Terrh

iTrader: (7)

k please help!

I have a datalog but it's too big to post (1.25mb )

I got my timing right, for some reason the cranking advance was -69 deg so I set it to 0, restabbed/reset the timing, added a bit of ATF and got it fired up!

I had it running for probalby 5 minutes with no issues, didn't try to let it idle on it's own because I was sure that the idle was set too low and it's a /very/ fresh motor with only 2-3 minutes of running on it before this point. It didn't run perfectly att his point (misfires and etc) but it did turn reasonably well. I didn't try to drive it (maybe I should've heh) but I let it get warmed up (to about 180F) and then shut it down (it stalled actually after I had let off the gas, I would've kept it running if it would idle on its own)

I could not get it restarted after it stalled I even added a bit mroe ATF and cleaned the plugs up.

my TPS is not co-operating at all, in fact if the throttle fails to close completely (something I'm working on, can't figure out why that's happening) it will show as WOT when I'm not even touching it! And it seems that even if I set the flood clear TPS value to 255 that flood clear mode will still activate.


If someone has adapted a diifferent TPS to the S4 TII throttlebody please show me what you used and how you did it!


I forgot to save today's MSQ but it's the same except as the attached for the cranking angle (0deg) and the req_fuel I set to 8.0ms, and hard rev limiter at 4k.

I had a couple tach spikes today in the upper revs (3000+, that's upper for right now heh) so I need to readjust the pots in the MS again. Signal is very clean below 3000 though.


I would really love to get this thing drivable tomorrow, wish someone was in my area that could help

thanks everyone!

(rmove the .txt from the .msq file to view)

muythaibxr

most of the time from what I've seen when you can't get it restarted after a stall your cranking pulse widths are either too high or too low... so you're either flooding or starving the engine.

renns

Not sure what happened with that .msq, but it's corrupt. It's full of 50's and 63's for the various settings. The date in the header is from June as well, so maybe this is some old .msq?

I checked your original settings against the FAQ, and there is one discrepancy that may solve your problem. In the FAQ, the 'Cranking advance Angle' is greyed out, which makes sense when using trigger return crank timing. In the latest code release (029q2), which is on your box, the 'Cranking advance Angle' is no longer greyed out. Hitting the 'F1' key in MegaTune brings up the following:

So it appears with this code version, a proper Cranking advance Angle must be set properly in spite of Trigger Return cranking timing mode being selected. Your wheel decoder settings should have the trigger (60 deg BTDC) at 1, and return at 3. Given the return is two teeth later, that's 2/12*360=60 degrees later, or right at TDC. I'd suggest you set the "Cranking advance Angle" to 0 and give that a try.

muythaibxr

the reason the proper crank timing has to be set (and it did before, the graying out was actually a bug) is because dwell still happens in a timed manner... so if you have the timing set wrong, the dwell might not ever occur, even if the spark is still firing on a tooth.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I think my current .msq is messed up. argh.

I'll post it in about 5 minutes.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

ok I attached my current .MSQ

I have a log of it running but even zipped it's 200KB and the forum won't let me attach it

roger can I email it to you?

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

no ideas?

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

bump? no ideas?

N1XRR

Your TPS, that problem needs to be fixed or the TPS needs to be removed. You'll lose flood-clear, but the car will actually startup and run fine without it.

With a narrow-range TPS, unfortunatly, only a little bit of throttle means "wide open" according to it. Adapting a GM full-range isn't a bad, neither is finding a S5 setup. Try to search and find pictures where people put full range GM sensors on their cars and you might be able to find pictures. I purchased one from somebody which already had a GM sensor mounted with a bracket and everything. You should be able to find a similar deal.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I've gone to MAPdot but I still can't get the damn thing started
I have no idea if my req_fuel is in the right range, I can't see it needing to be any higher than what I've got it at but there it is.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I still /cannot/ get this car to start using the starter.

I've got it to very nearly start once or twice (RPM's up to the 500 ish range but it just won't "catch") - but no luck.

I pulled it down the street, after 3-4 seconds at 1500+RPM it will start up and run fine. It's even drivable. I can't get it to idle below 2000RPM, if I let it drop below 2k it will stall. I've driven it for about 5-10 minutes now, I improved the AFR's greatly but I think it's still too rich (wideband now reading around 11.0 instead of pegged at 10:1. Cops came and yelled at me, I guess someone on my street didn't like hearing it run oh well. I'm going to try and get it started again this afternoon and then go for a drive. I adjusted the pots, especially R52 to try and get nicer tach readings once the revs go up. It seems to be very stable at low RPM but not so much above 3000. I'm also either hitting the limiter (which I have set at 4k, fresh engine) or the car does not like seeing any higher revs than 3500 or so, because it backfires/stumbles/etc.

Any ideas on how I can make this easier to start would be greatly appreciated!

