Whizbang

i guess this is most suitable plpace for this


i read a bunch of articles on the hydrogen powered vechiles, especially rotary logic based ones. So for my mechanical engineering major project i decided to convert my N/A 13b into a hyrdogen car. Now this is going to be staight hydrogen/oxygen no gas or electric side motor.

1. one reason i think i can get this to work is i dont have to give a rats *** about emissions. NO (sub x) is a big concern for auto makers
2. the school's resources are good
3. school will partially fund a few random things
4. options become fuel injected version compared to carbed version.

Now here is what i got roughed out. The stock fuel injector can be used for experimental purposes. Ill take them apart and rebuild them but the basic control will be the same. The hydrogen and oxygen will be properly mixed prior to the injection. This is relativly simple as two hydrogen atoms to one oxygen atom is the best choice for now. The oil system is the trick. The emissions from the car will be comtainated with the burnt petrol products mixing with the H2O exhaust gas. But again, emissions is the deal for this one. Also, i can achieve greater power by putting as much H and O in there as dense as i can. Meaning increasing pressure should increase power. So, a supercharger might be able to compress the charge effecitivly. Proably from some buick junker or similiar.

if i go carbed the gas mixture would be very easy to do. The gas will jet into the carb in a closed system. (no air filter needed)
he FI version might be better in the end. Ill have to look into it more.

Some benefiets could be greater reliebility of the motor. The water vapor that will be in the engine will clean it constantly. Meaning no carbon build up from the burnt oil.

Again the lub system is the problem and any idea for a solution would be great.

Any insight or suggestions? I need some brainstorming!

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

Sounds interesting.

Whizbang

also if i can refine the exhaust gas i can run a electrolysis system and make some fuel for it as if runs. It the exhaust cant be used, ill just have a distilled water tank or something. If i have like ten plates running high voltage from the or a alternator, i think can make a good deal of fuel.

Valkyrie

Hehe, just make it inject water and have the spark plugs break the fuel and air apart... as if.

Although a similar system would technically be possible... I think...

I think you would need to definately get a stand-alone since the fuel-air ratios will be totally different from a piston engine. Hmm, but then again, I guess gasoline is more explosive than hydrogen, so it's not like you could destroy the rotor casings or something.

Synthetic oils, maybe? I think the fouling due to synthetic oils would be far less noticible since there is no petrol fuel being burned, and since the water in the engine is already constantly cleaning it.

A little synthetic oil mixed in the exhaust water probably wouldn't mean that you can't re-use the water to create more hydrogen fuel. Hell, you might even be able to reuse the oil...

RXSETH

What school do you go to? I was thinking about doing something along similar lines, but on my own. I don't think you would be able to use the stock fuel system because it is meant to fire gas through and not hydrogen/oxygen. The stock computer would probably not be able to inject enough. Also both oxygen and hydrgoen will be gases and not liquids. If you built some type of custom injection system for it, I think you could make it work. You would need some type of microcontroller to take readings from various sensors to control the injection and the timing of the vehicle. Plus you are going to have to know how to program it. I heard Mazda had a turbo/hydrogen rotary at the Detroit Auto Show last year, but did not get a chance to make it there to see it. I go to school at Kettering University (Formerly GMI-General Motors Institute) in Flint, MI. I would be interested in helping you if you are close by. I live in Youngstown, OH when I am not in school.

Whizbang

i live in cleveland which is close enough! i go to CSU

jhammons01

How are you going to handle the fuel tank issue?? The articles I read as well as the current industry standard is.......
You have to have a tank that is three times as large as your gas tank and t has to be a double jacket tank. Vacuum in the middle for insulating purposes. So, the tank has to be a pressure vessal with a vacuum vessal surounding it. You need a 5 micron vacuum pump to periodically vacuum the "jacket" portion. This is not new tech and most universities have multiple vaccum pumps around.
I just want to know how you are going to fit the tank in.

I also am curious as to the injection situation. You can't S/C the system when you are injecting can you?? I mean the detonation and backfireing issue was solved via injecters being placed in different locations to avoid those problems. Besides, Rotory's only lose a small percentage of horsepower with the H2. Would you really need to S/C??

The Oil! you should look at the machinist oil over on the CNC machine. It mixes with water. I am not sure if it would burn, I can't think of a reason it would not. BUT you could inject it in small amounts and it could be recaptured in a recepticle located in the exhaust and be re-injected!!! Wow the ideas are flowing here. I need just a small royalty!

