Sleepr-1???? I need your help!!
11-10-02, 06:59 PM
#1
Sleepr-1???? I need your help!!
I put on those EBC Greens and new rotors for a road course track event this weekend and wondering if my brakes are okay.. I am not sure if they were broke in enough before the event but they are hazy looking now on the rotors and the pads looked burned or brownish on the sides?? They also might be warped(?) What should I do? I only made 7 or so laps (1.3 mile laps) on them. I pitted twice and they were smoking???
Also I had bad finder liner rub on every turn. I wore through the drivers side one. So I guess I need stiffer springs? I am using Koni yellow's and eibach pro kit with the konis at there highest purch setting??
Also I had bad finder liner rub on every turn. I wore through the drivers side one. So I guess I need stiffer springs? I am using Koni yellow's and eibach pro kit with the konis at there highest purch setting??
11-10-02, 11:19 PM
#2
EBC Greens aren't track pads, so they might not be up to what you asked of them. I would think they would survive a few laps, though. The smoking makes me think that the calipers may have gotten stuck. That seems unlikely with new pads, but smoking is not normal.
Hazy rotors might not necessarily indicate a problem. Some pads polish the rotors to a mirror finish, others don't. I failed to bed some pads before use properly once and the rotors ended up cracked and heavily groved. As long as you put some street miles (with stops -- not just highway on the way to the track) and let them cool before the track event, they should have been bedded enough. If you swapped them in at the track and then went out, that was bad.
It might be normal to burn the paint off the pads. They could have burned off really quickly if the calipers got stuck.
Replace all your brake fluid. Get some ATE SuperBlue and a power bleeder from http://www.motiveproducts.com/ and flush out all the old stuff. The blue fluid is good brake fluid and it is nice because you can see when the old fluid is gone.
It shoulds like you need some stiffer springs. Get some coil-overs so you can set the ride height and change spring rates easily. A stiffer front sway bar would help, too.
-Max
Hazy rotors might not necessarily indicate a problem. Some pads polish the rotors to a mirror finish, others don't. I failed to bed some pads before use properly once and the rotors ended up cracked and heavily groved. As long as you put some street miles (with stops -- not just highway on the way to the track) and let them cool before the track event, they should have been bedded enough. If you swapped them in at the track and then went out, that was bad.
It might be normal to burn the paint off the pads. They could have burned off really quickly if the calipers got stuck.
Replace all your brake fluid. Get some ATE SuperBlue and a power bleeder from http://www.motiveproducts.com/ and flush out all the old stuff. The blue fluid is good brake fluid and it is nice because you can see when the old fluid is gone.
It shoulds like you need some stiffer springs. Get some coil-overs so you can set the ride height and change spring rates easily. A stiffer front sway bar would help, too.
-Max
11-11-02, 05:37 AM
#3
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Yeah...What Max posted
Except, that I imagine you'll need to add Eibach swaybars to keep the roll control down. The Eibach springs help with minimizing dive and squat but not as much with chassis roll through turns. That's what sway bars control. Try upgrading your sway bars fr/rr BEFORE switching to stiffer springs.
The only brake pads I can wholeheartedly recommend for hard track use and daily street use are the stock Sumitomo '99 Type RS brake pads fr/rr. I use them all the time now (I sold my SSR Comps/Hoosiers to Jaymz, so no need to change wheels and swap pads at the track anymore). The beautiful thing about the Type RS stock pads is that they barely dust at all, whether on the road or at the track--REALLY, I swear! During road use, it takes weeks for me to see a dust build-up (I hardly notice any build-up actually). At the track there's only a faint film of dust at the periphery of the SSR Integral wheel rim. Even with that slight amount...the dust is easily washed away with a high pressure washer!
I just did a track day myself this past Saturday at Putnam Park (my last for the season--I think...?). I drove the car in complete road form--9 x 17, 45-mm SSR Integral wheels with 255/40-17 Yokohama AVS Intermediates all around; Type RS brakes fr/rr; Type RS brake pads fr/rr; H&R Springs; R1 shocks; Eibach sway bars fr/rr.
I had no trouble with brake fade at all...In fact I was overdriving the tires, and they were overheating (that limited my laptimes), but the pads, and the brake pedal were SOLID! The suspension seems to do its job, and I don't have ANY rubbing issues at all.
