SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

Whether you are a weekend track junky, or competitive racer, this is the brake system for you. We have spent the last six months developing this brake system from the ground up using the finest components available for a truly race-ready braking system, while simultaneously keeping cost in mind. This setup is NOT equivalent to most “BBK’s” out there!

Our goal for this braking system was to shatter the performance limitations offered by most of the current BBK’s on the market, while reigning in the cost associated with stepping up to a true out of the box competition-ready brake kit. We chose to engineer our brake setup around AP racing components based on their continued success in top tier motorsports such as the American Le Mans series, Grand-Am, NASCAR Sprint Cup, NASCAR Nationwide Series, and Formula 1.

We have made custom aluminum rotor hats (that will be hard anodized), caliper brackets and brake lines creating a complete bolt on kit. The caliper we include with the kit is a true motorsports grade caliper (originally a rally caliper). We designed this kit to be used for primarily race use only IE: Competitive racing, track days, time attack and the such.



The AP calipers used in our system allow 20mm thick pads, which not only add additional thermal barrier between the rotor and caliper, but they will also last longer then a standard competition brake pad. Combined with the extraordinarily long-lasting AP J-hook competition rotor, our kit not only offers uncompromised braking performance, but great value and longevity as well. Many other calipers use pads that are 12-17mm’s thick resulting in reduced thermal insulation (more brake fluid boiling), and significantly increased pad replacement intervals (which is for the better as the rotors included in those kits typically are not meant to withstand the long term abuse tolerated by the J-hook rotors without a sweat).

For all of you track guys you know this means less pad changes and a greater thermal barrier between the caliper piston and the disk face.

A few specs on the CP8350 AP calipers we will be utilizing:
- Stainless steel pistons
- Anti-knockback springs
- Forged aluminum caliper construction weighs (AP’s street caliper line uses cast aluminum calipers)
- Light weight (about 4 lbs)
- Common pad shape (readily available pads from various manufactures)
- Calipers can be professionally serviced by Essex Parts Services (Exclusive Importer of AP Racing Motorsports products).

A complete spec sheet and more information on the AP CP8350 calipers can be found in the link below.

Caliper information


The AP 325mm J-hook rotor rings that are supplied with this kit directly come from AP’s motorsports line of iron brake discs. The J-Hook slot pattern is AP’s latest, most aggressive slot pattern available. These discs are similar to the discs being purchased by the top teams in various motorsports categories around the world.

AP Racing's Heavy Duty J Hook Racing Discs are specifically designed to handle race abuse. These are the same discs used on the fastest cars at the elite level of motorsports, including ALMS, NASCAR Sprint Cup & Nationwide, Grand-Am etc. They provide increased cooling, less judder, fewer cracks, and an increased service life vs. competing discs. When you run an AP disc, you can be confident that you're using the best parts available at any price point. -link below to source

“Most aftermarket discs have 30 to 48 vanes. Many times those vanes are straight, or non-directional, with a sub-optimal amount of space between disc faces. After extensive CFD and thermal stress analysis, AP designed the Heavy Duty J-Hook with 70 vanes and a wide 16.5mm air gap to increase airspeed and heat transfer, while reducing deflection and remaining reasonably lightweight.”- Link below to source




“The increased directional vane count on the J Hook Heavy Duty Disc amplifies air speed through the disc, reduces air recirculation between vents, and also increases convective heat transfer and heat distribution. In other words, both air and heat move more quickly and evenly through the disc, creating increased stability under the extreme loads of racetrack use. The disc is less prone to coning, distortion, and cracking, while providing cooler running temperatures, less brake fade, reduced judder, and a longer service life.” - Link below to source



J-Hook Rotor Benefits
-Industry/competition race standard rotors.
- True floating rotor design to allow axial float and radial heat expansion of the disc. A floating rotor also reduces stress and fatigue on the brake hats
-Components in this kit are from AP’s competition product line (these are NOT “street” components)
-50 years of brake engineering experience are in these rotors and calipers.
-AP J Hook discs can be found on 75% or more of the NASCAR Sprint Cup grid, and AP components are supplied to most top teams in Grand-Am, ALMS, BTCC, WTCC, and Super GT.
-AP’s proprietary iron alloy with extreme durability
-AP’s exclusive J Hook design to promote even heat distribution and reducing cracking, as well as increased leading edge surface area for increased initial “bite” compared to standard slotted rotors.
-Longer service life means less time and money spent swapping rotor rings.