Am I correct in assuming that as I can adjust R52 as high as I want as long as it can still see revs while cranking? (not that it seems to matter since it won't start with the starter anyways at this point)

muythaibxr

IF you're getting tach noise, it'd be good to fix that first...
also, I'll take a look at your msq later and see if I can find any major problems.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

tach noise is pretty much cleared up.

Here's the MSQ I've been using.

if you see anything wrong with it please let me know!

I have datalogs as well, I can't get much out of them but maybe someone here can, if anyone wants to have a look I can email them.

I'm really wondering if perhaps my VE table is wacky, but really I'd like to know why I can't get it to start on it's own! I can deal with running fuel stuff easily, it's getting it to START without having to push/pull/whatever it that the problem is.

idle would be nice too

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I was looking over your MSQ file since I was on hold with Rogers Cable for insanely long last night and I noticed a few things. Keep in mind that it's very hard to troubleshoot these problems by remote control. A person really needs the car present to see the effects of changes...

Your VE table looks very odd to me. When I plot it, it sort of looks like a sunset with lines of colour. The table should start with a low VE in the bottom left and then move to a high VE in the top right. So it should fan out from blue to green to yellow to red at the top half of the table. I don't have an example but you can probably picture it. The values for the 500 RPM bins also seem VERY high and could cause problems just after the engine catches.

Do you have the type of MAP sensor set right in Constants?

Have you tried the standard priming settings? I almost always set the ECU to use standard prime with a priming pulse of 10mS.

Is your cranking RPM a reasonable level? 300RPM or under?

Disable afterstart enrichment and just try to keep the car running with your foot. That will make it a LOT easier to keep it running before the VE table is tuned.

I generally also disable all the warmup enrichments until the VE table is at a reasonable level. Otherwise you are just firehosing fuel into the engine and it will be a real pain to get running...

That's all I can think of right now.

muythaibxr

I agree with just about everything Aaron says except the cranking rpm.

Generally you want it about 100 rpms higher than you actually crank... so if you're cranking at about 290 rpms, you want to set the cranking rpm to 400.

This may be a Megasquirt-ism though.

renns

I can't see zeroing warmup and ase gaining much, as they only add 13% and 8% fuel respectively at 80 degF. These values are quite reasonable for startup/warmup operations. Get it running any way you can (but don't get arrested!), then once warm (ase and warmup are expired) start tweaking the VE table in the low rpm area to see if you can get it to run at lower rpm. Don't get too caught up in watching the AFR display during this process, just listen to the engine. Lean misfires can result in a momentary 'rich' spike on the WB, as the extra unburned fuel from the lean rotor dumps across the sensor. Black smoke/smell means rich, hunting/surging typically indicates lean operation.

That VE table (if it's still the same as I sent you), is the result of tuning to 12:1 at idle, 16:1 at low power cruise, back to 11:1 at high power. It may be a bit choppy, as I was playing with autotune just prior to sending this table, but those basic settings start and warmup my car very nicely, and have been driven extensively. In the high power areas, I tossed in some arbitrary higher numbers to hopefully keep you rich. If you do find a table from someone with a setup closer to your own, take it and give it a try. Just watch the scaling based on req_fuel.

Be sure to check the cranking rpm setting as Ken and Aaron mentioned. Who knows...

Seems to me that as you can't idle or even run at low rpm when warm there may be some other fundamental problem outside the MS. Perhaps there's a vacuum leak in the intake somewhere that is affecting one rotor only? Just guessing...

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

I know the car is rich, the wideband indicates rich but also after running it for maybe a total of 15 minutes since the engine's been put in the car, there's black soot on the bumper.

I really wonder about that VE table, it looks nothing like any other I've seen. It doesn't do the "gentle slope" that most seem to do.

Cranking RPM is set at about 50+RPM higher than how high it cranks.. I usually see no higher than 250RPM cranking, usually 220-240. I've got it into the ~500rpmish ranges a few times when it'll /almost/ catch but it never seems to actually get fired up unless I'm really really lucky.

I'm taking the rear bumper cover off so that it doesn't get damaged, then we'll just use my bmw to push-start it.. I/think/ that that's not illeagal.

I am also wondering about the afterstart enrichment not being enough, or being too much, or whatever.

while I haven't looked at the map sensor in constants, it should say 300kpa... it's a 3 bar. I'll check it tomorrow....

I have no idea wtf to do on making it start and idle, I'm pretty sure that I can make it drivable, but this starting thing is driving me nuts! Hopefully I can get it running and take it for a long drive in the country tomorrow, that would be great.

Aaron, I'll pay your gas if you want to come down.. you have change for a loonie, right? :P

renns

Your VE table will undoubtedly end up different than mine due to the many differences in config. Why not take that 13bdarren VE table to start, or even his whole .msq, as his config sounds pretty close to yours? Then read up on the tuning process at www.megasquirt.info, and you'll be on your way. The whole setup/first start process is convered in detail.

