have to do to get the car to run again is play with the TOG number in the Basic Injector parameters screen. Get the motor to rev up smooth with less and miss and hesitation and less raspy sound. I would try around 10 or more for 550cc. Then around 4.5 when you get your 1600cc in.Then go to the same screen and play with the IOT or Injector offset number till you get the motor to idle with out stabbing the throttle. I would start around 1.5 here for the 550cc and around 3.75 when you get your 1600cc.
Last screen you will have to play with a lot GPO control. This is when you got the other stuff down and are ready to drive the car. This controls how much fuel your injectors put out at each rpm and boost level. We will get into this later when I know more about your motor and fuel system and turbo.
Lastly on the 1600cc injectors the will not fit in the stock fuel rail with having them machined by someone. You can do this or you can buy a nice expensive secondary fuel rail if you want. Or there are some guys that list how the mickey mouse there to fit. Do a search on here or google to find it. I will try and find out where I had ours machined and see if they have a website. I think this is the way to go really. Maybe you can UPS them to them or a good place and have them shipped back and put hose baby's in! My map should work good for you then.
I hope this helps you out. Get back to me too. Thanks John.
What size turbo do you have? T04? Stock?
Do you have a aftermarket fuel pump? Stock
Do you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator?
Is your 13b motor pretty stock or does it have a street port?
What sensors are not used and what is disabled in the TEC program?
I mean do you use a idle air control IAC? Or Inlet temp sensor IAT?
Or EGO control or exhaust temp. It's ok if any of these sensors are not used. It can be much easier to tune and get you running this way. But they must be disabled in the TEC program if there not used. Also These sensors were included with my TEC but were not used until I installed them myself. I did not install or use the idle air control or IAC on mine as it was not needed to make my car idle. When I installed the other sensors it got more complicated to get the tune right as if any of these number were off they would cause the motor to stall or run off and got me questioning if I had other things right in the computer.
What elevation is it over there. Also important what temp range do you have during the day and night. Each time you start your car pay attention to what the temp is outside then when you get it to idle and run good you have that temp set in the warm up enrichment screen. If you go back later and this only applies to when the motor has cooled down completely and you try and start it and it wont idle. Then go back to your warm up enrichment screen and if its colder out then last time when it idled, try adding more fuel 10% per 10 degrees about. If its warmer try a little less fuel or try adding a little more advance in the spark table 2 to 4 degrees at a time at the 1000 rpm level. I think mine is at 16 degrees advance there.
Also with running 4 550cc injectors You should be able to get the motor to run pretty good as long as your turbo doesn't reach a lot of boost or real high rpm. But be careful you don't want to run these motors to lean and blow a seal. Once you get the 1600 cc injectors in you will be safe but have to re tune the TEC again. But a lot of the same stuff will apply like Spark advance, start up enrichment, warm up enrichment. These screens you wont have to change much. The first thing you will have to do to get the car to run again is play with the TOG number in the Basic Injector parameters screen. Get the motor to rev up smooth with less and miss and hesitation and less raspy sound. I would try around 10 or more for 550cc. Then around 4.5 when you get your 1600cc in.Then go to the same screen and play with the IOT or Injector offset number till you get the motor to idle with out stabbing the throttle. I would start around 1.5 here for the 550cc and around 3.75 when you get your 1600cc.
Last screen you will have to play with a lot GPO control. This is when you got the other stuff down and are ready to drive the car. This controls how much fuel your injectors put out at each rpm and boost level. We will get into this later when I know more about your motor and fuel system and turbo.
Lastly on the 1600cc injectors the will not fit in the stock fuel rail with having them machined by someone. You can do this or you can buy a nice expensive secondary fuel rail if you want. Or there are some guys that list how the mickey mouse there to fit. Do a search on here or google to find it. I will try and find out where I had ours machined and see if they have a website. I think this is the way to go really. Maybe you can UPS them to them or a good place and have them shipped back and put hose baby's in! My map should work good for you then.
I hope this helps you out. Get back to me too. Thanks John.
01-10-09, 07:43 PM
#4
Do you feel lucky punk!!!
[QUOTE=flamethrower13b;8866781]I would like to help you if I can. I need a little more info. So I can better understand which direction to go with your fuel map.
What size turbo do you have? Stock at stock boost level (I think is 8 psi)
Do you have a aftermarket fuel pump? Walbro 255
Do you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator? Adjustable Fuel Regulator with vacuum port 1:1, vacuum port disconected and fuel pressure set at 35 psi
Is your 13b motor pretty stock or does it have a street port? Street port and bridgeported on the middle iron
What sensors are not used and what is disabled in the TEC program? I use the 3 bar MAP, TPS, MAT, Coolant sensor and EGO. The trottle position rate of change enrichment activation is ON. The manifold absolute pressure rate of change enrichment activation is OFF. Deceleration fuel cut-off activation is OFF. Manifold air temperature density compensation activation is ON. EGO feedback control activation is OFF. Coolant advance is 0 in all temperatures.
I mean do you use a idle air control IAC? Or Inlet temp sensor IAT? IAC I dont use it. IAT, yes I used.
Or EGO control or exhaust temp. It's ok if any of these sensors are not used. I never tried that
What elevation is it over there. At sea level
Also important what temp range do you have during the day and night. Around 95*F at day and around 70* to 80*F at night.
The GPO is enable at 2,000 RPM and 110 kpa and 244hz is what I'm using.
If you need any other info, please let me know.