Hands down, these rotors are one of the best competition rotors money can buy. This brake package developed by SakeBomb Garage is a complete out-of-the-box competition racing package, with no cost spared on components.

SBG Brake package specifications:
- AP CP8350 Forged Aluminum Caliper
- AP 325x32mm J-Hook Rotors
- Custom hard anodized bells (hats) and mounting bobbins
- Custom caliper mounting bracket and hardware
- DOT approved brake lines
- Installation instructions

For more information on the AP J-hook rotors please read the following link. We used some quotes above directly from the page linked below.

J-hook rotor information

We are making this thread to gauge interest for the initial group buy. For the initial offering we will be discounting this kit significantly. Retail price will be roughly $2850 but we are aiming to initially offer our brake package between $2300-2400! Again this is not the official group buy but merely an interest thread. We still have to do some final track testing before offering this kit publicly. We’re aiming to finalize testing in the next month at which time we will open up the group buy.

-Dan and Heath
SakeBomb Garage

RENESISFD

iTrader: (13)

1. Renesisfd
2.

Brekyrself

iTrader: (30)

Couple questions...

Are the pistons sized for the stock or 99spec rears
Any chance of a matching rear bbk with parking brake?

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

question one relates to question two, and question two I'm not at liberty to answer quite yet

so, shhhh

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

Nice kit. I think a few guys if they're like me.. are looking to spend a lot of money on their cars. But at the same time.. i've pretty much set my cut off at 1800 for a bbk. I just can't justify the cost. Other people are different, not saying the kit is over priced.. just giving my opinion!! Hell of a nice kit though.

- ap

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

We're working on a cheaper street kit for those with a budget (different caliper, different rotor) but the AP kit is a competition oriented track braking kit... low resistance piston seals, anti-knockback springs, 20mm thick pads, 72 vane rotors with some of the most heat resistant metalurgy in the industry, and ridiculously low weight.

This setup is kinda apples and oranges with other BBK's out there... infact, most BBK's out there actually use larger and significantly less sophisticated 332mm diameter (x32mm thick) rotors in an attempt to dissipate additional heat. Our track brake setup uses J-hook rotors that are actually smaller (325mm diameter x32mm thick) than nearly every other "BBK" out there. Lighter (less unsprung weight), more efficient, MUCH higher heat insulation between rotor and caliper with the pads for this kit, significantly reduced pad/rotor replacement costs.

But Manny I very much agree, this is not a cheap kit by any means (though it actually may surpass your needs for brake technology depending on its intended use). This is not a brake kit we are trying to make a sales pitch for, or try to push on people... we're filling a gap that has existed for a long time: A reasonably priced track (not street) oriented brake kit. A similar Endless or Alcon kit will run $4-6K. Retail on this kit will be in the $2800 range, but we're trying to do a first run to kick off the brake kit (assuming we can get enough people on board for a group buy etc) to hit the $2300-2400 range. This is a lot of brake for your money, but yes it's definitely more expensive than the other "BBK's" out there.

With the street kit we're working on, the goal is to hit a $ range BELOW most other "BBK's" while still attaining excellent braking performance for hard core street and non-competition track use (though they should do very well for lapping days etc). For now we can't say much more about the street kit and it's beyond the scope of this thread, but the important distinction here is competition/track vs aggressive street setups. If anyone is unsure which camp they would fall into please don't hesitate to shoot us questions, however the audience that the track kit is aimed for most likely already knows exactly what they are looking at if they are a track junky .

-Heath

BeanieTec

iTrader: (1)

Awesome kit and I'm sure it's going to be top notch if it's coming from the guys at SB Garage. While I think it's price vs. performance factor is huge, it will be a little too much for me when I go to upgrade the brakes.

For this I demand to know what the cat is hiding in the bag!

Keep up the great work, I'm anxiously waiting the street version of this setup.

Mike

Wompa164

iTrader: (4)

Looks great! What about the possibility of an ABS delete hardline kit w/ possible bias adjusting valve?

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

Bridging the gap.... = Rad

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

BRAKE BIAS BRAKE BIAS BRAKE BIAS??????????????????????

