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Quantum Racing One.Zero Coilovers (Group Buy Interest)
I imagine this would be the first offering of this product for the FD3S in the states, so let’s see where this goes. It seems as though I’ve become the primary source of used Quantum Racing shocks for the FD3S over the years, while also becoming a source of quality rebuilds due to my own frustrations of having other companies rebuild my shocks. However, finding good Quantum shocks to rebuild in the first place is difficult because they generally all need to be sourced from Japan, but that partnership and product line also stopped in 2008. I’ve been working with Quantum for a while now to make this possible, so why not see if there is interest in some brand-new Quantum Racing products?
First off, you might be saying… the Quantum Racing brand doesn’t sound familiar. Well, let’s start with who they are. Quantum Racing is a UK company founded in 1988 by a former Penske and Fox Racing Shocks engineer. The brand quickly rose through the ranks and has since supplied winning solutions for Formula Ford, Formula 1, Formula 3, Formula Nippon, DTM, Nascar, JGTC, CART, and countless club racing classes. They manufacture and assemble everything in-house – meaning, quality and performance is their focus. They literally hand craft each and every one of their works of art. Where else could you have seen the brand? When Quantum was still supplying the Japanese market, they were considered to be the premier brand and also the go-to for RE Amemiya. But guess what… the new Zero series is an even better product.
The Quantum Racing One.Zero suspension is the perfect setup for anyone seeking high performance cornering capabilities on the track, while maintaining a comfortable ride on the street.
Product highlights of what I’m shooting for: · Aluminum body 1-way adjustment (low speed compression/rebound) · Swift® main springs (12K front/10K rear or 10K front/8K rear options) (we can discuss other rates) · Floating upper spring perch · Aluminum top hat with quality ¾” FK spherical bearings
While I don’t have the final assembly weights of their new shocks, for reference, a set I sold in the past (old style) weighed 7.8lbs (F) and 6.7lbs (R) in comparison to a set of Aragosta assemblies that weighed 11.4lbs (F) and 10.3lbs (R). We used to measure weight reduction in ounces when I raced, but roughly 3.5lbs per corner is ridiculous weight reduction without even sacrificing durability.
Approximate group buy pricing with a 5-person minimum: ~$3,000. Goal is 10% ($300) off from retail pricing. I get that it might seem expensive to many, but you really do get what you pay for with suspension products. Because Quantum Racing’s Zero line all share the same basic architecture and many of the same parts between models, I can make the Two.Zero available if you are particularly interested in having two-way adjustments. Expect that price to be at least $1250 more depending on quantities.
Post below if you have a serious interest in participating. If there is enough interest, I'll make sure to comply with the forum's vendor fees and start the GB.
(Not an FD3S coilover, but an example of Quantum Racing's craftsmanship)
There isn't "coming development work" for the FD application. Quantum has made standard coilovers (off the shelf just like any other brand) for the FD for over 15 years that have nothing to do with knowledgable clients with specific application requirements, but their products can certainly be tailored for special circumstances as you mention. They have simply updated their older designs (like the ones I often sell and were also distributed abundantly in Japan) to their newer Zero line.
There hasn't been enough interest yet on the group buy. However, I do have 3 sets of rebuilt Quantum coilovers available with varying spring rates. Example below:
I have of course always noticed how RE Amemiya uses Quantum coilovers on the dominating Maou RX-7s on the Touge challenge that take place on the Gunma Cycle park bicycle paths that are far from the typical pristine smooth Japanese pavement.
It takes great parts working together to put the smack down on tuned R35 GTRs, R34 GTRs, M3s the S2000.
RANT ON:
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I wondered if their use of Quantum coilovers was a business relationship deal like with Greddy.
However, RE Amemiya actually used at least Quantum shock bodies (cant see the pistons/shafts)- wheras AS FAR AS I COULD SEE Greddy Mitsubishi turbos are so bad for rotary application Amemiya san gave up and kept to stock twins. Guess he could have built a hybrid Greddy turbo using the Greddy housings if Greddy would have signed off on it.