The upshot was that I managed to keep from pointing by a Speed Yellow Porsche 993 Twin Turbo driver (despite my having my student in the car, and my car being powered by a 102,000-mile motor and turbos!). In fairness to the Porsche 993 TT owner, I think that was ONLY his 2nd time at Putnam Park, while I practically live there
Last March at Putnam Park, I had terrible results with the EBC Redstuffs. I smoked them in one day. My thinking was that if the Redstuffs couldn't hold up to a track day, there's no way the Greenstuffs would make 3 laps! This is why as soon as I received my stock '99 Type RS pads (Sumitomo) from Mazdaspeed, I reboxed the EBC Greenstuffs, and haven't used them since.
BTW, I did my last autocross for the season yersterday (Sunday). It was a very fast course with a heavy braking zone 60 mph down to 15 mph to do 180, U-turn to drive the course in the other direction for the finish. The Type RS brakes and pads performed phenonenally! In case you haven't guessed...I'm very happy with the stock '99 Type RS brakes Oh I won my class (ASP)--by default... no one else ran in ASP
The only brake pads I can wholeheartedly recommend for hard track use and daily street use are the stock Sumitomo '99 Type RS brake pads fr/rr. I use them all the time now (I sold my SSR Comps/Hoosiers to Jaymz, so no need to change wheels and swap pads at the track anymore). The beautiful thing about the Type RS stock pads is that they barely dust at all, whether on the road or at the track--REALLY, I swear! During road use, it takes weeks for me to see a dust build-up (I hardly notice any build-up actually). At the track there's only a faint film of dust at the periphery of the SSR Integral wheel rim. Even with that slight amount...the dust is easily washed away with a high pressure washer!
I just did a track day myself this past Saturday at Putnam Park (my last for the season--I think...?). I drove the car in complete road form--9 x 17, 45-mm SSR Integral wheels with 255/40-17 Yokohama AVS Intermediates all around; Type RS brakes fr/rr; Type RS brake pads fr/rr; H&R Springs; R1 shocks; Eibach sway bars fr/rr.
I had no trouble with brake fade at all...In fact I was overdriving the tires, and they were overheating (that limited my laptimes), but the pads, and the brake pedal were SOLID! The suspension seems to do its job, and I don't have ANY rubbing issues at all.
The upshot was that I managed to keep from pointing by a Speed Yellow Porsche 993 Twin Turbo driver (despite my having my student in the car, and my car being powered by a 102,000-mile motor and turbos!). In fairness to the Porsche 993 TT owner, I think that was ONLY his 2nd time at Putnam Park, while I practically live there
Last March at Putnam Park, I had terrible results with the EBC Redstuffs. I smoked them in one day. My thinking was that if the Redstuffs couldn't hold up to a track day, there's no way the Greenstuffs would make 3 laps! This is why as soon as I received my stock '99 Type RS pads (Sumitomo) from Mazdaspeed, I reboxed the EBC Greenstuffs, and haven't used them since.
BTW, I did my last autocross for the season yersterday (Sunday). It was a very fast course with a heavy braking zone 60 mph down to 15 mph to do 180, U-turn to drive the course in the other direction for the finish. The Type RS brakes and pads performed phenonenally! In case you haven't guessed...I'm very happy with the stock '99 Type RS brakes
Oh I won my class (ASP)--by default... no one else ran in ASP
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-11-02 at 05:45 AM.
11-11-02, 12:33 PM
#5
Thanks for the info Max and sleeper! I had a blast, It was my first time for a road course.. Not sure what the norm is but it was around 1.3 miles per lap and getting around 100mph in the back straight.. I put the ebc on the day before and drove 100+ miles to the track. Not a hole lot of hard braking but what little I did felt great. The first few laps felt very good but my instructor noted I was riding the brakes too much. But hey, it was mt first couple of laps getting used to driving my car like that.. I did boil the fluid once when I came through a corner too fast getting sideways then into the in field. I never let off the brakes the hole time and the pedal was at the floor after I came to a stop. Well I learned a good bit about my car and parts I need in the future but my question is " are my pads toast? What about my rotors? Did I spend $300 for 7 laps?" I think the rotors might be a tad bent but I would think they could turn them out.. But very unpleased with the greenstuff....
11-11-02, 12:47 PM
#6
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YUP! The '99 Type RS pads are exactly the same shape as the US spec pads fr/rr!
Originally posted by ptrhahn
SleepR1... wouldn't the RS pads work in the original stock calipers given that they are the same shape?
SleepR1... wouldn't the RS pads work in the original stock calipers given that they are the same shape?
11-11-02, 12:52 PM
#7
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Skate
It's hard to know what you did to your brakes exactly without inspecting them myself, nor test-driving your car...
From your posts, I don't think you bedded your pads in properly, eventhough you drove 100+miles, you might not have used your brakes hard enough to bed them in.
From your posts, I don't think you bedded your pads in properly, eventhough you drove 100+miles, you might not have used your brakes hard enough to bed them in.
