setzep

You are WRONG! ........ it's "mad quick yo"....jesus don't you know anything!

RICE RACING

I have a lot to learn

sinfestboy

Rice Racing: When ONLY looking at numbers, hp is all that matters. when looking at the real world, be it track, dragstrip or daily driver, TORQUE matters just as much as hp. Torque is alot like displacement, it is the potential for power. then for torque there are gear ratios to adjust, while for displacement, there is boost (for example) to adjust.
Torque is potential for power. HP is power.

and as for torque not mattering, as soon as you show me a car with twice the hp as torque that doesnt have an S2000 like power curve, I will concede. but for now, remember that torque is potential, HP is that potential unleashed.

RICE RACING

I am wasting my time with people like you, can you not understand what I have talked about ?

I suggest you go back over it again !

RICE RACING

sinfestboy, I will tell you how silly your statements are !

When you go to pick your ultimate shift points from gear to gear, you analyse what your best average power is over that gear ratio to your shift point.

POWER is what accelerates vehicles, TALK is what people use as an excuse for a lack of power !

If TALK was so important then we would change gears or keep our engines around our peak torque area for maximum acceleration. GO TRY IT ! THEN COME AND TALK TO ME.....

I will save you the time and effort, you will ALWAYS go faster when you have highest average power over any gear ratio. The torque is not an issue, as it is but one component as I have said all along, It is the final result (POWER) that is important here, always has been, always will be.

It is very amusing to see how many people have difficulty with these concepts, even so called experts who make a living from just engine work look like complete morons when discussing this subject.

POWER is the unit of measure that is important, and to be more precise the SPREAD OF POWER available over your gear ratios will determine how fast your car will be, the TORQUE (talk) is just that

RICE RACING

My favourite saying....

old school V8 = all torque no action !

13B peripheral port = no torque all action !

If you want to tow boats, do the school bus run, plough paddocks, then yeah you need low down power i.e. "lots of talk"

If you want to race and have a car that weighs less than your mother inlaw, then you need an engine that makes good mid/top range torque with very high power.

"power is important for people who want to achieve things, torque is important to people who want to talk about achieving things"

RICE RACING

They are not the same data, this is what is the problem......people regard torque the same or more importantly than the power ! THIS IS WRONG.


Torque is of no value without knowing the rpm it is made at, the reason power is IMPORTANT is becuse it quantifies torque into something that has some meaning.

The formula shows how important the relationship is, and that Torque without power is plain useless when it comes to doing things.

RICE RACING

Torque is but ONE component you need to get FULL data i.e. POWER

The other component is rpm, because torque varies so much depending on rpm, especially when tested on a chassis dyno (as the rear wheels can be turning at MANY different speeds depending on gearing) this is why power is important as it allows comparisons to be made regardless of rear wheel speed or engine speed.

This is why POWER is the unit of measure when you are wanting to know how much acceleration or work can be done by a particular vehicle, and it allows direct comparisons to be made between vehicles...it is very easy when you think about it?

Simple things like power to weight ratios and the average power over available gear ratios and the aerodynamics/weight of a vehicle will allow infinate analysis to be carried out on the performance of that particular car.....The torque is pointless once you know the power, as this is the measurement you need to do this analysis.

sinfestboy

RICE RACING, SHUT UP, OR PUT IT ALL IN ONE POST. YOU ARE A MORON.
if torque didnt matter at all, then you go ahead and make a USABLE* car with less than 100 lb/ft that can beat a stock TII

* Usable for anything, Drag Racing, Circuit, Drift, or Street.

RICE RACING

Go back to school dumb *** !

Read and learn, then come talk to me You can TALK all you want, without power you are just that, ALL TALK.

Jsquared

power and torque are both important, and JUST AS IMPORTANT is the area under the curve and the width of the powerband. Audi turbo engines are a good example of this. they make similar numbers of HP & torque, and the powerbands are HUGE, as well as having a lot of area under the torque curve. then look at a pushrod big block. lots of low down torque, but the redline is usually very low, causing a limited powerband. same thing but inverted with the S2000. not very much low-end torqu at all, but the engine revs really high, thus making lots of high-end power. generally speaking, the best compromise is usually somewhere in between, decent torque curve but also a medium range (~7k usually) redline.

and the formula, as previously stated, is HP = torque * rpm /5252. to get a good picture of any engine, however, you need to see the power and torque curves plotted together (ENGINE GRAPH)...