If it's anywhere close, it should be drivable. I've been helping with the setup and tuning on a BMW 3.0Csi with T4 turbo setup the last few weeks. The guy drove it to my shop, but it wasn't running great. It ends up the MAP sensor wasn't connected correctly, resulting in a constant map of around 98 kPa. His 12x12 table was effectively 1x12 due to that fixed map value...and it was drivable! Fortunately he didn't boost it much, and his default map was on the rich side.

As for starting, have you looked at the datalog from any recent start attempts? That'll show you immediately if your cranking rpm is correct. Are the plugs wet/flooded during start attempts? If not, then start bumping up the cranking values until it catches. Once running, get it warm and tune the areas of the VE table you can reach while sitting in the driveway. If you can't get it to run at engine speeds below 2k even with tuning, then there's issues elsewhere as I said earlier. I assume you've verified the timing and locked the CAS?

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

the cranking RPM is correct
I can see both with the log and with the "tach" on the megasquirt display.

my car is drivable! it just won't idle or start
I think my throttle sticks a *tiny* bit because I got it to idle around 1800 once, though I suspect that even in the end I won't have an idle below 1500 due to port size and timing.
The timing is correct as far as I can tell, I've checked a couple times with my timing light. I think there were some issues before, but they're all sorted out now.

The plugs are "wet" but never seem to have black stuff on them like they always seem to in a flooded rotary, now that I think about it it's probably because there is no carbon anywhere since it's a new motor!

maybe I'll drive it out to you roger if I can't figure it out lol.

I'm going to play with the afterstart enrichment and stuff today, really anything that I can think of. Is there a way to import just a VE table or do I have to do it by hand?

13bdarren

I have the same problem with starting it took some time with a fresh engine. I needed at least 1500km on before I could get it to start easy. I think you have a half bridge like me. I need 10-12 deg timing at idle and 0 split. Or it would not stay going. Also bridgy will need a higher then normal idle. 1100-1500 rpm

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

thanks darren, yes I have a halfbridge as well - I'm running a slightly different ignition setup than you and larger primary injectors - but otherwise our setups are nearly identical from a "getting it running" standpoint.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The reason I disable the afterstart and warm when I'm tuning initially is to remove any complications. I've troubleshot (shooted? ) a lot of cars that oscillate on startup only to find that they run pig rich, which drops the RPM back into cranking range, which restarts the afterstart enrichment, which makes them run pig rich. So I've gotten into the habit of disabling those until the VE table is tuned so the car will idle at a reasonable AFR...Your mileage may vary though.

I forgot it was a new engine....Any new engine is going to be a bit of a problem to get doing, especially a half bridge. Set the idle at around 1800 or 2K, make sure the TPS is zero'ed after.

What kind of vacuum signal are you seeing? I suspect that the engine will pull very little vacuum at idle, which may be a problem. Save your existing map, then switch the car to Alpha-N and try again...just as an experiment.

I still say that you should linearize that VE table. Big jumps aren't going to help especially when those big jumps are areas you would be running through just after starting. Also keep in mind that you WILL have to spend a lot of time tuning that table even if it is from a car that is "just like" yours. Don't use the wideband at this point...It won't help.

Jeff20B

iTrader: (13)

Aaron, my 20B did the same oscillations in warmup mode. Then when the fast idle solenoid would close, I couldn't keep it running with my foot.

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

So I pushed it down the street again, got it fired up and immeadiatly went for a drive to get out of town where I could actually do something!

Have it halfass tuned between 1500 and 3500RPM, I had to take a TON of fuel out. I still don't have it running "perfectly" though, it's misfiring and just doesn't /quite/ sound right except under load, where it sounds fine despite pegging the wideband.. still need to take some more fuel out in the higher revs/load ranges.

I got it to idle, it sounds like a nitro car. Except /slightly/ quieter.
It will start now with the starter when hot, (pretty easily even!) I haven't tried when cold but I don't think it will. The engine pulls practically no vacuum at idle, 1800RPM MAP reading is like 68-70kpa. There are no leaks. I had it running for about 2 hours today and improved it 100fold over what it was before, but it still needs some more improvement for sure. I think my wastegate is leaking which is making the car obnoxiously loud I have no idea why it would leak but I'm pretty sure it is.

it also won't rev past 36-3700rpm or so. That's right where my secondaries come online so I'm wondering if there is a problem with them, at this point it doesn't really matter since I can mostly focus on making it more drivable.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

68-70KPA doesn't sound too bad.

Take the wideband out before you foul the sensor (if you not already have). You don't need it at this point. Lean it out until it starts to hunt, then richen it up until it's smooth (well, bridgeport smooth anyway). Drive around at light load and pull fuel out until your eyes no longer burn, then start using the wideband.

I doubt there is a problem with your secondaries, it's more likely that the VE table is just too rich.