Note: Feed is partnered with HKS and AS FAR AS I CAN SEE their Maou RX7 used HKS T04Z turbo kit till HKS partnered more publically with Garret and started distributing Garret in Japan instead of hybridizing and rebadging Garret turbos.That is when Feeds switched to newer Garret variants im the Maou RX7.
RANT POINT:
Relationships govern decisions in Japan more than in continental USA- its more like Hawaii in that respect.
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/RANT
Since you are familiar with rebuilding Quantum coilivers can you tell me how they approached street car issues on their coilovers similar to how Ohlins Japanese made street coilovers (Road & Track) did?
How does the highspeed blow-off circuit work for low displacement high velocity shock movements compared to Ohlin's touted DFV?
What method of temperature compensation is incorporated into the valving for consistent performance like Ohlins Bi-metal system?
I like the idea of articulated top hats to stop spring coil binding,.
I was looking into the Sakebomb conversion pieces for the Ohlins and/or swapping to barrel wound springs when I swap to spherical bushings instead of poly bushings.
I am trying to minimize suspension binding because our race course is very rough and I use low profile tires for the available 300mm+ widths.
VERY COOL TO SEE MORE LEGENDARY BRANDS REPRESENTED IN THE USA!
I wondered if their use of Quantum coilovers was a business relationship deal like with Greddy.
Possibly. Quantum cut ties with their Japanese distributor in 2008 for numerous reasons: (1) the market became slower in Japan; (2) Quantum updated their designs to their current Zero range; (3) it sounds like the Japanese distributor may have had some management issues. I can't speak to what deal RE Amemiya had with the Quantum rep in Japan. That doesn't mean production of the shocks specifically stopped then because the distributor continued to build and supply shocks for years after. Hell, I'm pretty sure you could still get new Quantum shocks from RE Amemiya despite the Japanese vendor not even receiving Quantum parts for over a decade.
I haven't taken apart any "RE Amemiya" spec Quantum coilovers, but I can guarantee you that the internals are the same in relation to shafts and pistons. The shim stack might be changed slightly to adjust the dampening curve based on higher spec spring rates (18K/16K), but I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly the same as well. Quantum defined two specs for the FD3S: street (14K/12K) and sport (18K/16K). Having rebuilt many of both and having the spec sheets, the shims are the same between the two. The only difference is a 10mm shorter shaft travel for the front and 8mm shorter rear via an internal spacer (they use the same shaft lengths). That why I'm betting that RE Amemiya simply used the "sport" spec and put their sticker on it.
Since you are familiar with rebuilding Quantum coilovers can you tell me how they approached street car issues on their coilovers similar to how Ohlins Japanese made street coilovers (Road & Track) did?
People have asked me a similar questions in the past so I'll try to just reference those. To save some time, here is the copy/paste version. Sorry -- this is a LOT of data and might be more than you're looking for, but at least I've got the information in one place for people to reference.
Just wondering, why is it that you refer to these as a street setup?
How do these compare to Ohlins? Are these more of a track oriented setup or also ok for the street? Damping/rebound adjustable? Can the 10k spring be used in the front and get 8k for the rears, or 8/6 for a more street friendly setup?
What makes a damper a "track" or "street" damper? Features, spring rates, and valving for those spring rates, among many other things. A 4-way adjustable damper is just as much of a street damper as it is a track damper if the spring rate/valving is set softer for the street. Of course, a 4-way damper has no place on the street because you'll never get it properly setup with only street driving. Realistically, it's just a waste of money for features you can't utilize. Even on the track, you'd highly benefit from having data logging capabilities (damper position, velocity histograms, damper force, sector times, multi-axis accelerations, ect.) to optimize a 4-way adjustment. If you got it fine tuned on the track with street spring rates and then went to the street with it, is it now a "street" damper? Sure - why not!? Again, it's still overkill though.
