I appreciate your real world billet engine experience too.

Think what you will; even inaccurately so, but funny how the thread turned around to get back on track. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. Everybody loves a dumpster fire.
.

 

Yet of everyone who has commented, you’ve added the least useful posts, always managing to make a shitty remark every time. I really don’t understand what your game is but we are all sick of it

 

so is there anyone making a billet rear plate that would just bolt up to the Tremec or Nissan transmissions?
i was going to say if you can get the automatic style rear that is its use case, as that one is NLA from Mazda, but if you can make the housing, make it for the Tremec/Nissan specifically.

its not my idea either, Mazda has a 3 rotor irons in the catalog which bolt to the transmission the mid engine stuff runs (Hewland?)

 

Please go back to my first post in the thread; I knew to keep my mouth shut, but expressed interest in the topic. So you aren’t pleased with my way of trying to keep thread going by playing off all those other “useful” posts that more or less shut the it down.

The only person crying here isn’t me, making Mount Everest out of some grains of sand. Let me know if you need the links where you’ve done the same to me. Or just keep adding your own useful posts demonstrating an inability to handle mild, indirect criticism. Going on about things you had no direct experience with, but then so upset and taking it so personal. I get it way worse than that on here and don’t flip out. Cursing is generally a sign of who is not in control of their self.

I wish you’d go work on shutting down the polysci area the same way you did with this thread … oh wait …
.

 

Thanks for sharing experiences, dguy and rx72c.


If anyone wants to give me mod powers, I will spend a few hours editing the posts of both TeamRX8 and FD Wheel Covers in Carbon to make it seem like they are each rational adults who choose not to snipe at each other. I won't delete their entire posts, just the meaningless bickering.

 

please do, I agree entirely.
.

 

Let’s just drop the hatchet like I’ve suggested before. Move on and enjoy the forum like normal people.

Here’s me dropping it.

 

I mean, nobody to my knowledge has ever made a Ford engine block with a Chevy bellhousing pattern to eliminate the one glaring flaw that Fords have, and besides like 99% of racing transmissions are the big wide Chevy trans to bellhousing pattern.... Seems obvious.

 

I'm of the opinion that with more aftermarket and accessible casting of blocks such as PRPs soon to be released RB setup you'll see people doing just that given that pattern making is being made far easier with both CNC and additive manufacturing. Billet is fantastic and all, but there are many pitfalls for piston dudes - rotaries less so in my opinion, but they're there.

 

@mods the post above is a bot, cut and paste comment from earlier in the thread

 

Do you know what material they were using for the seal?
Would Viton or Teflon likely fix the problem?

 

Very good info in this thread by dguy and rx72c.

I have been brought a set of billet rotary store plates drilled and tapped for 1/2 studs, the rotor housings are semi PP but the tension bolt holes are stock in m. What sorta clearance one would run between the 1/2 studs and the rotor housings? what about tightening torque? It also came with solid corner seals, never used m before so don't know how useful this parts combo is going to be for a streetcar running punp fuel.

 

How quickly do they wear out? And how would you know that they’ve worn out? (Out of curiousity since these ones seem to be pretty popular along with the PAC plates)

 

stripped a few engines with them with less than 1500 miles and over 0.5mm of step wear. Actually yet to strip one that does not have a tonne of step wear.

 

DANG thats even 10X worse then non nitrided stock irons. so clearly a drag only product these..

 

Thanks for all of the messages so far.

I had lost track on the project, but now it seems to be firmly back on again. I read with interest about people's experiences with the plates and am slightly left wondering whether it would be a good plan or not.

The idea is to use it in a circuit application and although many are stating that they are working with racers, it doesn't specifically state the strip down intervals that each engine is going through. There is no point in building this engine if I have to take it to pieces after each and every race.

I have a couple of months before making a full decision, I would like to take it in the direction of a full billet engine as this seems an amazing step, however I just dont want to commit to something that could end up biting me in the ****!