OK what size are the pistons?

How do the sizes compare with say the AP 5200 calipers, brembo f14 calipers, st40 calipers etc.... All these calipers have been proven to work well with the the stock ABS system and stock rear calipers.

If the kit has the correct bias I'll take one

The stock ABS system works really well in the FD so I don't see any reason to remove it unless you're building a true race car and the same goes for the 99 rear calipers and rotors. However this could all change with 400 plus rwhp and 335 tires etc....but I'm a low power small tire guy so the rear are just fine. The pads and rotors are cheap etc..... so I have no need for a rear kit.

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

Our piston sizes are comparable to the calipers you've listed. Keep in mind though that brake bias can change drastically based on tire size and type (r-comp, slicks, street tires, etc)... as greater braking forces (higher G's) from stickier tires shifts more weight to the front of the car, less rear brake is needed. Since F/R brake bias is not a static number, there is some amount of "art" to setting the bias characteristics of the system.

Many kits attempt to replicate the stock bias settings from mazda however between 1993 and 2012 tire technology has drastically improved and we felt it was time time to revisit the bias figures for the FD based on modern tires. Same goes for lateral g's (cornering forces) that modern tires are able to generate... the stock wheel bearings were never intended for the increased lateral loads which can be reached with new tires. Bearing flex causes the rotors to be pressed against the pad during cornering, causing pad knockback and requiring "pre-braking" to push the pistons back into place before being able to properly engage the brakes... which is why we insisted on anti-knockback springs in our current track calipers.

Obviously a bias valve would let a driver dial in the optimal brake setting based on their tire type, pad choice, etc but the rear kit we are working on aims to address that issue without the installation of a bias valve. That said, no static bias (piston bore, etc) will be optimal for more than one car, but our aim is to get damn close with our rear kit.

Bias can be altered with: Front piston bore, front rotor diameter (leverage), rear brake bore, rear rotor diameter (leverage), front to rear pad mu offset, bias/proportioning valve, and tire type and size.

There are lots of variables that we are currently trying to dial in or eliminate without getting into the proportioning valve side since the goal is a free standing brake kit out of the box, but we've got some testing/proving left to do before it's finalized to our standards. But rest assured we're doing all we can to optimize maximum braking force with modern day tires.

One last note that is a pet peeve of mine and I have to disagree the stock ABS system is horrendous! It's slow, sloppy, intrusive, and leaves much braking force on the table. When it was built tire technology was vastly different than what it was today... we can generate much higher braking torque without locking up the wheels with today's tires... there's just way more grip! Problem is when the ABS maps were set for a street tires back in 1993-1995 they were built with safety (not razor edge performance) in mind, as well as lower torque tires. As the tires on our cars get better, the ABS becomes sloppier and more intrusive. It's also slow as molasses (8 bit). In 2001-2002 Mazda added 16 bit processing, faster ABS piston reaction time, and electronic brake distribution! It was also mapped for newer tires and the higher torque 314mm sport brakes available for those years. From everyone I've talked to in Japan with the new system, it's night and day compared to our gen 1 or gen 2 ABS units... they're less intrusive at the limit, faster reacting with more pluses per second, faster (and more accurate calculations) and the EBD has be ability to move brake pressure from wheels that are locking to wheels with traction to let you trail brake to some extent and max out your braking system. The old system is by no means good, but I'm a huge proponent of ABS and think it's a good idea even for track cars... humans just cant react as fast as an ABS system. Anyway the newer systems are a big upgrade if you can source and retrofit one

Ok I better duck out before Dan kills me.... he gets mad when I go off on long tangents with too much info (which I've obviously done once again)

-Heath

SpAm@FC

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Flyweight

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Any idea on the release of the rear wheel version?

I assume that these calipers will fit 17s...

Any idea on pricing for the front and rear kit?

Parking brake for rear kit?

Thanks,

Andrew

Blackadde///

iTrader: (27)

I've been planning on running their 6-pot fronts, but I'm definitely interested in these depending on release date. If a 4-pot rear with parking brake is in the works, I'm in.

1. Renesisfd
2.SpAm@FC
3. Blackadde///

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

rear will not be 4 pot.