That doesn't mean it doesn't have important features that are great for the street and track, or even that it doesn't include important features that make it stand out amongst Quantum's competitors! What are you getting from these Quantum dampers that you probably aren't getting from other companies? Quantum incorporates a low friction design between their piston wear band design, hard anodized aluminum body, and upper cap seals. That incorporated with their low nitrogen pressure due to the use of a second lower piston results in increased stability, tire contact, and response. I don't know exactly what Ohlins pressures are at, maybe +175psi? Don't quote me. Some FD shocks might even be higher than that. Quantum's baseline spec is 120 psi and that is a great advantage. The picture below basically translates to say that because the reaction force is small on the Quantum damper, the ride is comfortable in comparison to a "rugged" ride of your typical high reaction force damper as depicted by the right (with 355 psi set!)
There is an internal clip that retains a second "piston" plate. While other cars may have a stack of shims on the 2nd lower piston as shown in the left picture, the FD version only has 1 upper shim with a bleed hole in it and the shim only flexes during rebound (i.e. closed during compression with the exception of the small bleed hole). I'd guess their intent is to force all flow control to occur through the needle valve and piston stack during high speed compression to force that quick "blow off" during fast bumps. Think about what would happen in the right picture in high speed compression - the damper doesn't really dampen anything and your car goes flying off the bumps with a seriously harsh force due to the high pressure setting, but then the damper response is coincidentally terrible. You may very well be 250 psi in another brand while the Quantum is around 120 psi. In the Quantum, the gas piston movement is minimal (despite a much lower gas pressure) as the lower "piston" plate shim prevents flow from occurring, therefore forcing oil pressure relief through the piston shim stack. During rebound, the thin lower single shim flexes up (i.e. it's virtually a 1 way valve for rebound) to allow the lower piston to flow at a much higher rate for faster rebound. The Quantum probably has the same effect as the Ohlins DFV with a much simpler design. Let's be honest and get over the DFV hype though - it's not needed, adds complexity, and adds another unnecessary tuning variable. These are all things I, ME, personally don't want in a damper.
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I'll preface this with the fact that I have no hands on experience with Ohlin dampers. I can only give my opinion as a mechanical engineer with race car design and racing experience. That was all in my previous life though so maybe I'm just blowing smoke now days.
So my personal opinion? I believe Quantum Racing makes a much higher quality damper for the FD3S. Quantum meticulously hand crafts each and every piece with designs rooted in racing. They don't rely on large manufacturing assembly lines and don't compromise for lower quality "street dampers" like Ohlins does. After all, Ohlins is in it for large manufacturing quantities, lower costs, and increased profit. Again - just personal opinions here. Quantum is in it to literally make the best damper they can make. Don't get me wrong though, this doesn't apply to all Ohlins dampers -- their racing series like the TTX are top notch. I've known plenty of racing teams run these bad boys. But those shocks are probably built on a smaller scale, with higher tolerance manufacturing, more hands on, and more meticulous assembly like Quantum. I don't think the basic Ohlins DFV shocks get near what you get from Quantum until you start getting custom built ones like Sakebomb makes with their FP Spec. I wish the FD community would place a higher emphasis on quality dampers and make Quantum T5's like this or Sakebomb's FP Spec's 'thee' standard.
As far as Ohlins "DFV" technology - yeah its a good feature to have and it certainly makes it stand out from your standard coilover. It works well for the street, but you'll have compromises in other areas for this feature. You can accomplish the same concept using other shock designs like Quantum does. Quantum uses a second piston separator plate (you could pretty much say it is a Dual Flow Valve of sorts) that enables shocks to have the quick high-speed blowoff and maintain fast rebound response like the DFV accomplishes.
All that to be said, the Ohlin DFV is a highly praised damper and I could never fault anyone for purchasing it. People love it, it works great, and it's a good price. __
The damper is designed to work well on both the track and street for the reasons I've stated above. The dampening specific to what spring rates you're running is the more driving factor of is it a "track" or "street" damper. A shitty Tein Flex revalved for 18K springs can be considered a "track" damper - that doesn't mean its worth a damn on the track though. There are certainly other features that might show up on a "track" damper like upper spring perches to minimize hysteresis in damper curves. Or having aluminum vs steel shock bodies because shaving a few pounds on every corner is crucial when you are measuring 0.002 seconds shaved off every lap. Or having high quality internal shims that are consistent and don't change your dampening curves after running them for 6 months (i.e. they haven't worn out from all the flexing). __
A 10K/8K setup is good and what I'd consider a very street friendly setup. I think I sold mobash a 12K/10K setup that he's been very happy about on the street and that was even a non-adjustable Quantum set. The 8K/6K is probably a little too soft and we'd probably need to start looking at revalving for the 6K damper.