 

You just have to make your own mistakes on that one.

Remember in the '60s Mazda already documented that clearance fit tension bolts in their then aluminum side housings caused cracking from thermal expansion.

If they could have just changed the clearance to stop cracking, they would have. Instead they went to floating tension bolts and two dowels on the engine periphery.

Ofc Mazda was trying to make an engine survive 100k miles of thermal cycling, not a couple miliseconds of intense detonation.

The Wankel Engine
Norbye 1971
section II- Development
Chapter 11- Toyo Kogyo *mazda*
page 272-
"A further cause of the cracking trouble was lack of flexibility in the trochroidal wall *thats rotor housing* and conduction of heat from it to the cold end housings through the bolts holding them together. Improved flexibility and reduced heat transfer were simultaneously achieved by separating the side-bolt bosses from the trochoidal wall, and housings made in this way proved completely resistant to thermal fatigue."

*_ _ _* is me

 

In my opinion there is simply better products out there. The only reason I see people purchasing Billet pro is for the way they look.

 

Ever tried or thought about using any coatings/processes like Cryo or WPC on the plate inserts? Nitriding the plate inserts could be an option too, if they aren't nitrided as is.

 

i agree that is the logic sense and thats also what I thought would be good. But yes I have no proof to say using not 2 but 2 plus all bolts as dowels would not work with alu housings. With stock iron the problem will be even more severe as they expand way less then the alu ones.

I contacted billetrotarystore, where the customer bought the billetpro parts and they said to machine the rotor housings with 0.002’ clearance to the studs. So the studs are 12.69-70mm so I ordered now a 12.75mm reamer. They supplied a dxf file w the hopefully exact coordinates of the bolts vs the center. Unfort they couldn't give me one with the stock dowels which I would have preferred. I plan now to lay a rear housing on the table align its center and bottom and then at least check a few of bolts holes vs the dxf to see how well it turns out.

I asked them 3 times also the tightening torque of the studs but they always ignore that question. So if anyone knows please let me know. The studs are UNF on the nut side.

 

i was wondering about DLC coatings, seems like it would either be the best thing ever, or the worst

 

If locally near the exhaust stroke the surface doesn't exceed the max temp the coating can handle it could as well work. ideally grind flat, nitride, grind again w very fine wheel to remove withe layer and then DLC coat.

 

How traumatic is the application process?

I've only heard of DLC used for things like NASCAR flat tappets, running on hard welded camshafts, trying to survive 500 miles at near 10,000rpm with the intense valve lift characteristics needed for a two valve 5.8l engine that makes well over 900hp. But those are small surface areas, side housings have a lot of surface area, and that surface area has to stay as flat as possible.

 

Its a low temp process like 250*C so normally distortion is not an issue. Personally id try it one plate first then see how it performs against a just nitrided one in the same engine.

i had it done many years ago on a straight aluminum side plate of a small 300cc kart single rotor. There was some flaking from using too little rotor side clearance but apart from that it ran really well

 

Mazda are aware of the technology: https://myukk.xsrv.jp/free_journal/d...CT516_full.pdf and on some telling’s corner seals that where chrome plated before application of DLC found their way into RENESIS engines. There is at least one Japanese producer of DLC treated afte market apex seals, and they are both DLC and WPC treated. Has anyone admitted to using these?

The corner seals are at least shrouded from the worst of combustion heat and have the opportunity to cool a little during the intake and compression phases. Apex seals, not so much but there are also claiims that the black RX8 apex seals are DLC treated.

Side plates are of a different scale and see different service conditions. You also have response to thermal cycling, corrosion, chemical attack etc. to consider if you are looking for any sort of service life. Even the big boys get these sort of calls wrong, witness BMW, Nikasil liners and high sulphur petrol. DLC is definitely beyond my R&D budget.

The new Mazda 8c range extender has HVOF thermal sprayed sideplates. There might be a message in that,