GoodfellaFD3S

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Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Hi Heath,
Thanks for all the info regarding ABS, knock back etc....

NOW if you would please answer this one very important question WHAT SIZE ARE THE PISTONS both leading and trailing?

What's your track experience and the track experience of the other members involved with making this kit?

There's been attempts to make BBKs for this car by people who never even tracked the setup and it proved to be a huge FAIL.

People running avg advanced level lap times won't know the difference between a good setup or bad setup so it's very important that you have close to or professional level drivers testing the kit driving on race rubber.

THANKS!

RotorMotor

iTrader: (5)

Fritz,
I will do our best to answer your questions without giving up too much proprietary information too early. I thought it was a little obtuse to ask "whats your track experience, and give me a list of everyone you are working with for development" though Anyway, if you'd like to be involved with testing your input would definitely be appreciated, but that's something to talk about over PM... please feel free to message us

If you're on slicks trying to max out stopping power you should have a dual master cylinder setup to get perfect brake distribution front to rear as tire type, size, and temp will affect max front weight transfer and hence optimal bias. With a stock MC and stock ABS, a linear proportioning valve would similarly let you fine tune front to rear bias.

Sine tire friction affects maximum generated braking force, and increased braking force shifts more weight to the front wheels (and away from the rear), front grip directly affects optimal rear bias... therefore no static bias will ever give you perfect distribution, doesn't matter how well engineered the brakes are, period. The best we can do for static bias is get as close as possible for a range of variables without the use of a prop valve/dual MC + balance bar etc.



Regarding Piston bore size: Knowing the piston bore sizes is great, but you obviously know that bias calculations factor in many more variables than piston diameter such as disc diameter, disc anulus, swept pad area... let alone pad compound or rear brake specs.

Here are the calipers that you listed previously that have been "proven" to work with stock rears. As you can see there's a wide range.



Stoptech ST40 - 30/36mm bores (unofficial) w/ 332x32mm discs (Stoptech does not give their bore specs officially either because they make 2 kits, one for the US Spec, and one for 99 spec rears).
AP CP5200 - 38.1/41.3mm bore disc size: 332x32mm
Brembo – Brembo does not officially release their piston bore dimensions . The kit does use a 332 x 32 disc however.

Without getting into specific numbers, our current piston bore is roughly 40mm average with roughly 3mm offset between trailing and leading. Factor in our 325 mm disc size and that should give you a general idea of where we come in at with stock rear brakes…but as I said before there are many other variables such as rotor annulus, overall disc diameter, and pad swept area that directly affect bias.... let alone getting into tire size/brand/compound, friction material, and rears brakes (all else equal). Also the stock US Spec rears do leave some braking potential on the table both in terms of performance but also modulation/feel. Wedding yourself to the stock rears could potentially limit the maximum performance of your brakes.

Our goal with this setup was/is both to maximize braking performance (both in terms of stopping power and heat resistance) while reducing weight. The 72 vane 325mm j hook AP disc is lighter, smaller, and more efficient at bleeding off heat than the larger 332mm rotors with less efficient vane design that you listed. AP has also done extensive work in the metallurgy department for their rotors which can withstand extensive temperature ranges far beyond that of most rotor manufacturers.

-Heath

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

We're still working on the rear setup so I can't comment on a date yet but we're aiming to turn our design around into a full production version in the next two months. Yes the rear will have a normal parking brake as it is based around the stock caliper body. We can't comment on pricing for the rear yet.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Sorry for my OBTUSE questions

Sounds like the 5200 kit in terms of rotor and piston size which is a good kit.

I'll shoot you a PM.

Miata_mx5

The actual AP Kit for the FD is a 6 piston CP5570 caliper that uses about the same rotor sizes. This kit has pads that are 20 mm thick with a taller annulus disk compared to the other stuff out there.

The AP street kit costs about $4200.00 Retail.

$2850 is an unbelievable bargain for what you get with this kit and it's specifications.

LoU "hOw Ya Do"

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Brekyrself

iTrader: (30)

Sorry for the newb question as I'll be looking for a bbk after this track season but are there any technical articles available on why xy calipers/rotors are better then the rest? Every company states rotor material and caliper stiffness however any scientific or third party testing actually available?