Jsquared

^^ just in case you want my info validated, i am a mechanical engineering student that is involved part-time with our Formula SAE team and have observed the senior and grad students tuning our formula car's engine on an engine dyno

RICE RACING

I will tell you guys how stupid your arguments are becoming.

I can put out 800 ft/lb of torque, do I have enough power to get a car moving of the line with my arm? NO !!!!

Argument is over, Show me power and I will show you work.

Power, spread of power, average power, from idle through to maximum engine rpm is what is important, torque is not important at all. POWER is important.

Again, give me a long enough bar and I will pump out 9000 ft/lb of torque. NO PROBLEM, but I cannot do any reasonable work i.e. accelerate a 2500lb car!

YOU NEED POWER TO DO THIS, How f*#$% hard is this to understand ?

RICE RACING

If you have enough power to get of the line from little over idle revs as you let out the clutch then this is more than usable if this is what your intend purpose for the car is !

If you need more power to pull a boat up a hill at 2000rpm then this is fine as well.

If you need power to pull 8000rpm in top gear to achieve over 200mph with gearing that will let you get of the line then this is great if this is your intended purpose for that car.

For ALL of these things you need power in the right places to do these things, for ALL you torque facinated people guess what? If you use the correct formula you can figure out the power you are making If you know the engine rpm (oh what a suprise!)

For chassis dyno people (majority) it is FAR more important to know the power you are making, I wonder why??? MAYBE I EXPLAINED IT IN MY LAST 100 POSTS !

POWER is the unit of measure that when combined with other variables will let you figure out how much potential your vehicle has to perform.

Engineers or even lay people simply confuse the issue by saying an engine has a "lot of TORQUE" The correct way to describe it is to say that the engine has a lot of low down power or mid range power or top end power or any combination, to say it has a lot of torque shows there ignorance of the topic.

For the 100th time! Torque on it's own does nothing, never has never will, torque when combined with RPM produces POWER, with POWER you can do work

RICE RACING

Torque when plotted on an engine dyno graph is realy usefull for Mechanical Engineers to see trends in the Volumetric efficiency of an engine and Also little things like the inverse of the torque curve tends to reflect the BSFC curve (point of highest torque=lowest BSFC).

Aside from these things for people in the "real" world power is what is important, the simple facts are that if you do not have the power for your situation (driving condition) then you will not have the performance you want.

It is a simple matter of picking what is important to you ?

Every thing you buy from electric/mechanical vacume cleaners, drills, juicers to lawn mowers through to cars through to haulage trucks is rated buy the power it produces, this is how we know how good it realy is.

BlackDragon

= Power under the curve

Didn't I already mention this in my post? I forget...anyway, yes Rice Racing is right in most if not all of his posts. It can be proven through physics.

This is not entirely true Rice Racing and you know it. An engine CAN have a lot of torque (we know this because torque can be measure), but chances are it will all be in the low end. This is due to having a crankshaft with a longer stroke, because it acts as a longer long lever arm. Now an engine like this WILL have high torque. But, because it is all in the low end, it will not necessarily mean it makes LOTS of power, which is what Rice Racing is trying to say. Then engine then uses the power produced in the cylinders (or similer compartment) to turn something. This is measured as torque. This engine can THEN be described as having "a lot of low end power."

NOW! One point that DOES mean a lot with "High Torque Engines" (referring to engines with lots of low end power) is that the car will get off the line quicker. This is a HUGE advantage in drag racing since the longer it takes to get to your peak power, or atleast the area in which you're making good power, the slower you are going to be accelerating the car. This is the advantage muscle cars have in Drag Racing. They only have to rev a few thousand RPMs (if that) to get to their peak HP. Whereas short stroking engines typically have to reach 5k or so before they're making good power.

Now to answer the challenge put forth by sinfestboy.

Now your problem would easily be solved so long as the engines rpms could be revved into VERY high ranges. So lets say for example that you've got an extremely well balanced engine that has no problem running around 15k rpms. Well If this were the case look at the formula.