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11-11-02, 12:55 PM
#8
Originally posted by SleepR1
YUP! The '99 Type RS pads are exactly the same shape as the US spec pads fr/rr!
YUP! The '99 Type RS pads are exactly the same shape as the US spec pads fr/rr!
WOW, thats great. Do you feel you have enough stopping power w/99's and these pads on the track? Would you think it would be so w/ the stock brakes?
I've sworn never to put those awful Hawk Blues back on my car, but i need that level of stopping/fade resistance. PFC 93s are another choice, but they still aren't street-worthy and they are EXPENSIVE/hard to find
11-11-02, 07:05 PM
#10
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I can only speak from my experience with the '99 Type RS rotors and calipers. BTW, I have used the RS pads with the Comps/Hoosiers once, and they work fine with sticky tires--actually they work better, since the tires do most of the stopping, not the pads
IMO, the stock Type RS pads are inexpensive enough to give them a try with the US spec rotors and calipers. With the Type RS calipers and rotors, the Type RS stock pads were more than adequate in slowing the FD time after time. The pads bit hard enough to activate ABS using Yokohama AVS Intermediates. The pads did not fade during 25-minute sessions of 8 to 9/10ths road racing at Putnam Park.
Please note that I use Motul 600 RBF fluid, Mazdaspeed stainless steel braided brakelines with DOT-approved tygon coating.
You will have virtually NO DUST during your normal road driving with the Type RS pads. The RS pads are worth the purchase just for the dust-free characteristic alone.
The track usability is just icing on the cake BTW the Type RS pads last awhile, and are very easy on the rotors...
Sound too good to be true? Try a set (fr/rr) and you be the judge. Tell us what your experience is!
IMO, the stock Type RS pads are inexpensive enough to give them a try with the US spec rotors and calipers. With the Type RS calipers and rotors, the Type RS stock pads were more than adequate in slowing the FD time after time. The pads bit hard enough to activate ABS using Yokohama AVS Intermediates. The pads did not fade during 25-minute sessions of 8 to 9/10ths road racing at Putnam Park.
Please note that I use Motul 600 RBF fluid, Mazdaspeed stainless steel braided brakelines with DOT-approved tygon coating.
You will have virtually NO DUST during your normal road driving with the Type RS pads. The RS pads are worth the purchase just for the dust-free characteristic alone.
The track usability is just icing on the cake
BTW the Type RS pads last awhile, and are very easy on the rotors...Sound too good to be true? Try a set (fr/rr) and you be the judge. Tell us what your experience is!
Originally posted by ptrhahn
WOW, thats great. Do you feel you have enough stopping power w/99's and these pads on the track? Would you think it would be so w/ the stock brakes?
I've sworn never to put those awful Hawk Blues back on my car, but i need that level of stopping/fade resistance. PFC 93s are another choice, but they still aren't street-worthy and they are EXPENSIVE/hard to find
WOW, thats great. Do you feel you have enough stopping power w/99's and these pads on the track? Would you think it would be so w/ the stock brakes?
I've sworn never to put those awful Hawk Blues back on my car, but i need that level of stopping/fade resistance. PFC 93s are another choice, but they still aren't street-worthy and they are EXPENSIVE/hard to find
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-11-02 at 07:13 PM.
11-11-02, 07:20 PM
#11
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The pads probably glazed your rotors. Don't bother with turning the rotors, as you'll just take away the rotor's heat-sinking capacity by milling away the iron (which is where the heat goes, interestingly enough)
Check your pad thicknesses. If they're worn down to the backing plates, then you'll need to replace the pads anyway. I wore down the Redstuffs to the plates, and even had caliper piston impressions on the backing plates--I guess I was standing my 240-lbs of body weight on the brake pedal, eh?
Try the Type RS brake pads. Use them as a full fr/rr set. They're available from Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. You can find them at this link
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...0001&langId=-1
Mazdaspeed appears to be changing their policy on parts purchasing privelages for non-racers. They've sold non-stock parts to non-racers, but apparently you will need to be a racer-member to order anything from Mazdaspeed. This means you'll need to submit two race results that are current for the year. Race results can come from bracket drag racing results (time slips don't count), or autocross race results published within your sports car club's newletter.
The Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development membership is the SOLE REASON FOR MY AUTOCROSSING TWO TIMES PER YEAR. My true passion is high speed road racing. The Mazdaspeed parts discount helps me realize that passion
Check your pad thicknesses. If they're worn down to the backing plates, then you'll need to replace the pads anyway. I wore down the Redstuffs to the plates, and even had caliper piston impressions on the backing plates--I guess I was standing my 240-lbs of body weight on the brake pedal, eh?