I notice off the bat, these will have 20mm thick pads which is great but does it really set them apart from say a bbk from Racing Brake with their standard wrx sized pads?

I can't wait to hear the technical details on this setup. IE are they sizing the pistons for 1.2-1.5g stops for us using r comps and slicks?

SakeBomb Garage

iTrader: (17)

Nothing wrong with those questions.

To answer your questions directly & simply: There is no official 3rd party that tests all racing brake calipers, rotor and friction material that are used for pure competition use. As far as how stiff these calipers are, and what kind of exact abuse they can take, AP Racing will not reveal to the public their proprietary testing done on these calipers.

This is similar to tire manufacturers as well. A 245 Falken is not the same size as a 245 Dunlop or Yokohama. You can stack them side by side to see that.

So, how does one decide what brake equipment is best for their race use when reliability, life and best performance is key when clicking off hot laps? The best indication is to look at all the racing series where brakes are open equipment and teams can buy whatever they want without being forced to run a "spec" setup and sponsorship is not a priority (because free and cheap **** is still **** and does not help win races). Basically, look at what teams choose to buy when it counts the most.

In the USA, the race series that is hardest on brakes is NASCAR Sprint Cup/Nationwide series. More specifically, short tracks and road courses. If you go to any NASCAR Short Track or Road Course (Examples: Martinsville, Loudon, Watkins Glen, Montreal, Sonoma), you will find all the top teams are running AP Racing Competition brake equipment and Heavy Duty J-Hook rotors. These teams are constantly looking for the best, consistent performance and if they can get the best without spending an arm & a leg they will do it. AP racing is always a top choice for these teams.

3600 lbs, 330 mm overall diameter rotors, 15 inch wheels, no downforce and 800 horsepower make for some pretty treacherous brake temperatures. NASCAR teams sometimes need to have gold tape on the inner barrels of wheels just to keep the tires from un-beading at the high temperatures they see.

How many championships does AP Racing have under it's belt?

AP Racing have been equipping vehicles in all divisions of American Stock Car Racing from Nascar Sprint Cup to Trucks and Late Model Racing Series all over the America.

AP Racing provide the solution to all braking requirements from Super-speedways to Short tracks. The past 12 seasons has seen AP Racing equipping many championship winning cars. Building on these successes, AP Racing continue to develop new caliper, pedal boxes, rotor and clutch ranges for the extensive stock car market.

Just for ***** & giggles, lets look at Formula 1. AP Racing's outstanding record in F1 - 686 Grand Prix wins starting at the Dutch GP in 1967 have been won with cars that used the British company's brakes, clutches, or both. Over that period, engine power outputs have nearly doubled but our clutches have reduced in size and weight by a remarkable 113mm and 3.3kg. With over 228 brake winners AP Racing shows the way.

AP Racing equipment is also found consistently on winning cars that are running at long distance races in the USA as well (12 hours of Sebring, 24 hours of Daytona). Sebring is a track that is pretty hard on brakes, more so than Daytona or Circuit De La Sarthe (Le-Mans).

How many championships at the top level of racing does Racing Brake have under their belt? We would be interested to know.

All of the brake equipment (calipers, disks, bobbins) used in our kit comes directly from the AP Racing motorsports line through their motorsports distributors so you can rest assured that you are getting the most bulletproof, iron-clad brake system at ANY price point for your FD. These AP J Hook disks use similar iron metallurgy, and post manufacturing processing similar to the top NASCAR and GT Car disks.

But, the kits are not unreasonably priced at $2850 MSRP (GB pricing will be different and even better).

Combine this with reasonable replacement disc costs, overhauling and service options in the USA (Done by Essex Parts Services), Inexpensive 20 mm pads, you have a pretty unbeatable package.

Now, 1.2 to 1.5 G stops come from a variety of things. The primary job of the calipers and brake discs is to hold heat and do that reliably for as long as possible. Yes, they do create mechanical torque, but there are other factors that make the "brakes effective". This boils down to tires and what friction material you choose to run. AP has sized the brakes for us to be the most optimal for the Rx7 FD.

We are testing different friction materials at this moment, and we will reveal what brake pads we plan to offer that give the best overall performance (rotor wear, pad wear, overall stopping power and modulation).

Flyweight

iTrader: (1)

Put me on the list of those who are interested in the group buy.