2a+RoN

Its definitely gonna take a bit of work to get everything setup properly, but we can get it. First I think I need a better understanding of the sequential system works so I'll PM you my cell so we can go over some of the details.

-Aaron

P.S. I should have my car at 7Stock next year too, we can have a spool-off. My single is building 6psi by 2000rpms...

TitaniumTT

Spool-off sounds like fun, not sure if it's entirely fair but it sure does sound like fun.

So I thought I'd give a quick holiday update. I called Aaron a few days ago and spent a good 2 hours on the phone going through the sequential operation. Aaron, again, thank you so much for your time. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Things we got accomplished.
1 - Setup all 6 solenoids, and five outputs for the sequentials
2 - Started working on the AIM boost
3 - Set up the two different boost comps, gear and trim switch. I think I'm also going to throw a third into the mix on the gear trim, gear vs throttle. I think that will give much more immediate control of the boost.
4 - Set up Closed Loop Lambda control
5 - Adjusted the Aim Lambda table
6 - There was so much more that was accomplished I just can't remember it all.

The V3 software is really just amazing in what it can do. For anyone thinking about getting a Motec, I really suggest dl'ing the software and playing around with it. It's more than lightyears ahead of what Haltech has to offer.

Right now I'm waiting on a pilot bearing and a few gaskets, then a little more fab in the front end and the car is ready for it's first drive under it's own power in nearly 2 years.

2a+RoN

No problem! Let me know how everything goes.

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Good stuff!

Glad to hear its working out....*anxiously awaites running video*

TitaniumTT

I certainly will. Thanks again Aaron.

All I have is a dig camera, an old one at that.... *thinks about how to upload it without creating a Youtube account*

Parts arrived today, hopefully be tooling around the neighborhood under her own power by new years.

Screenshots of software, hopefully vid, and general feedback to come

RedR1

iTrader: (5)

Email it to me and i'll host it (the vid) on T's website and post a link to this thread. my email: ChristopherTouch @ gmail.com

Anything for my homie Bri-bri

2a+RoN

any updates?

NotTTT

Yep, only the worst kind - the motor blew. Here's the backstory

2 weekends ago a good friend and I said, "todays the day," @ 5:00am the next morning she drove out under her own power....... after being dragged down the driveway with my lifted Cherokee sporting mud tires becuase the driveway is well.... not suited even for walking. So we drive around a little. Coughing spitting and farting and basically undriveable above 4.25k, but we got some miles on her regardless. I'd say maybe 20. In those 20 miles the bumper turned BLACK. Pig stink funk rich running <.7Lambda.

So I played with the fuel a little and the lambda tables per our conversation and got a few more RPM's out of her. Set everything to run non-sequentially and went for a cruise. Holly mother of rotary did that thing pull like a frieght-train! Above ~3.2k when positive manifold pressure was reached the car just sucked you into the seat and the nose actually lifted with stiffer coilovers. This was in 3rd gear. Gentleman, I love rotary boost. The wastegate was set wide open and running ~9psi and the BOV was leaking under boost and hot damn that thing pulled.

I drove around a little bit and made a few more lower RPM pulls in an attempt to get some decent datalogs. Then I idled her down a little, had dinner, idled back up to temp, put some snow tires on to get back into the garage and pulled the logs. I got nothing but idleing around. Only had about 6 minutes of data because I was sampling alot of things more than I needed to. So I cleared the logs, pulled a little more fuel up top and dicked around with the idle a little. Never got back to the smoothness that I had earlier. Oh well.

Went for a few more pulls and the power just wasn't there. I got the lambda up to ~.8 and had my buddy punch it. She went all the way to 5850 before lifting, running ~9 psi and 25 psi EMAP and ~15* timing. Stupid pig rich still, and timing way retarded and she popped. 0 compression on all three faces in the front rotor and 100 psi all faces rear.

I had a conversation with my ceramic coater today and the plan now is to haul the motor, make the little adjustments to the piping that I need to and get those parts to him. Crack the motor and see where I stand. Continue on the the body work and hopefully be ready for DGRR in 2.5 months. I would LOVE to go the that but it depends on how badly the motors fragged. We'll see by the end of the week hopefully.

I have an N/A motor downstairs that will hopefully be good for some housings and I'm praying that the RE rotors are still useable. Time will tell and some more pics to follow.

On the bright side.... while idleing the oil temps got to ~200*. Within a few miles of light driving they were down to 140*. I guess the oil coolers are working well. Also, with a non-vented hood, I was getting AIT's close to ambient. I guess the ducting is working as well. Seeing 39.1*F AIT's while under full boost and it being ~30* outside was nice. Would've been nicer if the motor held together.