I love your idea I would like to see how you handle these situations. THEN!!!! THEN I could figure out how to produce my own H2 here at the Domicile and follow your lead. Who knows I could be the next Rockafeller with "Standard Hydrogen Inc." Then the Valdeez could crash into the statue of liberty and burst into flames......Oh the humanity I am speachless!
Fast forward

nevarmore

I'm going to Kent State and living out in Cuy Falls. If you need help with this project contact me or the guys over at OhioRotaries.com, pretty pretty please. Even if I'm just a pit bitch, this sounds like a really cool build. IM: Bartels83, Y!:fiveonethree email:jbartels@kent.edu

As for technical info, you may want to explore the propane conversions that are becoming more common, especially in the offroad community. Mazda may have also published or sponsored some research that you could get your hands on for thier hydrogen powered RX-8.

RXSETH

Did you just buy a second generation RX-7 off of someone on the forum about a month ago? It was a red auto. That kid went to CSU too. I was with the kid who sold the car to the kid who went to CSU. Another thing is I think you would have trouble with trying to run a turbo because of water droplts hitting the turbine wheel. I don't think most universities are going to throw money into running hydrogen through a combustion engine. We have several brand new labs for fuel cells and its all about creating eletric power, not combustion. They just put in a 50 milllion dollar building that has tons of fuel cell equipment. As for the tank, you are going to have to run something crazy like that. Or else you might end up being another Hindenberg. I don't see why a typical vessel (ones used for co2,argo, oxygen, acetylene, etc.) can't be used. I'm sure its some kind of safety issue, but I see trucks carrying them around for delievery.

Valkyrie

A tank full of compressed hydrogen (talk about a time-bomb...) could be used with a siphon system (the opposite of the anti-siphon system that paintball guns use) to inject liquifed hydrogen into the combustion chamber, where it would turn into gas (just like liquid gasoline is atomized when it's sprayed) before being compressed and ignitied.

But a safer way would probably be to store water in the gas tank, and have the water electrolysized in the car, but then you'd need a badass power supply in the car...

nevarmore

It would be important to know about the goals of the project. To make an efficient hyrogen vehicle or a running hydrogen vehicle. As I recall electrolysis of water to split hydrogen and oxygen from water takes more energy than the final result can create.

Also, if I recall correctly*, you could use hydrogen peroxide as the fuel because it seperates readily. I know the drugstore stuff won't because its cut down too far, but rockets have been fueled with hydrogen peroxide.

*I wish I knew for sure, I hit my head alot and forget stuff. If I'm wrong correct me. Learning is fun and knowledge is power.

Valkyrie

Yes, but it's incredibly dangerous to handle hydrogen peroxide that's strong enough to fuel a rocket engine, which is why they had to be incredibly careful when refueling Komet rocket planes during WWII.

It will eat through anything organic, just like the drug store stuff kills bacteria.

Whizbang

well i for one would like to aviod "organic decomposion" from handling the fuel.

my primary goal is to get it to simply run on a motor stand. I can use tanked hydrogen for the fuel to just get it to run. I am looking into the option of having the standard air intake provide the O2, but there are two concerns

1) NO (as in Nitrogen oxide) gas will result from the nitrogen in the air coming in.
2) Nitrogen and other gases other than O2 might cause a power loss because of the hydrogen's reactions with them.
3) Could no longer use the exhaust water for refuel.

The turbo is a definite no go because the water would destory it.

The purpose of the S/C would be to comdense the H2 and O2 charge coming into the motor inorder to get as much power as possible. (i like power! ) It would then be after a carb modifed to jet H2 so that both the O2 and H2 are compressed evenly. This is also an experimental side idea so the first round i might not include it.

I am in no way using to fuel cell technology to DIRECTLY run this motor. No electric motors at all. But i am going to use the electrolysis idea later on. If the motor runs good, then i will create a system to make it a bit more self sufficent and drivable. (My goal is have it back in an RX7!) I could have a tank for distilled water that is pumped into an electrolysis assembly. (as many of the membrane plates as possible..) which could run into two seperate tanks (one H2 and one O2). This might be able to run with a house hold extension cord when the car is off so fuel can be made while inert. Then while the car is running a power source can run it off the motor. If the the electroysis is dependant upon voltage, then it would be easy to have an alternator line to the box with voltage step ups along the way to increase the voltage to what ever needed. Ill have to look into the effect that amps play in electrolysis.