Having either high or low spring rates doesn't necessarily imply it will make your car faster as the ultimate determinant is you, the driver. High spring rates might give you the response you want, but give you less grip. Low spring rates will give your tire better contact (mechanical grip) over a rougher road/track, but feel sluggish, or even bottom out due to vehicle requirements (aerodynamics that require stiffer springs). Maybe the large changes in ride height (compression/rebound of your suspension) due to low spring rates is causing dramatic changes in roll center and CG location that is causing increased roll or unpredictable handling (i.e. you want those as fixed in location as possible which might require a higher spring rate). If you are a chassis engineer and don't know your CG design AND measured (tested) CG height, and roll center position at, for instance, 1G lateral acceleration, then you are wrong. "Twitchy" is relative - I like faster turn in response. I don't want to feel a rolling, sluggish car even if the vehicle's negative camber optimizes tire contact during the roll. Has anyone on here actually data logged real-time IR tire temps during racing to see if the FD's camber gain is optimized? Maybe - I doubt many people have done it. Are you going to tell the difference or optimization of the camber gain on the street - doubt it. Are your tires even hot enough to tell the difference? What tires are you running in the first place? Cheap *** all seasons or Hoosier race tires? What sway bars are you running on your car? Tires are also springs and depend on your tire pressure. It's not just about the physical springs as the sway bar also adds to your corner wheel rate. Howard Coleman likes OEM rubber mounted upper mounts. I can't argue that. He has years of successful racing with that preference. You also can't argue the science of increased compliance and damper hysteresis. How stiff is the chassis torsional stiffness (do you have a half cage, full cage, strut bar)? It may be high, but what is the installed stiffness (i.e. the measured rigidity at the hubs)? Every bit of compliance through suspension mounts, linkages, hub carriers, wheel bearings, and spherical bearings will all decrease your installed stiffness. A 20K damper spring might not matter at all if your chassis (also a spring) is a loosey-goosey wet noodle. What is the total weight of your car? Weight has one of the most significant effects on circuit lap times. Lower weight also equals less tires forces, which also means you are probably decreasing your spring rates. What type of piston (linear, digressive), shim stack, internal valving, or other features are built into your damper? What pressure is your damper's nitrogen set at? What are your roads like? What is your skill level? What are you doing with you car? I could go on and on...
What does all this mean - it's preference. Are you measuring a timed circuit? For most people - probably not. So how do you know you are quicker? Something that might feel quicker might actually be slower and vise versa. There have been many races where in the last few laps my arms were so tired, I felt like I was dragging *** through the track. But, sometimes smoother is faster and they were some of my quickest laps of the race. I used to race open wheel race cars with over $30K worth of Motec gear that data logged hundreds of channels to help determine if the car or the driver needed improved. I was also a design engineer of those chassis' so I'm not just talking out of my *** on here (well... maybe).
I think the 8/6K is on the lower limit for an average build FD. Maybe it's perfectly fine for Howard Coleman because he has a stiff chassis that is lightened to 2200 lbs unlike everyone else's street pig that weighs 2900 lbs. A 14K or higher probably requires some smooth roads. You see Japanese run 18/16K a bunch, but for the most part, Japan actually takes care of their roads and they are silky smooth. Also, consider the fact that many of these setups that are for sale (like you see from RE Amemiya) are driven by their optimization on the track where they actually heat up their DOT-R tires to optimal tempuratures. When's the last time you've seen actual tire graining (melting rubber) from street driving (unless you are doing a burnout)? Any higher of a spring rate, you are probably getting into tracking or is required by aerodynamics devices, but it may not even feel that harsh with a high quality damper. I thought a Tein Flex 10/8K setup was the most terribly, harsh, POS ride ever and it had nothing to do with the springs. I've been in higher spring rate setups that felt like butter. Many people love the Ohlins 11/11K setup, but some people also think the 11/11K is too soft and results in significant roll. Therefore, you can't specifically say there is a consensus that X/X spring rates are the ultimate setup due to so many variables and user preferences. However, all things being considered, long story short... I'd say anything between 10/8K - 12/10K is probably a great place to be for the street, basic setup, and average driver.