I'm entertaining theory's on why she popped. The history is this. 5 years ago the motor was imported. It sat in someones basement for a year before he sold it, then it sat in someone elses garage for year until I bought it. It sat in my garage for a year before I started the swap and I've been working on the swap for exactely 2 years now. For the 3 years that I've had it I would occasionally pour a little oil into the spark plug holes and rotate her by hand. The motor was previously rebuild but not ported. I can tell becuase the housings are TII/FD style exhaust sleeves. I comp tested the motor a few years back. Just the keg on an engine stand. Poured some oil into the spark plug holes and rotated by hand a bunch before using the starter. Got a max of 107 in the rear and 105 in the front. This is stone cold with oil in the combustion chamber. Last night she made 0 in the front and 100 in the rear after being run.

So, theory's?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

I've lost engines to overly rich fueling, with retarded ignition. Not sure exactly how it occurs, but I'm thinking its just too much fuel being sparked too early causing too much pressure BTDC.

Its possible the engine had 3 piece seals also - but you'll know that soon enough.

Sucks to hear, never good news to pop a seal. (thats my new saying vs. BLOWN ENGINE! ) Hope you can get it up and going for DGRR for my selfish reasons of wanting to see this beast and shake your hand

But importantly - How much fun did you have playing with the MoTeC??

NotTTT

I looked at the timing maps. It gains - moves farther BTDC, upto 23* I believe to 150% load - as RPMS increase which is what you want to happen. After 150% load the timing falls closer to TDC. I had ~14* BTDC where the incident occured. As engine RPM's increase, the physical time needed for pressure to rise before TDC is less so more timing needs to be added. Running retarded ignition - closer to TDC should only result in decreased torque. Unless.... and this is what I think happened, the timing is SO retarded and the fuel SO rich that the flame speed or burn time is SOOO slow that combustion is still happening while the intake two cycles behind it is starting. The overlap present in these motors allows the combustion to be pushed into the intake stroke and boom - pre-ignition. Basically a mechanical version of what happened to your motor when you saw that 50*BTDC spark in your datalogs. I BELIEVE thats what happened.

Although, the motor was getting weaker after that first frieghttrain like pull and I would expect an event like the one I described to have intantly blown the motor, not hurt it. Time will tell. I hope to have enough time tonight and tomorrow night to get the motor out and crack her open. I'll post pics if the carnage is great enough

I'm hoping to have her ready and down there for DGRR. Definately want to see your sled and shake your hand as well. I don't think I'll be attending 7Stock this year as some asshat is getting married the last weekend of september which is usually when 7Stock is held. Although it makes for a nice 1 year anny trip for him. In reality that asshat is one of my closest friends and I was giving his fiance a little grief about it. Regardless, it makes DGRR that much more important to attend. This incident only adds a little time for the rebuilding and breakin so as long as there are no huge parts delays and funding remains decent, there should be no reason NOT to be there.

I had quite a bit of fun playing with the MoTeC. It really is a phenomenal piece of hard/software. I'm starting to learn and really be able to navigate through it quickly which is definately a nice thing. The only bit that I'm having trouble on is the communcation between the Motec and the AIM dash. I cannot figure out how to get the AIM to display my low sump/2stroke warning lights. I can manually move the senders and watch the MoTeC read the low warning, but cannot get the AIM to look at the right channel. Really minor.

Oh, and after the poppage occured I had a great idea on how to run the twins, TPS based. Basically run them in non-sequential operation below say ~50% throttle. This will keep me out of boost until >~4k rpm. If you're cruising the streets you don't need the boost which really only detracts from your MPG. Depress the throttle past 50% and she'll go into sequential operation. If I'm below say 4.5k RPM, the turbo control will snap shut diverting all the exhaust to the primary.... instant boost. Then as EMAP builds the Pre-Spool valve vents to the secondary keeping the primary boost level in check until the PreSpool can do no more and there's the transition. I think getting the turbo's to operate smoothly will be more trial and error than the actual tuning.

limbar85

iTrader: (21)

What kind of egt sensors did you end up using then? Do they need an amplifier like Motec's catalog shows or can it be connected directly to your computer?

Also, what kind of oil temp and fuel pressure (if you are even logging this) sensors did you use?

NotTTT

I got a k-type thermocoupler from TeamRip on Howard Colemans reccomendations. It needs an amplifier as shown in MoTeC's catalog. I believe I have a few pics up of that little piece. I'm not convinced on the accuracy of it. The wires got pinched when installed. Not cut but pinched. 1100* EGTs is silly low for retarded ignition timing.

Oil temp and fuel pressure are of course being logged. I used autometers 3 wire replacement senders for pressure, both oil and fuel. They look surprisingly similar to the OEM/Motec senders for much less coin. Oil Temp is a bosch unit.

2a+RoN

wow, that sucks..

afgmoto1978

iTrader: (6)

Every build has trials and tribulations, get another engine built that's better and badder than the last and proceed with your project.

Good Luck

One of these days I will be going with Motec.