The tanked O2 is a bit scary as it and H2 would not be the best thing to have in your hatch when you get rear end. Pinto anyone? so that is the reason for the air intake method.

That is all i can think of for now. Time for more internet research!!!!!

Whizbang

i like the liquid hydrogen idea, but paintball guns use nitrogen or CO2. If i remember, hydrogen would not really get into a liquid form. And i know Liquid nitrogen can freeze metal to the point where it can shatter.

RXSETH

Hydrogen can be in liquid form if compressed enough. The problem is hydrogen's liquid temperature is -423 degress farenheit and I would imagine that once you start letting some of that liquid flow from the tank it will start to become gaseous. I'm not saying it can't be injected, but I don't think it can be injected with a stock fuel injector. You could try doing it with some sort of solenoid valve that could be pulsated on and off as needed. Hydrogen takes up a lot more space than gasoline because it is less dense, which is going to make you have to have a huge fuel tank. Why are you injecting oxygen? Air is going to give you your oxygen. Even if you did try to inject oxygen, you would have to block off any other air going into the motor or else the air is going to mix with your pure oxygen. What class status are you at school? (fresh,soph,junior,senior) When does this have to be done by? This is going to be a costly project with a lot of research and experimentation to make it work.

Whizbang

as of now freshman but i have another two years from another school. So i have four years to do this. Plus, i have connections! and i have no life! single, you know. plus i am going to custom make a 4 rotor too. Seeing i might make two run offs it might be really fun to combine the hyrdrogen project with 4 rotor..

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Um, no. There's no such thing as perpetual motion. It will take more energy to crack water then you get out of it by recombining.

Hydrogen is used every day as an industrial gas. There are virtually no accidents. As a closed system, it is infinitly safer then gasoline. Hydrogen also dissipates so quickly that even leaks aren't much of a danger. Stop spreading FUD.

Whizbang

i was thinking more of a way to reduce the total amount of outside fuel being consumed. But odds are it wont produce enough to bother with it.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

But you will still use more energy to "create" that fuel then you will gain by using it. So net result is wasted energy.

Whizbang

my other thought was have the system be powered by the alternator OR an outside source like house electrical. If oyur at your feinds just plug in your car and add water. You might be able to fill the car up over night if there is enough electroysis occuring.

RXSETH

There is no point in powering the electrolysis system with the alternator because you are wasting energy. You can't get out more out than what you put in. Fundamental laws of science prove it. You should concentrate on even getting it to run with hydrogen first. I would try to use some sort of solenoid valve with a jet on the end to inject the hydrogen. Aaron might have some good ideas on a control system for it considering he is an EE (I am told by someone else on the forum.)

Whizbang

i think modifiying a carb wou;ld be the cheapest and easyiesy because it is alreasdy jetting a substance

nevarmore

Could you post what resources you are already using?? The idea intruiges me, and I'll see what I can scrounge up for ya, but I don't want to cover things twice.

I think I was able to salvage the links after my last system crash on propane injection. The conversion to that should be fairly similar to your idea of using hydrogen with outside air and I would even wager that the propane carburetion system would work straight out of the box.

jhammons01

The below link gives a lot of good info on this process. it even points out how Mazda already converted a motor. Mazda had to relocate the "injectors" and had normally aspirated O2 coming in.

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/p.../hydrogen.html

Don't reinvent the wheel, just re-trace the steps of the Engineers that came before you. They ran out of gas at a certain point. Maybe if start at their ending point you can make it a bit further before you run out of H2 er...ah Gas.

Aarron is right about the Hydrogen. I was kidding about the Statue of Liberty blowing up. Hydrogen is a safe gas.

I have a B.S. Physics but my expertise is in Vacuum, HV and Ultra HV. An M.E. would be good at this sort of thing. But I am intrigued by this subject. It would be nice to see Millions of cars here in L.A. spewing water vapor instead of noxious........but I would also hate to give up the speED!!!!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Plugging in would be cool. If you could compress the hydrogen without wasting too much energy. But I think the return would be minimal...Or, think of it this way. If you are going to plug in the car, why waste all the energy it takes to create, filter and compress hydrogen when you can just charge onboard batteries and drive the wheels with an electric motor.

Just to clear things up, I am not actually an EE as another poster thought. Just a long time (now retired) electronics hobbiest.