Try the Type RS brake pads. Use them as a full fr/rr set. They're available from Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. You can find them at this link
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...0001&langId=-1
Mazdaspeed appears to be changing their policy on parts purchasing privelages for non-racers. They've sold non-stock parts to non-racers, but apparently you will need to be a racer-member to order anything from Mazdaspeed. This means you'll need to submit two race results that are current for the year. Race results can come from bracket drag racing results (time slips don't count), or autocross race results published within your sports car club's newletter.
The Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development membership is the SOLE REASON FOR MY AUTOCROSSING TWO TIMES PER YEAR. My true passion is high speed road racing. The Mazdaspeed parts discount helps me realize that passion
Originally posted by sk8world
sleep, so does that mean my brakes are toast if they were not broke in correctly? Or should I try and resurface the rotors and try again? Mike
sleep, so does that mean my brakes are toast if they were not broke in correctly? Or should I try and resurface the rotors and try again? Mike
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-11-02 at 07:27 PM.
11-12-02, 08:23 AM
#14
That sucks, so unless you have competition status you CAN'T buy any of the 99 brake upgrades?... I've always said Mazda is stupid... this would definately solidify my point. You've gotta wonder about a company for whom your money isn't green enough...
11-12-02, 11:00 AM
#15
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from their site:
"MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS DEVELOPMENT will NO LONGER be selling to non racers. You will need to be a registered member of our program, with current race results, to purchase ANY parts from us. You will also need to log in with a valid ID and password, to view our catalog.
It has been our policy in the past that if someone still wished to purchase a competition part, even though they weren't a member, we would still sell it to them. This is longer the case. (It will take some time for us to update all areas of our site to reflect this.)
There are many online stores catering to Mazda performance parts now, and with the new MAZDASPEED performance accessories that should be in Mazda dealerships soon, Mazda owners should be able to find the performance parts they need. Check out the Links Directory at the Mazda Performance Corner for help finding parts.
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS DEVELOPMENT will be refocusing our business activities around our Team Support members and racing. We are busy making improvements to our site for the benefit of our racers."
It has been our policy in the past that if someone still wished to purchase a competition part, even though they weren't a member, we would still sell it to them. This is longer the case. (It will take some time for us to update all areas of our site to reflect this.)
There are many online stores catering to Mazda performance parts now, and with the new MAZDASPEED performance accessories that should be in Mazda dealerships soon, Mazda owners should be able to find the performance parts they need. Check out the Links Directory at the Mazda Performance Corner for help finding parts.
MAZDASPEED MOTORSPORTS DEVELOPMENT will be refocusing our business activities around our Team Support members and racing. We are busy making improvements to our site for the benefit of our racers."
SleepR1: If you keep talking about the 99' Type RS brakes like this I'm going to have you shot. I can feel the hole burning in my pocket as I type this.
Semi-related Question: does anyone know if you can get the Spirit R brakes here? AFAIK, they are identical to the RS brakes but the calipers are finished in Red from the factory (or the supplier, or maybe Sumitomo sends them out for powdercoating) and the rotors are either cross drilled or have cast in venting holes. See http://www.rx-7.mazda.co.jp/brake.html
Last edited by Coulthard Fan; 11-12-02 at 11:13 AM.
11-12-02, 01:07 PM
#16
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Mazdaspeed
is a Competition Parts Support program. AFIK, Mazda is the only company that offers team racer support. Porsche and BMW do not, and they're supposed to be about racing?
You might as well start autocrossing. It's only two races per season. The membership privelages are worth the PITA. Who knows--you might be the Michael Schumacher of autocrossing??
You might as well start autocrossing. It's only two races per season. The membership privelages are worth the PITA. Who knows--you might be the Michael Schumacher of autocrossing??
Originally posted by ptrhahn
That sucks, so unless you have competition status you CAN'T buy any of the 99 brake upgrades?... I've always said Mazda is stupid... this would definately solidify my point. You've gotta wonder about a company for whom your money isn't green enough...
That sucks, so unless you have competition status you CAN'T buy any of the 99 brake upgrades?... I've always said Mazda is stupid... this would definately solidify my point. You've gotta wonder about a company for whom your money isn't green enough...
11-12-02, 02:03 PM
#17
Sleep, My pads look near new as far as thickness goes. Sorry to keep asking the same questions but I will not be racing anymore until March. So what I am trying to find out is do I need to replace my pads and rotors or will they clean up and be usable for street driving??? The other reason I was thinking of having the rotors turned is I think I might have warped them a hair. I here a squick that makes me think the are slightly warped. As far as the pads go I will be using something else for my next event but will these be okay for the street? If I did notr bead in correctly what is the down side?