NotTTT

Yeah well the history of this motor is unknown. I was actually wrong, it hasn't been run in 5 years. It was previously rebuilt as is evident by the TII/FD exhaust sleeves, but no intake porting was ever done. I've had the motor for 3 years now. I guess the lesson is to always rebuild a JSpec motor regardless if the compression is 107/105. Had I stripped it down, everything more than likely would've been reuseable for the cost of a rotor kit/gasket kit. Now I'm praying for useable rotors/housings

Yeah, not quite the update I wanted to give. Oh well. I sent the logs/map off to the gent that I purchased the MoTeC from and he could NOT find any reason for the motor to go. Hopefully tomorrow or saturday I'll get a chance to get a look at the engine. Bedridden today with the flu - weak.

limbar85

iTrader: (21)

Are you using a Motec egt amplifier then? I just called FJO last evening and they said that they think over summer is when they should have their new amplifier released. It will be sure as hell cheaper than Motec too

NotTTT

Yes I am using the MoTeC Thermo coupler amp. Yes it was "expensive," ~$270ish I believe. Great little tiny unit that doesn't need any calibration at all. The logs show the temp, not the voltage which I like. In the long run, & if I devulged how much I've poured into this project for 4 hours of run time so far, most would laugh, but $270 is negligable. In the end though, to me anyway, it's only money, I'm older and whatever......

So a good friend helped me pull and crack the motor lastnight. Here's the damage

Rear iron - good
Rear housing - good
Rear rotor - good
Rear stat gear/bearing - good
Center iron - Fragged
Front Stat gear-good, bearing - toast (See Chadwicks idler pulley GB thread for pics, I'm buying one. After ~20- 30 miles and 4 hours of run time the bearing is fried)
Front housing - fucked
Front rotor - WAY FUCKED
Front iron - FUBAR

It looks to me like I lost a corner seal of all things judging by the scarring on the iron, the collapsed state of it, the missing plug (no it didn't just fall out). That took out an apex seal, cracked a second, and pinned a third. Very interesting. I don't think it was timing or fuel related at all, I think it was just a questionable engine to begin with. Oh well.

Brighter news - that same close friend got a lead on a RE core that should get me to shaking Joes hand @ DGRR so I'm quite happy. Sad news, I think our spool off will have to wait a year Aaron, that same very good friend of mine is getting married the last week of september which will probably keep me out of 7Stock attendance.

Waiting on confirmation of a few things on this core and then I'm buying it. Parts should be off to the coater on Monday, and I should be finished with the body work in a few weeks, so assuming I don't pop this one, all should be well in my little rotary universe.

Had another 40 minute conversation with my EMS guru today (we trade free advice, it works very well for both of us), heres a question for you Aaron. Under the set-up, you can choose which Lambda sensor you've got. Mine in particular is a Bosch LSU 4.0. Questions are
1) Fast heat or normal, how the hell do you tell the difference?
2) Calibration, input was default 1000 and I didn't see any number or reference that would indicate that it should be changed. Just so that I know the lambda is correct in the future, how would you go about getting the calibration number? Free air calibration? I don't particularily like that.

2a+RoN

1) Use normal heat. The fast heat option turns on the sensor heat once the ecu is turned on, it will shorten the life of the sensor and is only used when necessary.

2) The first calibration number refers to the number marked on the sensor so just enter that number. The second is free-air calibration for once the sensor ages and may need to be calibrated again.

NotTTT

1) Good to know, thank you

2) I did not see any calibration number on the sensor whatsoever. Motors pulled so I'll go look again and see what I can find.

Thank Aaron.

2a+RoN

Yeah, actually I just took a look at an LSU 4.2 sitting here and I didn't see one either. Hmmm, not sure if bosch used to include a calibration number and stopped on newer stuff or what.. It seems as if there's no number you may just have to use a free-air calibration.

NotTTT

Free air calibration eh? Why can't it ever be easy Well I guess everything else is pretty damn streamlined so we shouldn't complain too much. Thanks so much Aaron, I'll give you a shout should I need a little help with that. I'll most likely give you a quick call for a little chat on timing as well.... Thanks again.

New/used also semi-blown engine paid for and should be here sometime early next week. Time to paint the bay and get everything else back together I suppose. I still need to get some pics of that motor up.

elwood

iTrader: (1)

Back to the popped engine -- verify that the timing marks on your pulley are correct. If the engine was rebuilt, you never know what you have.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

sorry to hear about your front rotor. Have you considered tuning the car with no turbo just to get a clean base map, and understanding of the motor?

I know Aaron was NA for a while, as was I. Once she ran okay, I slowly added boost. It was 2 weeks of running NA before I boosted 1 psi.

Not for a breaking in either; it was just to get a clean map and get a feel for what the car liked.

Don't feel too bad, I had to pull my motor apart after 2500 miles due to a bad set of seals...

limbar85

iTrader: (21)

If your still sneaking around here TitaniumTT, please pm me. I was just wondering what kind of mil-spec connectors you purchased and where to got them.

raceralexuk

Really nice thread, great work and plenty of information for when I start to wire up (not re-wire) my RX.

I have one question, the RE-Speed mount for the oil filter, where can I buy one? I have had a look on the RE-Speed website but I don't see them.. wouldn't mind one myself