Thanks a lot for the info.
What size turbo do you have? Stock at stock boost level (I think is 8 psi)
Do you have a aftermarket fuel pump? Walbro 255
Do you have a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator? Adjustable Fuel Regulator with vacuum port 1:1, vacuum port disconected and fuel pressure set at 35 psi
Is your 13b motor pretty stock or does it have a street port? Street port and bridgeported on the middle iron
What sensors are not used and what is disabled in the TEC program? I use the 3 bar MAP, TPS, MAT, Coolant sensor and EGO. The trottle position rate of change enrichment activation is ON. The manifold absolute pressure rate of change enrichment activation is OFF. Deceleration fuel cut-off activation is OFF. Manifold air temperature density compensation activation is ON. EGO feedback control activation is OFF. Coolant advance is 0 in all temperatures.
I mean do you use a idle air control IAC? Or Inlet temp sensor IAT? IAC I dont use it. IAT, yes I used.
Or EGO control or exhaust temp. It's ok if any of these sensors are not used. I never tried that
What elevation is it over there. At sea level
Also important what temp range do you have during the day and night. Around 95*F at day and around 70* to 80*F at night.
The GPO is enable at 2,000 RPM and 110 kpa and 244hz is what I'm using.
If you need any other info, please let me know.
Thanks a lot for the info.
01-11-09, 03:19 PM
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Ok now were talking. My TEC 2 is set up almost the same as yours with only one exception. The EGO control is activated on mine. This is not a problem though and I think its good to have yours deactivated for now. I am kind of new to this part of the tec and I am getting a check engine light that flashes the amount of times that point to a EGO error so while my engine runs good and I have it activated more for security to avoid a lean condition I must not have something right in this screen. Also I am having a problem that I think is related to this but could be something else.
The problem I have with mine is when the engine is completely cold, It takes a few minutes to get the TEC to provide spark. If I try cranking the engine it wont start. But if I leave the key on for a few minutes then try cranking it fires right up. I think that it takes a couple minutes for the EGO to heat up and read the right signal but not sure yet.
OK enough of that. On a high note we both run at sea level and your temp range is similar but even smaller range so that makes things easier. You don't need a 3bar map sensor for 8 psi boost but it should work just fine. Just keep in mind when in the TEC screens when its set for a 3bar you really dont need to worry about adjusting the higher KPA screens. Since your not running 15 or 20 psi boost. Mostly focus your efforts on the lower KPA numbers. I will send you a couple of my bin files or maps so you can see what I am running. I would l look at them in the edit file screen then make some adjustments to your bin and save them as new bins before you program your TEC 2. And save your bins also so you can go back if needed. I think these bins will help your motor run better if try to use some of the data and not all of it. Example being the spark timing should help out a bit. This screen should still work good for you. Also I learned in GPO for your secondary injectors. When the numbers increase or decrease from one rpm to another or kpa it needs to be a smooth increase. When there are big jumps in numbers the motor doesn't run as good because the TEC is changing to much to fast. Can I send them in a PM here or should I email them to you? Email would be easier for me. My email is johnnysfast@yahoo.com . Give me a day or so and I will get the newest bins from my dads laptop.
By the way if you want a lot more power for your same engine all you have to do is go with a larger turbo,waste gate, blow off valve and your 1600cc injectors. But I don't know if you will still be able to pass smog. Also more boost equals more power and then fuel becomes a issue and I think 10psi is max for pump fuel so I don't blame you for leaving things alone.
The problem I have with mine is when the engine is completely cold, It takes a few minutes to get the TEC to provide spark. If I try cranking the engine it wont start. But if I leave the key on for a few minutes then try cranking it fires right up. I think that it takes a couple minutes for the EGO to heat up and read the right signal but not sure yet.
OK enough of that. On a high note we both run at sea level and your temp range is similar but even smaller range so that makes things easier. You don't need a 3bar map sensor for 8 psi boost but it should work just fine. Just keep in mind when in the TEC screens when its set for a 3bar you really dont need to worry about adjusting the higher KPA screens. Since your not running 15 or 20 psi boost. Mostly focus your efforts on the lower KPA numbers. I will send you a couple of my bin files or maps so you can see what I am running. I would l look at them in the edit file screen then make some adjustments to your bin and save them as new bins before you program your TEC 2. And save your bins also so you can go back if needed. I think these bins will help your motor run better if try to use some of the data and not all of it. Example being the spark timing should help out a bit. This screen should still work good for you. Also I learned in GPO for your secondary injectors. When the numbers increase or decrease from one rpm to another or kpa it needs to be a smooth increase. When there are big jumps in numbers the motor doesn't run as good because the TEC is changing to much to fast. Can I send them in a PM here or should I email them to you? Email would be easier for me. My email is johnnysfast@yahoo.com . Give me a day or so and I will get the newest bins from my dads laptop.
By the way if you want a lot more power for your same engine all you have to do is go with a larger turbo,waste gate, blow off valve and your 1600cc injectors. But I don't know if you will still be able to pass smog. Also more boost equals more power and then fuel becomes a issue and I think 10psi is max for pump fuel so I don't blame you for leaving things alone.
01-24-09, 05:11 PM
#6
Do you feel lucky punk!!!
Yesterday I set on the Tec2 1.5ms for the IOT and 10ms for the TOG. The engine start a lot better and the idle is more stable. I have not running the car yet on the street. I would sent you the bin file that I'm already using. You can check it make some suggestions.
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