Are the 99 rotors bigger? I thought there was a upgrade in brakes for that year?? Mike
Are the 99 rotors bigger? I thought there was a upgrade in brakes for that year?? Mike
11-12-02, 05:31 PM
#18
Lives on the Forum
They'll be fine. Just keep using them on the road, and the film laid down by the EBC Greenstuffs onto the brake rotors will even out eventually.
I doubt you warped your rotors. Rotors don't warp. The film laid down by the brake pads is uneven, because the pads were not bedded-in properly.
The squealing will go away--unless you forgot to replace your anti-squeal shim plates when the pads were installed. I always install these even when I run the Porterfield R4E race pads...I hate that squealing sound too!
The EBC Greenstuffs will be fine on the road. They might even be fine by the time your next driving event comes around, as the Greenstuffs will finally be bedded in by then!
The '99 Type RS and '00 RZ, and '01 Spirit R brake rotors and calipers are larger than the US spec brake calipers and rotors up front. The rear rotors are also larger, but the single floating caliper is the same size as the US spec rear calipers. I prefer the '99 RS brakes (over the RZ and Spirit R rotors) because I DON'T like cross-drilled rotors for track racing. The less metal there is, the less heat-sinking capacity there is, and the higher the likelihood of brake fade.
I doubt you warped your rotors. Rotors don't warp. The film laid down by the brake pads is uneven, because the pads were not bedded-in properly.
The squealing will go away--unless you forgot to replace your anti-squeal shim plates when the pads were installed. I always install these even when I run the Porterfield R4E race pads...I hate that squealing sound too!
The EBC Greenstuffs will be fine on the road. They might even be fine by the time your next driving event comes around, as the Greenstuffs will finally be bedded in by then!
The '99 Type RS and '00 RZ, and '01 Spirit R brake rotors and calipers are larger than the US spec brake calipers and rotors up front. The rear rotors are also larger, but the single floating caliper is the same size as the US spec rear calipers. I prefer the '99 RS brakes (over the RZ and Spirit R rotors) because I DON'T like cross-drilled rotors for track racing. The less metal there is, the less heat-sinking capacity there is, and the higher the likelihood of brake fade.
Originally posted by sk8world
Sleep, My pads look near new as far as thickness goes. Sorry to keep asking the same questions but I will not be racing anymore until March. So what I am trying to find out is do I need to replace my pads and rotors or will they clean up and be usable for street driving??? The other reason I was thinking of having the rotors turned is I think I might have warped them a hair. I here a squick that makes me think the are slightly warped. As far as the pads go I will be using something else for my next event but will these be okay for the street? If I did notr bead in correctly what is the down side?
Are the 99 rotors bigger? I thought there was a upgrade in brakes for that year?? Mike
Sleep, My pads look near new as far as thickness goes. Sorry to keep asking the same questions but I will not be racing anymore until March. So what I am trying to find out is do I need to replace my pads and rotors or will they clean up and be usable for street driving??? The other reason I was thinking of having the rotors turned is I think I might have warped them a hair. I here a squick that makes me think the are slightly warped. As far as the pads go I will be using something else for my next event but will these be okay for the street? If I did notr bead in correctly what is the down side?
Are the 99 rotors bigger? I thought there was a upgrade in brakes for that year?? Mike
Last edited by SleepR1; 11-12-02 at 05:34 PM.
11-12-02, 10:24 PM
#19
Re: Mazdaspeed
Originally posted by SleepR1
is a Competition Parts Support program. AFIK, Mazda is the only company that offers team racer support. Porsche and BMW do not, and they're supposed to be about racing?
You might as well start autocrossing. It's only two races per season. The membership privelages are worth the PITA. Who knows--you might be the Michael Schumacher of autocrossing??
is a Competition Parts Support program. AFIK, Mazda is the only company that offers team racer support. Porsche and BMW do not, and they're supposed to be about racing?
You might as well start autocrossing. It's only two races per season. The membership privelages are worth the PITA. Who knows--you might be the Michael Schumacher of autocrossing??
Its almost as asinine as a four-seater w/ no torque and suicide doors... oops, did i say that? :-)
11-13-02, 10:08 AM
#20
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Originally posted by SleepR1
.
The squealing will go away--unless you forgot to replace your anti-squeal shim plates when the pads were installed. I always install these even when I run the Porterfield R4E race pads...I hate that squealing sound too!
.
The squealing will go away--unless you forgot to replace your anti-squeal shim plates when the pads were installed. I always install these even when I run the Porterfield R4E race pads...I hate that squealing sound too!
Mark