What method of temperature compensation is incorporated into the valving for consistent performance like Ohlins Bi-metal system?
I'm not sure exactly what the Ohlin DFV dampers have. I did a little research without finding anything conclusive about the design. Between my engineering degree and practical experience in dampers, it sounds like a gimmick to make their shocks sound better. Looking at pictures of the design and the short descriptions, it sounds like any other valve in the world. It looks like any other steel needle valve. I've never heard of this gimmick in any real race shocks (I'm NOT an expert though -- it very well might exist). Let me know if you find such an insignificant point made in any other shocks though. It's like saying you're going to set your tires to a pressure based them being cold and expecting them to perform when they get hot, despite knowing the pressures will change with the heat. No. You set them to a proper hot pressure when you know the tires are at the temp you are actually using them at. It's the same as putting the petal to the metal on a cold engine and expecting it to perform and last. So in my mind, why wouldn't you set your shock dampening adjustments to a properly warmed up oil? I think the overall difference you'd ever see on the street between "cold" and "warm" damper oil is unnoticeable anyways. Last time I checked, no one can properly gauge their horsepower with their butt dyno. I don't expect the typical street user to notice any difference in damper oil temp.
I like the idea of articulated top hats to stop spring coil binding.
I like how Sake Bomb made an intermediate Ohlin option with their FRSport model. It looks like their base line model with the only real change being the floating top hat like I normally do with the Quantum dampers. It's been 50/50 on if the Quantum models had floating top hats, but I've generally always tried to upgrade them to have them. It's worth the extra cost so kudos to Sake Bomb for making that upgrade without forcing people to order their top-line FRSpec model.
Alright - done with my ranting. I'm open to questions or bull **** flags. Again, I'm no expert and I could very well be wrong about many things.
Im so sorry, I was sure you could point to Quantum literature since its a UK product as a means of answering my questions.
Did not mean to encumber you with all that extemporaneous typing.
I was under the impression RE Amemiya always used Quantum.
Ohlins Road and Track made in Japan coilovers are the low end street spec Ohlins shocks.
Ohlins does have Swedish built race shocks already engineered for at least RX-8 rally spec, I believe, but not many people want to spend $8-10k on coilovers that require more maintenance and pay the engineering development cost if they dont already offer a solution for your chassis.
I have my RX-8 Ohlins Road & Track coilovers off the car that I bought well used and then put my own 60,000 miles and 3 seasons of racing on I could send you for a rebuild and to check out the workings.
Quantum One Zero line is essentially just an updated version of what I typically sell for rebuilt Quantum dampers. Overall design philosophy and design concepts are relatively unchanged. Their downloadable manual has a wealth of information in it.
While I could rebuild any brand out there, I tend not to get into anything other than Quantum for several reasons.
1. I don't stock any parts for anything else. If one person wants a different brand, I have to measure and order every seal, which will lead to more time spent and higher costs for me with minimum order quantities for 1-off rebuilds.
2. I have a pretty large inventory of Quantum parts. In the event something is wrong with someone's damper, I actually have the part to replace it without having to a) order a brand new part from the manufacture which is typically going to be expensive; b) the part might be unavailable in the first place; c) the only place to get it is used by ordering an entirely different set to make 1 good set. I simply don't want to take apart someones damper without confidence I'll be able to rebuild it in case something is wrong with it.
3. I might need to order custom tools to work on a different brand. I have numerous Quantum specific tool that make rebuilding them easier.
4. Quantum has been open and willing to share information with me in all the years I've worked with them.
Quantum Racing One.Zero Coilovers (Group Buy Interest)