(15000rpm*100ft/lbs) /5252 = 285.6HP

Well by God I think we've done it. With 285hp my guess is that it would beat a stock T2. There are obviously several problems you have to overcome when looking at a engine that runs that high, such as gearing, friction, inputing the necessary amount of fuel in such a short time period ETC. But I've heard Indy cars run up to like 12k RPM so we're atleast close. What I'm trying to show here is that yes, your car with less than 100ft/lbs of torque would have great horsepower potential and assuming that it was at 15k rpms driving next to a stock T2 on the freeway, it would smoke it once they both floored it. Alright? Understand what I'm saying.

Now to point out how this extreme example also show the disadvantages of drag racing cars that require high RPMS to make their power. The same car that has the 15k rpm engine would take quite awhile to reach that "sweet spot" whereas the T2 would reach its 5k rpm sweet spot much quicker. WHEREAS a big block V8 reaches it's sweet spot EVEN QUICKER! (say 2000rpms). So do you all understand my point then? I'm totally not dissing on 7's or short stroking engines. I hate big blocks for MANY reasons and I plan on showing them just WTF IS UP once I get my T2 running quick times. Thanks for listening

No flames please

RICE RACING

Nice explination.

Last night when I was at the drags, It was funny seeing a 2ng gen Rx7 do a flat 10sec pass with a 1.5 sec 60ft time with a 8"wide slick and a 3 speed auto !

Heavy car, not that much grip (for drag car) and no where near the low down torque of a V8 power car. But at the end of the day it when compared to cars of similar weight (capri V8 powered) did the same 60ft time but with much higher mph 133 v's 117 and time of 10.0sec Vs high 11s...

Point is POWER is what matters, you simply need to find a way to use it, for drags auto with high stall is a good solution......now, what is the point of ALL that low down TALK ?????

BlackDragon

Hehehe, I agree, there are ways to get around the lack of low down power. One of the advantages that I like in the T2 is that my friend in his GTO has to feather the throttle (since he can't run slicks on the streets) whereas the T2 can start low and build to its power without worrying about spinning the tires through all the gears

SPOautos

You can overcome the high rpm power problem off the line by launching the car at a high rpm. Most rx7 guys launch between 3K - 5K rpms so they are in a range of good power.

Low end torque doesnt do much besides snap your neck. 500tq * 2000rpms / 5252 only = 190hp. I'd rather have a car that made only 300tq * 5000rpms / 5252 = 285hp then launch the car at 5000rpms. In the first example that 500tq will snap your neck in half but your not going to be accelerating fast because its a low frequency of torque. You have to have a high frequency of torque to be fast.

I'd rather have my torque up high for 2 reasons, it creates much more hp which creates acceleration and its easier for a car with high rpm hp like rx7's to be streetable. To overcome the no low end power problem you just need to launch in your powerband.

just my .02

Later,
STEPHEN

BlackDragon

Trudat. However, you can only launch in your RPM power range if you car is geared right for it. Because if your gears say that at 5000 engine RPMS your tires should be spinning at a speed that = 60mph. You've got some problems. Because your tires won't want to start spinning that fast from a dead stop. So thats the part where I mentioned

Overall it was a well spent two cents though

SPOautos

Yea, that is true....especially in your 15000rpms example lol but for a normal car that redlines 1st gear around 35mph and 5000rpms is only around 20mph its no problem. Id say for most cars taching it up off the line wont present any problems like that. Now if you had a car that hit 60mph in 1st you might have a problem, seems like the viper has a real high 1st gear top speed like 60 or 65mph, they prob have a hard time launching at high rpms but thier gearing is matched for thier power band as is most cars.

Good point of view though

Later,
STEPHEN

BlackDragon

Yep, I agree. Anyone here with an 89 TII wanna let me know what RPM they launch at and what their setup is that allows them to do this. I know this should be a different thread, but it sorta relates to the torque thing and launching at higher RPMs. And I'm too lazy to search

Node

iTrader: (1)

great saying, and now I understand what your location means

BogusFile

What gets me is how ignorant alot of people are about V8s. I have seen N/A small block chevys that rev out to 10K RPM. Did any of you know that a stock chevy 350's bottom end can handle 6-7k RPM without any problems what so ever? Its all in the cam heads intake and carb...... if you look through any summit or Jegs you will see that they sell cams with max hp anywhere between 4000rpm to 8500rpm. The cam is the brain, and the heads intake and exhaust are the aerobic part of the motor. There are old school V8's that make power well past 6k rpm........All torque no action my ***!